[dabigkahuna]

This isn't an attack thread - I have just come across some things about a Mac (I'm used to a PC but would like to switch, maybe in January) and figure others may be able to add to a list. And others may be able to provide solutions! This will help me with my decision.

Something that came up yesterday when someone who has a macbook was trying to show me a picture they had gotten in an email. Since it wasn't my computer and I don't use a Mac, this may not be clear, but here is a problem we had:

First, in one of her efforts, I saw small versions of the picture (album art?) from an email - I THINK she was using Apple's mail program. Anyway, the picture was small but neither of us could figure out how to make it normal size! I tried double clicking it like I would with a PC, but no success.

After that I think she switched to gmail. Never saw any album are, but did see attached picture files. I don't recall all the steps or order we did things in, but I know at various points I'd click the attachment, select download, chose "open". But never saw a picture!

What gives? I'm sure this has a solution or Apple would never sell any computers!

When to the Apple store many times and some things I've learned puzzle me. Apparently to actually quit a program, you have to open the menu and choose "close". Clicking the "X" box isn't sufficient. To me this is an extra step. What is the benefit of having "X" not actually close the program? The "-" box for minimizing doesn't sound much different so what am I missing?

The "" box surprised me since I expected it to fill the screen, but from what the Apple person told me - that it simply sets it to the optimum width and length for the screen seems fine. Well, it would except for one thing. I created a word processor file and increased the % size to 150%. When I clicked the "" box, it didn't optimize the width for that situation so, to see everything, I'd have to drag the corner over - again, an extra step since you have to drag.

I'm guessing that is just the way it is, but I think they are missing something useful on that.

On the web browsel, they said increasing the text size (which I do a lot), does not widen the appearance, but just makes it longer. I think that is fine - as long as I can read it - and it would also mean that I can make the text bigger without having to scroll left and right to see everything. But is this just the way Safari works? I use Firefox and I would probably use that with the mac too, at least at first but don't know if it would handle this differently.

On one of the programs I looked at (Word, I think), opening the file menu didn't show recently used documents - you had to take another extra step and first choose that category. I have a PC program like that and find it annoying. I don't mind if you could show, say, 8 on the file menu and then could select older ones via another submenu.

Also in word, I had a heck of a time with copy/paste. For one thing, highlighting the section wasn't as obvious as on my PC. Can you change the color it uses for the highlighted section?

To actually copy it, I had to either use a key combination or open up a menu - more extra steps. I asked if a copy and a past button could be added to the menu bar and they said "no". Is that right? I often do things that don't require my PC kepboard and would like to keep it that way! Fortunately, the Excel program did have these buttons.

That's it so far.

[iimacboy90]

I'm not sure about the Apple Mail and picture attachments (I still don't get it sometimes...lol!), but I can explain most of everything else.

At first, having to quit a program everytime you're done with it may seem annoying, but I don't know how many times I've gotten trigger happy on the window closing and would have other wise had to reopen the program. Not a big deal maybe, but it's annoying to have to wait that five or six seconds it to reload. Also, this kind of makes you savvy with keyboard shortcuts. It's quicker just to hit command q (the swirly key) to quit a program than "App Name" > Quit.

Mac OS X is different from Windows in that unless it's a movie or other media item, application windows almost never go full screen. Some say this is a horrible use of screen real estate, but it actually gives you the feeling of more space. Whenever I sit down at a Windows box, I always feel like I have no idea what's going on, because I can only see one window at a time. Also, I love OS X's column view, it's so much easier when you have to constantly navigate through a plethora of files and folders.

I actually never use the maximize button. On the Mac, when you set a window size in an app, any new windows in that application made after that, typically follow that window size (the Finder and Safari I know for fact do this). The minimize button works the same as your used to on Windows, as the does the close button. And regarding the word processor, it wasn't Microsoft Word was it? More on that below

For making text larger in websites through Safari, I never really paid attention, because I don't have a need to do that :).

As for Microsoft Word, don't even get me started. And I don't say this because I'm a cliche Microsoft hater. The Microsoft Office does not behave the way standard Mac applications do, in everything from font and color pickers to keyboard shortcuts. About copy and paste though, that's not Word's fault. I haven't ever used a program with copy/paste functionality built into the menu bar, not even on Windows. But since you're using the mouse anyways, you can always right click and copy/paste.

Hope this makes more sense of things!

[DMurray431]

It would be helpful to know what version of the OS you are talking about. In Leopard mail, you have quite a few ways to view pictures and attachments. In the "attachment" line (in the address lines) there are two additional boxes........ one for "save" and the other for "quick look". Click save, and the attachments are saved to the designated file location. The other "quick look" is a slide show of the attachments... when you click on the opposing arrows it goes to full screen and all attachments are shown as a slide show......full screen. Leopard mail also allows you to make your e-mails more interesting with it's stationary and easy loading photo's & attachment. Mac's are very intuitive...... As far as quitting a program... It is very easy to pull down and click on the "quit XXX). Many times you want to keep the program in the background so you can go back to it..... the yellow "dot" in the upper left hand corner shrinks the program to the dock for quick "re-opening" of the program...... or the red dot will close the window but can be quickly re-opened by clicking that program on the dock. Learning these procedures make using a mack more "user friendly".
Message was edited by: DMurray431

[mdawson]

Welcome to the boards. As you stated, you are used to using Windows and you have to get yourself out of that mindset. OS X and Windows are different operating systems and therefore go about certain things differently. As long as you attempt to do things the Windows way instead of using intuition, you are going to find yourself fighting the OS. In terms of the issues that you listed all save one have nothing to do with the Mac.

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dabigkahuna wrote:

>

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I saw small versions of the picture (album art?) from an email - I THINK she was using Apple's mail program. Anyway, the picture was small but neither of us could figure out how to make it normal size!

I do not use Mail.app so I am unsure of how it handles attachments, although such things are fairly universal. If Mail permits you to see thumbnails?album art specifically refers to images associated with (recorded) albums?of attached images, then double clicking it should download the images to the computer. Actual Mail users can better explain the procedure, but as I stated before, that type of functionality is pretty much universal.

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dabigkahuna wrote:

>

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After that I think she switched to gmail. Never saw any album are, but did see attached picture files. I don't recall all the steps or order we did things in, but I know at various points I'd click the attachment, select download, chose "open". But never saw a picture!

You do not provide enough information here to permit anyone to diagnose this problem. What browser are you using? What steps did you follow to view/download the image? G-Mail always give the option to view or download attachments. Standard image files always appear as thumbnails at the end of the body of the message. If you did not see a thumbnail, then chances are the image files are empty.

So it would seem, that the real problem is perhaps in what was transmitted, but again you need to provide more details of the situation. You e-mail problem is at worst a software issue, but it may be an issue with what was transmitted. In either case, the problem has nothing to do with OS X. :)

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dabigkahuna wrote:

>
When to the Apple store many times and some things I've learned puzzle me. Apparently to actually quit a program, you have to open the menu and choose "close". Clicking the "X" box isn't sufficient. To me this is an extra step. What is the benefit of having "X" not actually close the program? The "-" box for minimizing doesn't sound much different so what am I missing?

The difference in window management is OS-specific because Apple and Microsoft employ completely different window management philosophies. Windows incorporates two types of windows: application windows and document windows. Document windows are always encapsulated in application windows but most Windows? applications maximize the document windows by default. The large set of buttons on the right side of the title bar control the application window, but if you look you will often see a more subtle similar group below that, which controls the document windows within the application. If you click on the smaller ??? you will close the foreground document and not the application, but most people click on the application close button because their attention is drawn to it by size and coloring. In addition to this management style, every application has its own menubar associated with its application window and in some cases each document window has its own menubar.

The Mac OS have never employed redundant windowing so all windows are document windows. Therefore closing the windows has no impact on the application and only one menubar exists permanently planted along the top edge of the screen. As any user interface design guru will tell you, the technique that Apple employs follows proper spatial orientation; that is, things remaining where you expect them to be so in the case of the menubar, it is always in the same location allowing you to navigate via muscle memory with a single sweeping motion.

On a Mac you cannot close an application by inadvertent clicking the close button. That process makes perfect sense as the user is more likely to want to close documents and not necessarily the application. As iimacboy90 stated, it takes much less time to open a document in an open application than to relaunch and in occupations where time is money, Windows window management style can reduce productivity when inadvertent clicks result in the application being closed instead of just a document. Both Windows and OS X allow you to keep applications open with no open documents, but Microsoft?s UI design makes it far more likely for you to close the application and not just documents.

The minimize, ?-?, is most definitely different from the close button and it operates exactly the same way the minimize button works in Windows by minimizing the document into an icon on the Dock. The maximize, ?+?, button unfortunately is inconsistent and again this is more a software issue than an OS issue as the developers seem to be the one?s determining how this button operates. In some applications it maximizes the document window to the screen, in others it sizes the screen to the optimal size for viewing the current document and in others it is anyone?s guess.

But, as iimacboy90 mentioned, there is rarely a need to resize Windows on a Mac because unlike in Windows the Mac does not encapsulate document windows in application windows or waste screen real estate on redundant or repetitive control elements such as menubars and toolbars. As a longtime dual-platform user, I almost always find myself having to maximize windows when using a Wintel PC inn order to work productively. On a Mac, unless the display I am using is small, such as on a laptop, I rarely have a need to maximize windows to full size in order to work. In fact, the only time I do so is when I am doing graphics or CAD work where I am more likely to do a substantial amount of zooming.

dabigkahuna wrote:
>
On one of the programs I looked at (Word, I think), opening the file menu didn't show recently used documents - you had to take another extra step and first choose that category.

Um, that is exactly how recent items are displayed in the File menu on a Mac also; they always appear at the bottom of the menu and you can set the number of recent files to display in the application?s preferences if the application supports the feature. If accessing recent files this way is not present, then just as you stated about the one program in Windows that irks you, it is a software issue and not an OS issue. If you are not seeing recently used items in the File menu with a Micosoft Office application then it is a safe bet that the recently used file list has been deactivated in the preferences.

dabigkahuna wrote:
>
Also in word, I had a heck of a time with copy/paste. For one thing, highlighting the section wasn't as obvious as on my PC. Can you change the color it uses for the highlighted section?

You can change the highlight color in the Appearance control panel under System Preferences, but as you mentioned you were using a friend?s MacBook, the real problem is probably the screen. Laptop screens are more prone to angular color shift and contrast loss than desktop LCD panels. I have noticed when using laptops that the highlighting is hard to discern when the screen is not angled for my height. I do not own a laptop, but when I use one it is more often than not owned by someone significantly shorter than me, so the screen is adjusted to a steep angle away toward my chest. Once I adjust it to a shallower angle so that I am looking directly at the screen, contrast issues vanish.

dabigkahuna wrote:
>
To actually copy it, I had to either use a key combination or open up a menu - more extra steps. I asked if a copy and a past button could be added to the menu bar and they said "no".

I cannot see how is using a key code or going to the Edit menu for copying and pasting any different from what you do in Windows? Copy/pasting procedures are universal across both platforms and most applications. The reason you were told that a copy and paste button could not be added to the menubar is because no application has copy and paste buttons on the menu bar, because they are not menus.

Here again, you need to provide more information, because you have not indicated which version of Word you are working with and there are dramatic differences between the user interfaces for the older versions of Office for both Windows and the Mac and Office 2007/2008 for Windows and Mac, respectively. If you are using Word 2004, then you do not see the copy and paste buttons, because the standard toolbar is not activated. Word 2008 has a single toolbar and does not have copy and paste buttons by default. I do not have Office 2008, but I am familiar with other applications on the Mac that employ single document-attached toolbars; the toolbars are almost always customizable and allow the user to add or delete buttons based on their needs.

The problem you are facing here is a matter of settings or choices made by the developer; in this case Microsoft. It sounds as if the person that owns the Mac you are using has made several preference changes that are subsequently throwing you.

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You are most definitely finding fault in the Mac for issues that have nothing to do with the Mac itself, but you are not the first potential Switcher to do so. You are not even the first strictly Windows users to do so, as I often find that people cannot distinguish between problems that stem from the hardware, operating system or a specific application. While there are many differences between OS X and Windows, such as the window management philosophies, Windows is ultimately a copy of the Mac OS in many respects and therefore a great many things work similarly.

Most of the problems you have brought to the table are application-specific or the result of modified application settings. Beyond that, the basic feature sets found in all applications (e.g., copying, pasting, opening/closing/saving files, etc.) work universally across all applications regardless of the operating system.

I would suggest that you keep exploring and asking questions. As long as your inquiries are clear, I am sure that you will find many here willing to help you. But do remember that you are asking for help remotely?we are not sitting with you?so you cannot make posts that come down to ?it?s broken, fix it,? and get adequate answers; anyone that does respond has to make several assumptions, as I did here. Little can be done to assist you if the information you provide is vague. Always provide information about the computer you are using, the version of the OS, the version of the software and explicit details about what you have done or are trying to do.

[dabigkahuna]

What is the difference between minimizing a program and clicking the X icon? Without having a mac to experiment on, I don't see the difference or benefit of having both those options but not having a button to quit the program.

As for using keyboard shortcuts, a lot of times I'm doing things which don't require the keyboard, like if I'm just reading stuff on the net or reading files in Word, etc. Just don't need the keyboard on my lap. Everything is with the mouse.

Yeah, you can take the extra step of opening the file menu and moving the cursor down to close the program, but like I said, it's an extra step - plus sometimes when I do have to do such things, it is easier to accidently click on the wrong item!

The lack of full screen doesn't bother me much, now that I can see how it does work - EXCEPT in the example I gave where enlarging the text screws up the practicality!

I can see what you mean about being confused by windows about what is going on. But I handle that by how I set up the "Start Bar". I put it on the side, which lets me show a LOT more stuff at once than when it is at the bottom. At the top of that bar, it will show programs (or files within programs like each open word file). Nearer the bottom, I have the programs I'll run, divided into groups. With small icons and no names, I can put a LOT of those in too. So, anytime I move my cursor to the edge of the screen, the bar pops out and I can quickly select a new program or switch programs or files.

The lack of copy/paste was in Word. I was really surprised when they told me it not only didn't exist on the bar, but couldn't be added to it! You have to use keystrokes or menus.

I can't recall what I did last time at the store, but on the laptop I saw the other day, I tried clicking the right side of the button below the pad and nothing happened when I was looking at photos. So how do you "right-click"? On my PC, anything you right-click on gives some type of menu.

[dabigkahuna]

Don't know the OS version. I'll try to check next time I see the person - how do I tell?

> the yellow "dot" in the upper left hand
corner shrinks the program to the dock for quick "re-opening" of the
program...... or the red dot will close the window but can be quickly
re-opened by clicking that program on the dock. <

So, except for where you click to reopen the program, they do the same thing?

> Learning these
procedures make using a mack more "user friendly". <

Well, uh, not sure I'd say that. I mean, learning anything makes it easier simply because you're used to it, but that doesn't make it friendly. It could also be said that learning to do things a new way is harder, but once used to it, it is easier. That's why I'm trying to find out how to handle these issues now so I can figure out what just needs more experience and what is actually going to be a negative.

[dabigkahuna]

I am aware that part of the problem is partly getting used to a new system - hence the need to get answers to things that I've noticed so far. I expect some things will be better, some will be a wash - but some will likely be negative.

On the gmail thing with pictures, I know she used Safari. I described the steps as best I could remember. I only had a little time watching her try to do it. Based on comments I get here, next time I'll try to watch for things brought up.

I understand the fact that there are different philosophies in the OS - it's one of the reasons I want to switch! I even understand muscle memory (being both a musician and a bicycle rider)! But I need to factor in as much as I can and I just don't understand what meaningful difference there is between minimizing or using the X option.

As for the inadvertent clicking of the close button, I don't think I've ever done that. Partly because I almost never minimize and especially don't click the button next to the X which changes to and from full screen (I use full screen all the time, but then, I only have a small laptop screen so, with a big screen on an iMac, that could change!). Also, my document files in Word or Excel have extensive icons separating the document boxes from the application boxes so it's hard to confuse them.

But I understand you points - just not why two buttons seem to do pretty much the same thing on the mac. Am I missing something?

I can see your point about the advantage of not wasting space on multiple menu bars. That's something that, on my little computer screen, doesn't factor in because everything really needs to be maximized anyway so I only see one menubar at a time. Probably be similar using a macbook screen for me. But on the large iMac, I usually wouldn't have things using the full screen very often so his will make a notable difference.

On the file menu (recently used files), you said they show on the bottom of that menu like a PC. Since this was something I looked at while at the Apple Store, it may be they simply hadn't had any files opened before to show up (or, as you say, maybe that was deactivated). I'll have to make it a point to check that out. But it did have a menu option which said "recently selected files" (or something to that effect). I didn't select that to see what it showed so I'll add that to my list of things to check further or.

Glad the highlight color for copy can be changed. It really was hard to see - being somewhat color blind, maybe the colors used were particularly bad for me. In this particular test, I was using a laptop, but at the store - and I move around trying to see if the angle was the problem. It was always hard to see. My only computers for 9 years or more have been laptops so I'm familiar with that issue.

The benefit of copy/paste in Word like I have in windows is that, assuming I'm not actually trying to type something, I can just have the mouse to highlight a section, click the copy icon on the screen, click where I want to paste it, and click the paste button. This means I don't have to reach for the keyboard when I don't need it for some other reason. It is also just a tad easier than clicking a menu and then moving down to the copy or paste options. Sometimes I'll use the right-click menu (that's another thing I need to check out with a Mac and mac programs).

My version of Word for a PC DOES have buttons for copy/paste. I don't know if they were there originally, but you can add buttons from a rather extensive set of options so either they already were there or I was able to add them years ago. My version is 2000. The one on the mac was, I assume, the most recent since I was trying it at the Apple store.

> Word 2008 has a single toolbar and does not have copy and
paste buttons by default. <

As long as I can add them, that wouldn't bother me, but they said there was no way to add them.

The only issue I was dealing with on the friends computer was the hassle about seeing the pictures. All the rest wee things I was trying to figure out at the Apple store. Some answers, such as the copy/paste option, either concerned me or they were misinformed themselves. The store is often very crowded so I don't always get to ask questions in the time I have, but I keep stopping by periodically to follow-up and hopefully have some time for questions to be answered.

I probably should also mention that I do understand that things I listed here are not always (or even mostly) issues of the OS itself, but since I was going to cover a number of things, hope others will bring up their issues too, and add more as I get more time to try things out, I thought this section may be a reasonable place to discuss the various items. My "logic" for the topic area was that it is ultimately about changing to a Mac OS vs Windows.

I am aware that answers are limited to the info I can give - and, unfortunately, since it is new to me, I can't always provide the details since I can't just turn around and check the stuff on a mac. Normally I am lucky to play with a Mac once a week for a very short time when I go by the Apple store. But I'll follow up on things that are suggested here and maybe, if I still need info on the subject, can come back with the details requested.

The basic info you requested I can answer for most of my issues (all but the picture problem because that was a friends computer and all I know is that it is a MacBook). Everything else were things I was checking on at the Apple store, thus certainly the latest OS and latest velsion of Office (I guess it is possible Office may not be most recent, but the OS must be).

Thanks.

[Tom_Diola]

Wow you can sure write a lot.

Truthfully without having the OS in front of you it's not going to be easy to evaluate a Mac.

Just like I don't know much about Vista and I wouldn't attempt to post questions about Vista.

You're better off buying a Macintosh and then asking questions.

[sandbag1]

In .Mail or Safari and easy way to view an image, just click and drag it onto the Preview icon in the dock. Then you can use Preview to do with it what ever you want. If the sender is just sending thumbnails, that's all you'll get. Another way is to drag the image onto the Desktop to view later.

[DMurray431]

To sum things up, the difference between the Microsoft way of doing things and the Apple way are similar, and depends on what you are used to. One who is used to using one system will be confused about the other. Kind of like the commercials for the two companies. The mac commercials are humorous, to the point and understandable. The current Microsoft ads well, they are confusing at best, just what are they trying to say or sell?

[Tom_Diola]

The M$ commercials - oh that's easy:
They had some spare cash (Bill Gates is retired and couldn't stand being out of the spotlight )
so they had Seinfeld create some Commercials. Poor Seinfeld has to try to create some humor
from an old and tired Bill Gates.

[dabigkahuna]

While I don't expect to figure out everything with brief visits to the Apple store or getting answers here, I do firmly believe that it would be foolish to spend the kind of money I would be spending on a Mac without learing more about its pluses, minuses, and quirks.

After all, I am thinking about getting an iMac (24" preferrably). That ain't chump change!

[dabigkahuna]

Ah, never heard of the preview pane. Sounds like a good solution. I'll be sure to check that out next chance I get. Thanks.

[dabigkahuna]

Yes, I am aware that some things are just a matter of getting used to a different system. I came from an Apple IIgs to the PC world. Lots of adjustments.

And something challenging at first can turn out to be better once used to it. My whole job is based on teaching people that very fact!