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Robert, thanks for the rundown on the Onyx. I know I could be creative with the number of interfaces I have, but I have some concerns about using too many devices in the chain.
Ultimately, I'd like to have one device connecting everything together or into the 003.
I love the interface on Logic 8.
Too many mics, not enough preamps
#15
Jim Dalrymple 
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 05:34 AM
MultiQuote
#16
BoxOfSnoo
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 06:28 AM
I have an Onyx Satellite, which is well reported on... but some of the larger Onyx pres (400f I believe) are not. Check the Mackie boards before jumping.
You may want to consider the Presonus Firepod instead. 8 channel firewire and you can daisy chain multiple units together.
It seems the limitation is clearly not the preamps, it's Pro Tools. If Logic 8 works well, why not use that and dump PT?
You may want to consider the Presonus Firepod instead. 8 channel firewire and you can daisy chain multiple units together.
It seems the limitation is clearly not the preamps, it's Pro Tools. If Logic 8 works well, why not use that and dump PT?
#17
clydicus
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 07:00 AM
Just shut up and record. Having all those mics up are just adding noise. But more importantly, you are falling into the trap of focusing too much energy on your gear and purchasing more gear. You have plenty of gear. "Are You Experienced?" and "Sgt. Peppers" were both recording on FOUR TRACKS.
Quit over thinking it. Hit 'record' and go.
Quit over thinking it. Hit 'record' and go.
#18
Jim Dalrymple
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 07:09 AM
clydicus. that could be true. Two awesome albums to quote in your post :-)
#19
Jim Dalrymple
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 07:11 AM
BoxOfSnoo, I'll check out the 400f. Presonus is certainly another I could check out. Anyone have any experience with that gear. I have one of the smaller units and it works well.
#20
medienhexer
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 07:26 AM
Hi Jim
I found Logic 8 pro to be the most efficient software for the mac by the sheer number of tracks and plugins you can squeeze out of your box, Digital Performer being a close second. The Onyx series come with tracktion2 which is great for tracking if you trust a windows XP under bootcamp..
But I used Logic 8 without hickups as well. And you've got to love the convolution reverb and the other plugins!
The Presonus stuff is okay, really, but if you can afford the extra buck, go Mackie. The Mackies offer a great clarity which lets you her "into the room" on the overheads which some of the less expensive gear lacks. And they give some sweet punch on Toms and snare. Ah and you can plug your Bass and guitar into the hiZ-inputs. They work great.
There have been bad reports on a whining noise in the Onyx 400 rack unit. No complaints on the firewire-option as far as I can tell. And owners of the 400 were offered free repair of that issue as far as I remember,
If you don't intend to mix the tracks yourself and are happy with the audio editing under Logic 8, I can see no reason to stick with the DIGI003. Pro Tools is professional software, PT le always feels like wearing S when you're really an XL-guy.
I found Logic 8 pro to be the most efficient software for the mac by the sheer number of tracks and plugins you can squeeze out of your box, Digital Performer being a close second. The Onyx series come with tracktion2 which is great for tracking if you trust a windows XP under bootcamp..
But I used Logic 8 without hickups as well. And you've got to love the convolution reverb and the other plugins!
The Presonus stuff is okay, really, but if you can afford the extra buck, go Mackie. The Mackies offer a great clarity which lets you her "into the room" on the overheads which some of the less expensive gear lacks. And they give some sweet punch on Toms and snare. Ah and you can plug your Bass and guitar into the hiZ-inputs. They work great.
There have been bad reports on a whining noise in the Onyx 400 rack unit. No complaints on the firewire-option as far as I can tell. And owners of the 400 were offered free repair of that issue as far as I remember,
If you don't intend to mix the tracks yourself and are happy with the audio editing under Logic 8, I can see no reason to stick with the DIGI003. Pro Tools is professional software, PT le always feels like wearing S when you're really an XL-guy.
#21
Jim Dalrymple
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 08:28 AM
medienhexer, thanks for the comments. After all the recommendations, I've been looking through Mackie's gear -- some nice looking stuff.
I have really been getting into PT the last few months, but Logic is the one I know the best. I don't want to quit on it yet though :-)
I think my favorite feature to play with in Logic 8 is comps. I usually play through a solo, but mixing and matching was a blast.
I have really been getting into PT the last few months, but Logic is the one I know the best. I don't want to quit on it yet though :-)
I think my favorite feature to play with in Logic 8 is comps. I usually play through a solo, but mixing and matching was a blast.
#22 Guest__*
Posted 26 June 2008 - 08:38 AM
REGARDING: " Now, I know that is not a perfect solution, especially if you are going to be recording something to send to a professional audio engineer. Ultimately, if I'm going to send audio out to be mixed, I'll want more control over how the audio is recorded instead of having it coming from a cobbled-together Aggregate Device. However, in a pinch, it's great to be able to add another device and get the number of inputs you need."
This is the perfect solution in that you have 16 audio preamps (/A to D converters?) available on 16 tracks in Logic. As long as the sound of the preamps and A/D converters is acceptable you have your solution in hand. Perhaps your A/D converters are limited in bit depth (16-bit) and sample rate (44.1/48 kHz) and you would like to record at 24-bit and a higher sample rate. In that case new hardware would be called for, however remember that many of the early all digital recordings (Donald Fagens "The Nightfly" comes to mind) were recorded at 16-bit depth and most likely 44.1 kHz sample rate (not really sure on the sample rate on that album, but it should have been limited to 44.1 or 48 kHz during that era -- 1982) and they sound great, even today.
REGARDING: "Ultimately, if I'm going to send audio out to be mixed, I'll want more control over how the audio is recorded instead of having it coming from a cobbled-together Aggregate Device."
Microphone selection (having a decent mic locker) and placement of microphones in a decent enough room, along with appropriate micing techniques (X/Y, spaced pair, etc.) is where you want to look for control. Move the microphone around on the source and continuously monitor the sound until you find the sweet spot then record with the microphone(s) in that position(s). Also don't forget about Direct Injection (DI) for Bass Guitar, Guitar and other electric instruments. Sometimes DI sounds best rather than micing an amplifier. Recording is really about fun and experimentation to achieve the best results with your skills and equipment.
Finally why not mix the album yourself in Logic or in Pro Tools (do you lack adequate monitoring?). Then if you like you could have the final mastered at a good mastering facility for final sweetening, level balancing between tracks, etc.
This is the perfect solution in that you have 16 audio preamps (/A to D converters?) available on 16 tracks in Logic. As long as the sound of the preamps and A/D converters is acceptable you have your solution in hand. Perhaps your A/D converters are limited in bit depth (16-bit) and sample rate (44.1/48 kHz) and you would like to record at 24-bit and a higher sample rate. In that case new hardware would be called for, however remember that many of the early all digital recordings (Donald Fagens "The Nightfly" comes to mind) were recorded at 16-bit depth and most likely 44.1 kHz sample rate (not really sure on the sample rate on that album, but it should have been limited to 44.1 or 48 kHz during that era -- 1982) and they sound great, even today.
REGARDING: "Ultimately, if I'm going to send audio out to be mixed, I'll want more control over how the audio is recorded instead of having it coming from a cobbled-together Aggregate Device."
Microphone selection (having a decent mic locker) and placement of microphones in a decent enough room, along with appropriate micing techniques (X/Y, spaced pair, etc.) is where you want to look for control. Move the microphone around on the source and continuously monitor the sound until you find the sweet spot then record with the microphone(s) in that position(s). Also don't forget about Direct Injection (DI) for Bass Guitar, Guitar and other electric instruments. Sometimes DI sounds best rather than micing an amplifier. Recording is really about fun and experimentation to achieve the best results with your skills and equipment.
Finally why not mix the album yourself in Logic or in Pro Tools (do you lack adequate monitoring?). Then if you like you could have the final mastered at a good mastering facility for final sweetening, level balancing between tracks, etc.
#23
ampstudios
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 09:12 AM
Jim,
I wouldn't worry about too many devices in the chain unless you are doing purist music styles like classical and jazz. You wouldn't believe the chains most studios use to get the sound. Especially in this digital world. The more processing, the warmer it sounds. Mind you were talking multiple thousand dollar pieces of gear connected together not low end stuff that adds more color, but one line level chain extra won't change much at all!
I have a 002 at my house that I use for my home studio and I can confirm that you can use the SPDIF connectors and the ADAT inputs at the same time. You have 18 inputs in all to use simultaneously.
As far as the Onyx goes, great for a home studio. The only Mackie product I actually like the sound of. It beats Presonus' low end stuff by far.
I wouldn't worry about too many devices in the chain unless you are doing purist music styles like classical and jazz. You wouldn't believe the chains most studios use to get the sound. Especially in this digital world. The more processing, the warmer it sounds. Mind you were talking multiple thousand dollar pieces of gear connected together not low end stuff that adds more color, but one line level chain extra won't change much at all!
I have a 002 at my house that I use for my home studio and I can confirm that you can use the SPDIF connectors and the ADAT inputs at the same time. You have 18 inputs in all to use simultaneously.
As far as the Onyx goes, great for a home studio. The only Mackie product I actually like the sound of. It beats Presonus' low end stuff by far.
#24
ampstudios
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 09:28 AM
Jim,
comping in Pro Tools is not hard at all either. It is a staple and how most vocal tracks are now done. Every album I do has a comped lead vocal and quite a few other things as well. Use Playlists in PT to record different takes, then swap between them and place them on a clean playlist. You can use copy and paste, or you can use the multi tool to grab and slide to a new track. I usually do it the old fashioned way as I used to work on Neve and SSL consoles all the time. I record on different tracks, use the mutes on my controller to test different takes and then grab the parts and slide to a comp track. Works really fast. Logic's comp seems a little bit slicker, but I expect Pro Tools to implement something similar soon. However, I'll probably stick to what I know as I'm really fast at it.
I would definitely have a studio mix your stuff and not try to do it yourself if you are releasing it for sale. I never mix my stuff at home unless it is a demo. Proper studios have much better acoustics to mix in, plus way more gear than you could ever afford. Old tube gear etc. really makes a difference in the mix, especially on rock and pop albums. Plus, most DAW reverbs just don't cut it yet unless they use have your CPU power. Hardware units like the Lexicon 960L still blow them away, not to mention real old plates. The emulations just aren't close.
I may get Logic for my house as well, but it has nothing to do with inputs etc. Logic is better for songwriting and doing Midi tracks, but the editing in my opinion is still much harder than PT. If you are simply tracking your band, PT should be great and will be much easier to transfer to a studio for the mix.
Good luck with it all!
comping in Pro Tools is not hard at all either. It is a staple and how most vocal tracks are now done. Every album I do has a comped lead vocal and quite a few other things as well. Use Playlists in PT to record different takes, then swap between them and place them on a clean playlist. You can use copy and paste, or you can use the multi tool to grab and slide to a new track. I usually do it the old fashioned way as I used to work on Neve and SSL consoles all the time. I record on different tracks, use the mutes on my controller to test different takes and then grab the parts and slide to a comp track. Works really fast. Logic's comp seems a little bit slicker, but I expect Pro Tools to implement something similar soon. However, I'll probably stick to what I know as I'm really fast at it.
I would definitely have a studio mix your stuff and not try to do it yourself if you are releasing it for sale. I never mix my stuff at home unless it is a demo. Proper studios have much better acoustics to mix in, plus way more gear than you could ever afford. Old tube gear etc. really makes a difference in the mix, especially on rock and pop albums. Plus, most DAW reverbs just don't cut it yet unless they use have your CPU power. Hardware units like the Lexicon 960L still blow them away, not to mention real old plates. The emulations just aren't close.
I may get Logic for my house as well, but it has nothing to do with inputs etc. Logic is better for songwriting and doing Midi tracks, but the editing in my opinion is still much harder than PT. If you are simply tracking your band, PT should be great and will be much easier to transfer to a studio for the mix.
Good luck with it all!
#25
Jim Dalrymple
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 10:02 AM
MacPCJustCreate, Some good things to consider there. I don't want to do the mixing because I think that's something I should leave to the pros. I think I have adequate monitoring, but to be honest, I know full well I don't have the skill to complete it as well as other people :-)
How about that for honesty
How about that for honesty
#26
Jim Dalrymple
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 10:04 AM
ampstudios, that is interesting. I get your meaning though, having the low-end inputs wouldn't cut it, but still nice to see others are daisy chaining things too :-)
#27
Jim Dalrymple
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Posted 26 June 2008 - 10:09 AM
It must have been something working on a Neve. How do you find the plug-in representations of the Neve?
I have done some comping in Pro Tools using the playlist, I just thought Logic's was slick. I do rough mixes and comps in Pro Tools, but usually only for the band and a few others to check out to see if we like it or not.
So, as an audio pro if I told you I recorded this stuff through a Mackie and 003 Factory using AKG mics, would you be comfortable that I had a good setup and sound? I realize there is so many other things that go into making up the sound, but generally would you be comfortable with that?
I have done some comping in Pro Tools using the playlist, I just thought Logic's was slick. I do rough mixes and comps in Pro Tools, but usually only for the band and a few others to check out to see if we like it or not.
So, as an audio pro if I told you I recorded this stuff through a Mackie and 003 Factory using AKG mics, would you be comfortable that I had a good setup and sound? I realize there is so many other things that go into making up the sound, but generally would you be comfortable with that?
#28 Guest__*
Posted 26 June 2008 - 01:42 PM
"I think I have adequate monitoring, but to be honest, I know full well I don't have the skill to complete it as well as other people. How about that for honesty"
That's great. You still could do rough mixes to get an idea of what you want the final mix by the Pro's to sound like. It could be useful and could pay in reduced mixing time to have an idea of how you want the end product to turn out.
I recommend that you clean up your files before taking it to a Pro to be mixed. Get rid of any extraneous tracks and audio from the file and have all audio tracks correctly labeled. If you are taking just the audio files (vice a Logic file and supporting audio files) to be dumped into someone else's system have the files very organized with logical intuitive file names and have good documentation so that you can minimize the time it takes for the Pro to get up and running. The better organized you are the better things will turn out and the easier it will be to accomplish your goals. Make sure you have your files in the correct format and ask the Pro what they will need to make their job easier.
That's great. You still could do rough mixes to get an idea of what you want the final mix by the Pro's to sound like. It could be useful and could pay in reduced mixing time to have an idea of how you want the end product to turn out.
I recommend that you clean up your files before taking it to a Pro to be mixed. Get rid of any extraneous tracks and audio from the file and have all audio tracks correctly labeled. If you are taking just the audio files (vice a Logic file and supporting audio files) to be dumped into someone else's system have the files very organized with logical intuitive file names and have good documentation so that you can minimize the time it takes for the Pro to get up and running. The better organized you are the better things will turn out and the easier it will be to accomplish your goals. Make sure you have your files in the correct format and ask the Pro what they will need to make their job easier.
