[Jim Dalrymple]

"That's great. You still could do rough mixes to get an idea of what you want the final mix by the Pro's to sound like. It could be useful and could pay in reduced mixing time to have an idea of how you want the end product to turn out."

Oh yeah, that I do. I have some great plug-ins from McDSP that I use to do the rough mixes. I've sent those to the mixer, so he has an idea of my thoughts on the sound. Not something I'd want to be released though :-)

I already contacted the guy to make sure I'm giving him everything he needs. I even sent him some files from a song so he could have a listen. He had some suggestions that would make things easier and I'll make those changes.

[lrdntwnd]

I recently picked up a Pre-8 from MOTU to use with Logic. I love it. I don't need many inputs right now, so the 8 pre-amps are more than adequate for my purposes. But, you can daisy chain them using S/PIDF for additional inputs. And, of course, it has Firewire to connect directly to my MacBook Pro.

I was looking at the ONYX boards too and talked to some of my friends who work at a Sam Ash Store and they said that the quality of Mackie these days isn't what it used to be and that they've had quite a few customers displeased with the ONYX boards.

So, you might want to check out some of the stuff from MOTU.

[ampstudios]

Jim,
Like you say there is so much more that goes into it. I've heard the worst sounding stuff from awesome gear and decent to really good stuff from mediocre gear. At times, us techies like to forget that it is really all about the music and the musicians. That being said though, I can get a much better sound on great gear than I can on low end gear. However, I can still get a lot better sound on low end gear than a non-professional on high end gear.

The most important things in the setup is 1. the instruments themselves (how good they sound, how good they're played, and how well they're tuned etc. 2. is the room- that's the hardest thing to overcome with home studios ( best thing is to mic close and ad reverb etc. in the mix to make it sound natural. 3. is micing technique and making sure everything is phasing well down to mono. I cannot tell you how important phase is! You can do a lot with sound now days, but if two mics are slightly out of phase, or more than two, it gets messy real fast and will never make a great sound in the mix.

So, that being said, you have nothing to apologize for with your equipment. Yes, there is a lot better equipment out there, but if you use what you have right, any pro worth his salt should be able to make a great sounding mix out of it.

Even when doing your own stuff, the biggest thing is to really listen to all the little nuances etc. and to try different things even if they don't "follow the rules." Don't worry about how much processing your doing or how long a chain your going through, as long as it sounds good to you in the end, that is all that matters. For those mixing at home, don't hesitate to use analog outboard gear as inserts on tracks in your DAW. If you have outboard processing, use it, don't just let it sit during the mix and only use it for tracking. When digital first came out, the big thing was "once it's digital don't change it back to analog or you'll lose too much sound quality, stay digital." As converters have improved and we've gone to 24 bit and now even 96kHZ for some, that is a mute point. In the studio, it is not uncommon for most tracks to go back to the analog world at least once, but sometimes even two or three times.

Long answer to a short question I guess, but hopefully that helps.

[ampstudios]

Jim,
Forgot your question about plugin representations. As a whole, they don't come close to the original in my opinion. That being said though, there is quite a few great sounding plugz that while not as good as the original can really give you a great sound as well. I haven't had the opportunity to work with the Neve plugz yet. Bombfactory and UAD do some great plugz though. In particular I am really impressed with the Bombfactory Fairchild 660 and 670 compressors. Awesome plugz that add some great punch to vocals, VOs, guitars and even drums. Not as good as the original units (barring there in good condition of course), but still fantastic in their own right. The LA2 plugz on the other hand completely suck in my opinion. We have a Teletronix LA2A (serial #13), all original, that is totally awesome, the plugz aren't even in the ballpark. Same with the LA3 and 1176 plugz. The Pultec EQ plugz are decent but once again don't compare with the originals. We have the original Pultec EQP1As tube versions as well as the solid state. We also have some Tubetech "remakes" of them. All of them sound way better than the plugz, but the plugz are still useful and sound good. The Tube Pultech sounds the best, then the Tubetech, then the Pultec solid state, and finally the plugin. If you have the money, the Tubetech is the best bang for your buck. The units are fat, warm, lots of character, and one quarter the price of the original Pultecs.

As far as plugz go, my favorites are: 1. Bombfactory Fairchild 660 2. Waves L2 limiter (although the hardware unit blows it away as well interestingly enough since it should be the exact same algorithms) 3. Massenburg Design works EQ 4. Altiverb 5. TL Space 6. The wholes Waves Gold or better yet Platinum bundle. I can't stand the Waves update plan, but they really do make great stuff.

[digit1]

Unless you want to invest some serious cash into gear you may not need every day the BEST thing to do in your situation IF you want your music to be recorded the best possible way) is to RENT higher end stuff for the session requiring more than what you own.
A great sounding recording chain is vital and it will only sound as good as its weakest link.
IF you use great mic pres with great A/D converters (matched by great mics/instruments/performers) your project will sound excellent even before it's mixed. There is little or nothing that can be done during mixing to compensate for a mediocre recording chain.
So, my suggestion to anyone in this situation is to RENT the gear you can't afford to buy.
If that is not possible, for whatever reason, then my next suggestion is: invest in a GREAT STEREO Mic pre and a GREAT A/D converter and do the tracks separately. I'd rather have a great sounding two-channel recording chain than a mediocre 12+ ch. setups.
You can have the band play the song(s) live for feel and then, re-record the individual tracks one at a time. For the drums, use the best mic pres for snare and kick and/or overhead. Make due for the rest...
The GIGO law applies here as well: You get out what you put in...
My 0.2 (actually lees, considering the dollar is so low...)

[Jim Dalrymple]

lrdntwnd, thanks for the advice, I'm checking the boards to see what problems people are having. I hate dealing with faulty equipment.

[Jim Dalrymple]

ampstudios, thanks for such a detailed response. I researched all of the gear suggestions from the forums yesterday and there are some interesting choices. The room is probably my biggest challenge.

I've got a couple of pro mixers that have offered to help, so I'm sending them files to make sure they're getting what they need. I have faith -- and I know nobody wants to hear something I mix :-)

[Jim Dalrymple]

digit1, I never really considered renting. You mentioned using great AD converters -- do you like the Apogee gear?

[silentway]

There are also 8-channel mic preamps with ADAT optical output to take advantage of the optical input on many interfaces including the 003. That'll give you twelve mic preamps (003's four plus the new mic pre's eight) with 4 line inputs (003). Just be sure to set your interface to clock off of its optical input or use a word clock cable to send clock to the mic preamp.
Examples are the Focusrite OctoPre (when equipped with the Focusrite optical option card):
http://www.zzounds.c.../item--FOCMH435
http://www.zzounds.c...item--FOCOCTOAD
The Focusrite Octopre LE (with it's own optical option card):
http://www.zzounds.c...item--FOCOCTOLE
http://www.zzounds.c...em--FOCOCTOLEAD
Or the Presonus Digimax FS:
http://www.zzounds.c...m--PRSDIGIMAXFS
There are others too.

[silentway]

Jim Dalrymple said:

I never really considered renting.

(warning: self-promotion...)
I run a recording studio equipment rental business in San Francisco. Are you near the Bay Area? If so, here are details on mic preamps and other rental equipment:

http://www.silentway...rentallist.html



(self-promotion is over, safe to return to your day-to-day activities...)

[Jim Dalrymple]

silentway, I do have the M-Audio Octane connected to the ADAT port on the 003. And there's nothing wrong with a little self promotion. I'm in Nova Scotia, Canada, although my office is in the Bay area.

[silentway]

Jim Dalrymple said:

silentway, I do have the M-Audio Octane connected to the ADAT port on the 003.

Good, then you are getting more out of the 003.

If you are curious, try a comparison of the 003 and Octane A/D converters by comparing the analog and digital outputs of the Octane. Listen to the same mic in the same Octane mic pre channel, comparing the digital out (optical to the 003) and analog out (analog out to the 003's analog line in).

Another more subtle comparison is to compare the two clocks: again using the same mic in the same pre channel, listen to the difference between two conditions: 1) clocking the 003 off of the optical input from the Octane, and 2) using a BNC word clock cable to clock the Octane off of the 003 (the 003 is the clock master and the Octane's sample rate knob is on "external") .

This compares the clock of the two units. It's the same Octane A/D converter and mic preamp in each case.

Jim Dalrymple said:

I'm in Nova Scotia, Canada, although my office is in the Bay area.

That's a heckuva commute!

[digit1]

I use Apogee but, you can look at renting different brands. I don't know what music you are planning to record. Each converter has its place. Ideally, one would have a few different ones but, that's not always possible.


For pres I use mic pres from Millennia, Universal Audio and TL-Audio.
I have done A/B comparisons between my PSX-100 SE and the Mytek - the latter had a more open sound for ceertain acoustic instruments. My classical guitars, for example, sounded clearer in the bass and each note in a chord was more distinguishable. I preferred the Apogee for drums, bass, certain pianos and voice. But, it all depends on the genre and the sound one desires.


Finally, a better clock alone would make your recording sound better as well and, normally, better converters have better clocks as well. You can also rent a Big Ben, for example, and have your rented converter (as well as the Digi 003) listen to its clock. You WILL hear the difference :) My favorite sounding A/D/A, if I had to use only one brand, would be the Lavry Gold.(122 and 924).

Look also at the Lavry Blue.

[yikesboy1317]

I'm in agreement with ampstudios on this one.
And like others in this thread, I'm going to make a recommendation for your Jim. Being a longtime Cubase guy, I was very interested in the new Yamaha-Steinberg alliance back several years ago. The latest Cubase 4.1 software is probably the most stable and feature-filled experience on the Mac IMHO and now, there are some really good looking pieces of hardware on the way. They're called the MR816 and I believe that there's two variations on them. I know,I know, yet more Firewire interfaces to muddy the waters...
But, check this out: 8 pristine Yamaha made quality class A mic pre's, zero latency monitoring with the included convolution reverb and morphing compressors/EQ on board! You can daisy chain via Firewire up to 3 of them for a total of 24 mic or line pre's and the news from the NAMM Show in Nashville has been really good about them. These babies come out of Yamaha's Japanese plant apparently too so they are built to last.
Anyway, just more food for thought - come on over to really good sounding hardware (and even the software sounds better - check out the floating point advantage that Cubase offers over the others...).
Yikesboy