[Rambo66]

UPDATE: APPLE FIXED MY COMPUTER FOR FREE!!!!

So, many of you have most likely followed the situation with my G5, I called Apple one day last week (4 times) and spoke with FOUR different Customer Service Supervisors ALL who were extremely professional and polite but ultimately said they could not justify repairing my computer using the exception code. I was left feeling mad, taken advantage of, aggravated and nearly at the end of my rope.

The following day I received an e-mail from Apple asking me to rate my experience with their customer service via a survey. I completed the survey and included a very long essay in the notes section they provided regarding my experience (I copied it into one of my earlier posts if you are interested in reading it).

The day after completing the Apple survey I received an e-mail from a friend who informed me that a mutual friend was dying of cancer. An experimental drug had been keeping his tumors at bay for nearly 7 years wasn't working anymore and he was home with hospice and not looking at very much time left. This news struck me really hard (I am a cancer survivor and this friend and I initially bonded over our shared experience) and I had a light bulb moment. I decided then and there that I was going to let go of all of the anger, resentment and ill-will I was holding regarding my computer and experience with Apple. I resigned myself to being one of the unlucky customers who bought this product and even though I went out of my way to have Apple remedy the situation, I had to wrap my head around the fact that it wasn't happening and to move on. So, I did. I left it behind me.....all the negativity and hostility. I'll be honest that I sorta felt embarrassed at the thought of posting here again because I had been on such a tear and so impassioned about my battle. But for my health and mental well being I needed to leave it behind. I was still bummed about the situation but I felt much lighter.

Yesterday I received a phone call from Stephanie at Apple who said she saw I had spoken with a number of supervisors last week and we were unable to come to a satisfactory resolution to my computer situation. She went on to say she had reviewed my case and decided to extend the 'exception code' to me. She gave me a choice of authorized repair centers and I dropped it off last night.

The tech working on my computer called me this morning to say the person who checked the computer in last night didn't write what was wrong with it and if it was anything other than it not powering on and booting up then I should call back and speak with him because he had gotten the computer to power on and boot up numerous times. I spoke with him this afternoon and he said he reseated the board and the video card and then powered on and it booted right up. He then pulled the video card and again it started right up. He replaced the video card and powered and booted it up again. He unplugged it and let it sit for a while and retried it numerous times, working perfectly.

So, when all is said and done, although Apple did cause me all sorts of aggravation and made me jump through some hoops...they ultimately came through and offered the free repair of the computer. I feel good about the situation.

My suggestion is when dealing with Apple's Customer Service Supervisors, calmly state your case, be polite but firm. Let them know you want to be happy with Apple, make them aware of how loyal you are and how many years of computer buying you have ahead of you. If you are a calm, intelligent, reasonable person who makes them aware of the power of your dollar........you may have a chance.

Good luck everyone. Hopefully I won't be posting her again (I'll keep my fingers crossed).

[macbabe]

Sounds like it worked out well for you on several levels, Rambo. I'm glad your computer situation is resolved; now you can give more attention and comfort to your friend since you won't be worrying with this. The rest of us will continue looking for resolution. After all, we have nothing else to lose at this point.

[tommthorsen]

--- thanks for at least an idea of where it might begin - every bit of info helps. There is an interesting video of a guy who uses a heatgun for the x-box 360 microcrack problem from their chip issues - it would be amazing if it works. Will do a little more research before attacking anything. There are a lot of xbox 360 videos on YouTube so will be watching a bunch first.

If anyone wants to see one
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ofoAiENVjvg

Another video is over the top - a guy removes and replaces a ball chip from a cell phone (not for faint of heart or eyes)
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JB1InDsWCjQ

[Droid]

tommthorsen said:

--- thanks for at least an idea of where it might begin - every bit of info helps. There is an interesting video of a guy who uses a heatgun for the x-box 360 microcrack problem from their chip issues - it would be amazing if it works. Will do a little more research before attacking anything. There are a lot of xbox 360 videos on YouTube so will be watching a bunch first.

I'm not sure leaving the heat sink on is a good idea (Xbox guy), but the reballing looks like a better option.

Here is the only image I could find of the rear of the board. (doh - I didn't take one when mine was open).
http://us.st12.yimg.....com/I/lovemacs2042365008173

The silver cover in the 'bend of the pipe' has this BGA chip under it.
http://pixelchimp.ne...-board/g5-3.jpg
http://pixelchimp.ne...-board/g5-4.jpg
http://pixelchimp.ne...-board/g5-5.jpg

From memory the other chip has the heat sink glued on under the copper colored sink, and doesn't want to release it.
http://pixelchimp.ne...-board/g5-1.jpg
http://pixelchimp.ne...-board/g5-2.jpg
I didn't get under the copper sink.

They're all quite large chips, but have a lot of pins, so heating with a gun could work. I only have a jewellers torch (800?C -1000?C) so I don't fancy trying it at the moment :)

I saw this fun post that looks like it is doing something similar, in a flamboyant way.

I'm really unsure about the best way to do it, I think you would want to reball all the large chips, since doing one, then rebuilding the mac would be a chore. I haven't worked out if it's possible to set up the G5 with the other side of the case open.

[Droid]

Better images of G5 logic board here Including side shots of the U3 BGA chip (I think).

These were taken by another person with a failed G5.

[JeffDy]

Hi! Droid

The U3 (or U4 on late Quad G5) chip sits under the heatsink on this picture http://pixelchimp.ne...-board/g5-1.jpg

I asked a company found on the web and they will charge 120$ for a reflow only (like XBox repairs or the like) and 200$ for a R/R/R (that means remove/reball/reflow) if you ship them the motherboard, plus shipping costs.
It's also possible to add an underfill to improve reliability...
Check this for further informations: http://www-01.ibm.co...%20for%20G5.pdf

Important notes: Before putting back the heatsink, cut 3mm off the rubber pad under the heatsink to allow it
to sit properly on the chip. You have to check and adjust that. If you do not the spring load is not applied evenly
and there is a gap between the heatsink and the chip (poor heat transmission).

Also there is a small blower hidden behind the HD fan that sucks air under the board from the front of the machine to the hard drive bay. Mine was dirty as hell, half clogged by dust. It's tricky to remove it from the front and putting apart the whole case to remove it is boring as possible, but this blower is essential to cool down the backside of the board and keep the U3 to overheat. Since few people know it exists and so never clean it, there are lot of chances it's not working well anymore.

Finally since all those G5 troubles are linked to temperature variations, you should never let the machine cool down.
Keep it working everytime...The least temperature variations means a longer lifetime...

Hope it helps ;+)

Jeff

[JeffDy]

Here under some pictures related to my post:

U3:
http://img4.imagesha...e=u3chipwu3.jpg

Backside blower:
http://img4.imagesha...yblower1rh0.jpg
http://img252.images...yblower2eh9.jpg

Heatsink rubber pad (cut)
http://img252.images...ubberpadwt9.jpg

See you ;+)

Jeff

[Droid]

Hi Jeff,

That blower is icky :) I'll try to get at mine tomorrow.

Thanks for all the info I'll finish reading the IBM notes tomorrow too, I have just stripped down to the logic board to have another look at the U3 chip. I seem to have a different heat sink arrangement, I don't have another pipe coming from the U3 sink. Yours is almost 'S' shaped, mine is just 'L' shaped. I think it means I don't have any rubber to cut? Mine is an August 2005 Dual 2.3Ghz.

I haven't removed the U3 sink yet since it seems very well stuck, I'm wondering if a little heat would soften the thermal glue? It looks like the copper sink has an aluminum backing that mounts onto the chip via more thermal paste. The pins look pretty small, I was thought about reballing by hand, but that looks impossible judging by the number of pins & size of 'em.

I wonder if there is any reballing templates for the chip, I don't think these have enough holes. I'm in the UK, so I think I'll check out if the local prices for reballing and under filling. A few companies say they do it, but don't list prices. I'm not sure if this is the issue with my G5, I never managed to get a boot up via the hairdryer method.

I wonder if trying to reflow on the board would work (hope that is the right term). A bit like this without the close proximity of alcohol, a lithium battery, & towel! I was thinking more along the lines of a piece of heavy metal, heated in an oven placed on the chip for a 30 seconds.

Reading the IBM info it makes me think it the U3 was born to fail (it gets hot, has a ton of connections, and requires strong sink contact). Interestingly they specify leaded solder, is there anyway to check if Apple switched to unleaded around the time of these G5's? The RoHS info could be a smoking gun in all of this.

PS the IBM site complains about authorization if I browse lower directories, weird.

Thanks, the info is very helpful.

[glaston]

As has been mentioned several times, it might help to get something that illustrates the problem up somewhere on a social networking site.
I'm on 1 CPU here and my
confidence in rendering and encoding complex and lengthy files on this
machine is low.
It could cease to operate at any time(I was surprised by how much of an effect that has on me).

-----
I was thinking of a simple motion graphics composition.


REAL simple and to the point.

Done like a spoof of their marketing style.


Made on apple machines, with apple software.


Apples product presentation style is pretty consistent and simple.


It's usually always over-exposed studio lit or reflective environments with alot of shadowing.

And a narrator.

I hate the narrator.

To do anything like this I'll need good images of the logic board to map onto a 3D object.

The ones above will probably work if it's OK to use them?

About those images:

Why is there an AMD chip under the heatsink?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone has any content they want to contribute, that'd be great.

Any suggestions or anything?

[glaston]

After reading the IBM techdoc, having another company do the r/r/r process might not be such a good idea.
The IBM doc explains that there was an enhanced process used for this that a 3rd party might not be aware of or capable of.

This could result in rapid degredation of the reworked connections if the underfill isn't performed along with the use of the right solder medium.

The G5 chip simply can't maintain integrity with standard soldering techniques because the 970 module and the actual G5 card have different thermal stress tolerances.

The document goes so far as to say that without the use of the underfill and the spring load, the life of the machine is a fraction of what it is WITH the underfill and spring load.

The problem is the thermal "cycling".

The G5 chip 'steps down' when you aren't running CPU intensive apps, such as design apps.

So everytime you switch between say firefox and final cut, the chip cycles between high power and reduced power.

Which causes thermal cycling.

This asks the question of what effect the CPU mode option of "highest-reduced" has on your machines tendency to break down from this problem.

If you were to set it to either reduced or highest power and leave it there, then theoretically the CPU won't step up or down and won't be subjected to thermal cycling.

G5's ship with this option set to "automatic" which seems to facilitate the breakdown.

That document makes it glaringly obvious that the stability and integrity of the G5 is a house of cards.

Apple should've went from the G4 directly to intel.

And that information was known prior to the release of the G5.

Apple(in typical apple form) wanted to recoupe all the money they put into the G5's development so they went with it.

Despite the fact that there was every indication that it's prone to failure.

Think about it.

They have a chip that's known to generate more heat than any other.

They realize that standard soldering methods aren't adequate for this.

So instead of actually solving the problem or scrapping it and cutting their losses, they come up with a "duck-tape" solution by adding this "underfill" and applying compression to the BGA so it doesn't seperate from the board.


-----
Another thing is that at least in theory, Apple doesn't have to replace all the logic boards to address the issue.

They could have them reflowed or removed/reballed/reflowed.

Evidently that's what MS is doing with the 360.

Which is even more upsetting to know that other options exist beside replacement of parts/machine and apple still won't do a damn thing.

Apple is obviously banking on the notion that most people who's G5's break down will end up buying a new machine.

And not because it will cost so much to do it, but because they're greedy and want people to buy new machines.

[Droid]

glaston said:

After reading the IBM techdoc, having another company do the r/r/r process might not be such a good idea.
The IBM doc explains that there was an enhanced process used for this that a 3rd party might not be aware of or capable of.
This could result in rapid degredation of the reworked connections if the underfill isn't performed along with the use of the right solder medium.

Good point, I'm looking into the costs of dong the reball & reflow in the UK. I'll try to find out if they will do underfill & lead solder. Is leaded solder even allowed anymore? The technote seems to be about 2 years prior to my G5 assembly.
It seems that the actual testing of failed boards would make repairing the most expensive option. It is more practical for Apple to train people to a reasonable technical level to do the replacements and just switch out major parts. I do wonder if Apple is keeping the dead boards & refurbishing them, or stripping them for components, or whether the repair centers just dispose of them.

Quote

This asks the question of what effect the CPU mode option of "highest-reduced" has on your machines tendency to break down from this problem.
If you were to set it to either reduced or highest power and leave it there, then theoretically the CPU won't step up or down and won't be subjected to thermal cycling.

G5's ship with this option set to "automatic" which seems to facilitate the breakdown.

I always wondered what was behind the logic of the Processor Performance option, I assumed it was to help it meet energy ratings. My G5 was on highest most of the time, and it was put to sleep each evening. Using sleep also cycles the chips temps too - argh.

Quote

Another thing is that at least in theory, Apple doesn't have to replace all the logic boards to address the issue.
They could have them reflowed or removed/reballed/reflowed.
Evidently that's what MS is doing with the 360.
Which is even more upsetting to know that other options exist beside replacement of parts/machine and apple still won't do a damn thing.

Weren't the 360's failing within warranty and failing en masse early in their life? I know macs have a reputation for running for years, but I'm not sure we should expect much beyond the extended 3 year warranty. It seems a bit unfair to expect Apple to fix a mac that is 4.5 years old & never had Applecare (like one case I have seen).

[glaston]

> Droid wrote: Weren't the 360's failing within warranty and failing en masse early in their life? I know macs have a reputation for running for years, but I'm not sure we should expect much beyond the extended 3 year warranty. It seems a bit unfair to expect Apple to fix a mac that is 4.5 years old & never had Applecare (like one case I have seen).
Yeah, I agree too.
After 4.5 years, with no applecare to start with, that's a different story.
But after 3.2-3.5 years, when you had applecare and it just expired a couple months prior, knowing that it's a widespread problem that stems from an issue that was known and addressed during development, apple really should help you out.
Droid wrote: I always wondered what was behind the logic of the Processor
Performance option, I assumed it was to help it meet energy ratings. My
G5 was on highest most of the time, and it was put to sleep each
evening. Using sleep also cycles the chips temps too - argh.
I thought the same thing.
It is after all located in the power pref-pane.

[glaston]

I don't know about anyone else, but I think apple had every reason to expect this.

I'm not saying that it's a big conspiracy.

Seems like IBM was pushing the limits with the G5, probably knowing that apple would be going elsewhere in the future.

At 2GHz the G5 ran hotter than a chip should run.

But they pushed it even more and had to implement that liquid cooling system.

I mean at the start even they knew that the chip had thermal issues.

The only things keeping the G5 from breaking down within months of it's purchase were a polymer known as the "underfill" and a spring assembly that kept pressure on the ball grid array.

Around here we call such unelegant solutions "ghetto rigs".

If that doesn't fall under apples responsibility, what does!?

[ojsosa]

Well, my personal situation now is that things seem to be working again. After getting nowhere w/ the Apple Customer Care and Genius'... I ran the Apple Extended HW Test Tool many many many times. At least 50 times. Each test run takes ~2hrs b/c I have 8GB of RAM. Anyways, long-story-short, I eventually go it to report a failure with the video RAM. So, I bought a new (cheaper) video card that I received yesterday. Put it in and everything is working as of right now. I'll check back in and let you know in about 2 weeks if that's still the case.

Now, with regards to "underfilling" and IC, that's not intended to help w/ heat dissipation or ball contacts. That's done to help larger IC with rigidity so that it can withstand flexes in the board they sit on. As for a "spring mechanism", I have no idea.

IC's can run hot for a very long time if they are monitored and maintained w/in their limits. Heating up of an IC to the point that solder melts (especially lead-free solder) would be very difficult to do w/out permanent damage to the IC.

I don't think this is the problem... at least not for me.

A bad solder joint, is certainly possible.

Regards,
OJSosa