[mdawson]

Pointing out that you are erroneously using a term that you admitted you had to look up then continued to misuse is not being condescending. The reason I brought up command line interfaces is because in your post starting this sub-thread you wrote,

Quote

you simply have to select the letter that is bolded in the menu bar i.e. "F" for file plus a key (haven't used one for awhile so I forget what the equivalent of a command key is) and the menu comes down, then you select the next (bolded) letter from the menu you wish to use and select "alt" or whatever.

which is similar to the description I gave for keyboard menu navigation,

Quote

to invoke Select All you would have to press and release the menu key to activate the menu bar, then press and release the E key to select and open the Edit menu and then finally press and release the A key to invoke Select All.

Actually, your original statement confuses the operability of a keyboard shortcut with keyboard menu navigation as you brought up the ?equivalent of a command key? that would be used to perform a keyboard shortcut and not require the other steps you mention that describe keyboard navigation of the menus. If you cannot distinguish between the command line interface that is completely text based, keyboard-based menu navigation that is the method of choosing menu commands in an application running in a text-based OS and, keyboard shortcuts, then you cannot make definitive statements like, ?watching my friends use Linux suggests to me that they have GUI and CLI included in the programs (emphasis added) ,? which is not only non sequitur but incorrect.

Programs are either WYSIWYG or text-based and in either case do not have a command line interface. The exception is AutoCAD, which is ancient, and started out on dedicated workstations where the commands were entered on a small text display and the images were rendered on a high-resolution vector display. Unless Autodesk has finally removed it, AutoCAD is the only program I have ever encountered since the mid-1980s that has a command line interface in the software. Operating systems can have a primarily graphical front end with a CLI-based backend; modern applications do not function that way. And again, pointing that out that you seem to not know what you are talking about, especially after you admit it, does not make my statements condescending.

For anyone else reading this sub-thread you are confusing matters, making it appear as if you are defending archaic operability and suggesting that Apple implement an anti-GUI feature that most Windows users do not realize exists in that OS. As I stated twice before, keyboard shortcuts are a part of a GUI-based system, and many programs will allow you to add your own if that is what you wish to do. You then tried to state that the Mac?s keyboard shortcuts are not user-friendly and excessively complex, which is patently false. If I had access to a Windows PC right now with a decent spread of applications, I could easily find default keyboard shortcuts that are just as unfriendly or complex.

In either case, it is the developers that decide to add those shortcuts not Apple and Microsoft except where it exists in their software. And finally, graphical and text-based interfaces are not intermixed in applications. I have seen many posts from you in the past and you are not stupid, but you have made some rather egregious errors in terms of what you where apparently attempting to get across here. Not understanding terminology is one thing, but continuing to argue a point when you clearly are confusing matters, and have been informed as such, does not help your case.

[dabigkahuna]

Okay, new trip to the Apple store follow-up.

But first, I'd like to make a personal point - I completely disagree with the statements some have made that I need to have a computer in front of me to get my questions answered. I never subscribed to that, but I submit that my trip today conclusively proves it isn't necessary.

I simply went through the posts, copied parts of comments that mattered to me for follow-up, pasted into a word processor, printed it out, and took it with me to try things out.

Here are the things I learned that I or others brought up here that I can recall off the top of my head:

"Spaces" is definitely very nice - without comments here, I wouldn't have known to even look for it. And in the process of going over it with one of the workers, I found out more than just the basics. Also learned that the dock is the same on all spaces (I wish each could only show what you want for a given space).

Checked out column view - also seems useful to me - as well as other views recommended here.

Successfully was able to enlarge the image from cover-flow. Don't know why I failed when using a friend's macbook though. I stopped by the friend's place on the way home (she runs a pizza place!) and tried with hers again. Worked fine getting into preview mode this time. Go figure.

Also found out it wasn't Leopard mail she used before - it was Yahoo mail and gmail. Anyway, got the pictures to successfully show up this time. I have not checke EVERY way of seeing pictures described here, but I only need one or two for now.

Experimented with the X to stop working on things. Feels a little weird still, but I got to the point where it was starting to make sense!

Tried the + button on different things and, sure enough, it's usage is not consistent! But I do wish, when it is supposed to give an optimum window, it would work that way even when you have something (like a Word file) zoomed to a 120% or something. I know, that's the program - but if I buy a Mac, I have to factor in how programs affect me too, not just the OS itself.

Looked to see if I could add "copy" and "paste" to the Word menu bar. A worker was helping me at this point. We found "Copy Text" and added it, but it didn't do what either of us expected. Couldn't figure it out at all so I have to research that.

Something that came up when visiting my friend may be a factor. She told me she had no "right click" and I remembered sometimes playing on computers at the Apple store and not getting it either. Since she has a low-level Mac (and she said the salesperson told her she needed to go to a higher level macbook to get right click capability), I suspect that maybe some of my testing was on a similar macbook at the store. But today I was mostly on an iMac and, sure enough, I was able to right click.

I'm not sure all this is accurate, but while playing with my friends macbook, we looked for the option to let you tap the track pad to click. Along the way, I saw the option about what two finger tapping would do. It wasn't clear, but I activated it and did some testing. Wow, tapping with two-fingers gave me the menu I would expect from a right-click! Very good to know.

Still have a problem with the "recent files list" in Word. A worker was helping on this. As I said, there is a "recent" file option, but it takes an extra step to get there. Someone here said the recent files would be at the bottom of the file menu. Didn't see it. The worker couldn't seem to figure out any options that may be changeable to make it happen either. Not a huge issue, but when you consider how often I open old files, it sure would be nice to avoid that extra step. I know, a software issue, not OS X. Still someone said it should show the same as on a PC so I still want to figure this one out.

Clicking the Safari URL bar does not work like on a PC, but a worker said to just triple click. No problem at all!

Found the help desk for keyboard shortcuts. Didn't know about it until reading about it here.

Found I can set a time for the computer to shutdown or start. Don't know about actually launching a program and having activate a audio stream file automatically yet, but even if I can only do the other things, that's a plus.

Found out quicktime does have a speed control which avoids chipmonk "voices" even when playing back a lot faster. Excellent. But I was a bit concerned about how much trouble the worker had getting a file to play in quicktime! He did various things - mostly dragging the file to quicktime. Don't know what finally made it work. I can't believe this is serious - more likely he was just doing something wrong. I have found some of the workers don't know as much as I would normally expect, but no big deal.

Some of these things I would not have known to look for or ask about without comments from people here. And some of those things led to other info from the workers (such as the "spaces" option to activate when you move the cursor to the corner of the screen.

A lot of the things I was a bit concerned about have been settled well enough to remove a lot of my doubts (though I may always come up with new issues I haven't thought about yet).

Oh, and I want one of those new Nanos! Or an iTouch or iPhone!

[JSamJr]

"Spaces" is definitely very nice - without comments here, I wouldn't have known to even look for it. And in the process of going over it with one of the workers, I found out more than just the basics. Also learned that the dock is the same on all spaces (I wish each could only show what you want for a given space).

"Found I can set a time for the computer to shutdown or start. Don't know about actually launching a program and having activate a audio stream file automatically yet, but even if I can only do the other things, that's a plus."

You can set applications to launch automatically in each Space. For instance one Space might be used for iTunes and opening that Space will launch the iTunes app

"Still have a problem with the "recent files list" in Word."...."Someone here said the recent files would be at the bottom of the file menu."

Yes, there should be a list of recently saved/opened docs at the bottom of the File Menu. Try saving opening and saving some docs in Word (just create a blank page and save as Doc 1, Doc 2 etc) and see if they show up in the File Menu.

"Clicking the Safari URL bar does not work like on a PC, but a worker said to just triple click. No problem at all!"

One click inserts the cursor, two selects a word and three the whole URL You could also type Command-L to select the entire URL

"Looked to see if I could add "copy" and "paste" to the Word menu bar. A worker was helping me at this point. We found "Copy Text" and added it, but it didn't do what either of us expected. Couldn't figure it out at all so I have to research that.

There seems to be some confusion in terminology here. The Menu Bar is the top most bar in a program that has titles like File, Edit, View, Insert, Format ect. Generally this can't be changed. Word (and Excel) does let you customize the Tool Bars. You can add Copy (looks like two sheets of paper) and Paste (looks like a clipboard - at least in my version of Word) and they do the same thing as the keyboard shortcuts, Command-C and Command-X. Command key is the one with the clover leaf thing. Don't know why they would not work as expected.

Quick Look another neat Leopard feature for you to try out. In a Finder Window (lists of files etc) click on the Quick Look button in the menu bar (looks like an eyeball), select a file, and then press the space bar.
You will be able to see a small representation of what is in the file. You are able to get a full screen preview too. Even view multiple pages, levels of folders and inside PDFs without opening the associated program!

Aren't you ready to buy a Mac now

[Alan]

Some Apple stores give courses for newbies as a freebie for buying. My girlfriend took a course and she was showing me stuff i'd never heard of.

Re Spaces, I never used it till recently but now it is going all the time. I love it.

Re: tapping to click, As you found out that is in the keyboard preferencs

Apple in top left corner, System Preferences, Trackpad (I don't have one on mine so I can't take you further)

That option is available on PeeCees also but my recollection is that it will drive you crazy, because every time you touch the trackpad with another finger etc it will; move the mouse, click it, etc and you'll start typing all over your document each time it happens. Helps if you lower the computer or raise your hand but I am inherently lazy. :D Personally I would get a mouse (preferably a wirelesss one like my girlfriend has) rather than depend on the trackpad, but that's just me. I would look at other mice though as I do not like Apple mice. :(

Thanks for the command + idea. I had forgotten all about that. Very handy.

For copy and paste, hit the command button (left and right of spacebar) and at the same time

c for copy or

v for paste or

x for cut to clipboard or

a to select all or

d to delete or

n for a new document or blank email or

w to close the current window, or

Q to quit the active programme

P to print or

S to save

F to find something say in an open program or on the Mac. Doesn't work in all programs

I to italicize selected script

B to bold selected script

Commit these to memory. They are very useful. They also work (most of them) on PeeCees.

Recent files is on my Word File menu, but bear in mind that you have to have created a recent document. In the Apple store they may not have one created on a demo machine.

If you wanted recent items or programs that you have used on the computer as a whole, then click on the Apple in the top left corner and then the Recent Items (7th item down)

Also checkout the Dashboard. I have so many items on mine that I have to be selective. Here are my favourites

Widget update

http://retiredblog.g.../widget-update/

This widget checks the web (when you click on it) for updates on your installed widgets. Fantastic!

Application update

http://retiredblog.g...ads/app-update/

This one checks the web for updates on installed applications. Fantastic

Language translators, dictionaries, Wikipedia, calculator, currency converters, upcoming birthdays, email advisors, applecare, movie checkers with trailors, looking after your computer vital signs, reminders to do maintenance, parcel tracking on most major mail or courier systems, biorhythyms to figure out why I am on the rag :^0, Daily guitar jam to do a bit of playin along, Weather checkers, Macworld news. As you can see the list goes on. I ran out of space There are oodles of Widgets on the web at Apple.com or www.Versiontracker.com

If you get a laptop, might I suggest that you get in the habit of placing possible a couple of strips of wood under it on both sides. This allows the air to circulate under it and it will run cooler (when you are using it on a table obviously). I suspect cooler means less problems and a longer lasting battery and something I learned from the Fire Chief when I was a volunteer fireman, is that laptops can get so hot that they spontaneously burst out into flames. Sounds too wild to be true but it happens. Normally associated with putting it on a soft surface like deep carpet or a blanket where air circulation is cut off

Best thing about Apples is this website for asking questions. If it wasn't for this website I probably wouldn't have an Apple.

[mdawson]

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dabigkahuna wrote:

>

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Experimented with the X to stop working on things. Feels a little weird still, but I got to the point where it was starting to make sense!

You still seem to be confusing things here. The close button, ???, is a document button and clicking it closes the attached document . The Mac OS does not and has never had buttons to close applications, therefore, clicking on the ? does not stop anything; it closes the attached document and the application remains open and running. In order to ?stop? an application, you must explicitly quit by pressing command + Q, going to the application menu and selecting Quit or, right-click on the Dock icon and select Quit from the pop-up menu.

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dabigkahuna wrote:

>

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Tried the + button on different things and, sure enough, it's usage is not consistent! But I do wish, when it is supposed to give an optimum window, it would work that way even when you have something (like a Word file) zoomed to a 120% or something.

Unfortunately, Microsoft has opted to use the maximize button inconsistently even across Office applications. In Word it toggles between your default window size and to my best guess, lord knows what. In Excel it toggles between the current window size and maximized. In Preview , an Apple application, the maximize button works as advertised. If you zoom in or out on a document then click the button the window will resize to the document page being viewed. On the other hand, iTunes, which is also an Apple application, using the button toggles between the window view and mini player.

The use of that button is an area where Apple has seemed to lose sight of proper and consistent UI design.

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dabigkahuna wrote:

>
Looked to see if I could add "copy" and "paste" to the Word menu bar.

As JSamJr stated, and I mentioned a while back in this thread, you are confusing terminology here also. The menu bar contains menus, not buttons, and you cannot customize the menu bar. Toolbars typically can be modified depending on the application and if Word 2008 does not permit you to add copy and paste buttons to the toolbar it is unfortunate, but none-too-surprising given the many missteps in Office 2008 overall.

dabigkahuna wrote:
>
Something that came up when visiting my friend may be a factor. She told me she had no "right click" and I remembered sometimes playing on computers at the Apple store and not getting it either. Since she has a low-level Mac (and she said the salesperson told her she needed to go to a higher level macbook to get right click capability), I suspect that maybe some of my testing was on a similar macbook at the store. But today I was mostly on an iMac and, sure enough, I was able to right click.

All Macs have had the ability to right-click for over a decade. For some odd reason, Apple laptops still have a single button, whereas Apple mice included with desktops have the same left-/right-click capability as a two-button mouse. Mac mice only had one button for far too long and the standing workaround for invoking context menus in a one button scenario, such as on a laptop, is to control-click; that is, hold the control button while clicking on an item to get to the context menu.

As you found out, there is also a trackpad trick to bring up contextual menus, but that feature is relatively new and cannot be performed on Mac laptops much older than a year or so. If I recall correctly, that feature was added shortly after the Intel transition in 2006.

dabigkahuna wrote:
>
Still have a problem with the "recent files list" in Word. A worker was helping on this. As I said, there is a "recent" file option, but it takes an extra step to get there. Someone here said the recent files would be at the bottom of the file menu. Didn't see it.

As others have mentioned, if you are playing with a Mac in an Apple Store, there are no recent documents to see in the File menu. The preference is set by default in every application that supports it and I doubt that Office 2008 applications would be any different in that regard. By ?a ?recent? file option (that) takes an extra step? do you mean the Recent Items command in the Apple menu? If so, that is system-wide and not application-specific. The items in the Apple menu have nothing to do with Word or any other application as that is a fixed system menu.

dabigkahuna wrote:
>
The worker couldn't seem to figure out any options that may be changeable to make it happen either.

The sales people at the Apple store are not Mac experts and there is only so much that they can assist you with. The types of questions you are asking are too specific and therefore would require an Apple Store Genius?the trained technical customer support staff?and you typically need to make appointments for that level of assistance. As others have already mentioned, classes are also offered for recent Mac buyers to discuss these types of issues.

dabigkahuna wrote:
>
Clicking the Safari URL bar does not work like on a PC, but a worker said to just triple click. No problem at all!

Again, this is a software-specific behavior and not dependent upon the operating system. Safari behaves in that manner in reference to the address block, Firefox behaves in the manner you are used to seeing (I guess) in Internet Explorer.

dabigkahuna wrote:
>
Found out quicktime does have a speed control which avoids chipmonk "voices" even when playing back a lot faster. Excellent. But I was a bit concerned about how much trouble the worker had getting a file to play in quicktime! He did various things - mostly dragging the file to quicktime. Don't know what finally made it work.

As I stated previously, this is not the kind of thing that the regular sales staff are trained to handle. A number of things are at play here. Was the file one that QuickTime supports? If so, it is one that QuickTime can edit? Did the store have QuickTime Pro, which you have to purchase, or the standard pre-installed (free) version?

[dabigkahuna]

Setting applications for each space will be nice - at least for most spaces.

I'll try saving a document next time at the store to check out the "recent" list in Word. But why would they list some where I think they should be listed on the file menu but ALSO have an option that says "recent files". Unless that is for recent files that don't fit on the bottom of the file menu (that WOULD be a handy addition).

Looks like I'll need to look for the toolbar changes in word again for copy and paste additions - but this time do it myself. Maybe the worker took a step I missed. That particular worker often did things very quickly so that may be the case. But since you have it, it must exist which is all I need to know at the moment.

Not sure if I was already using quick look or not. I did go to the finder and found some files which included pictures. Was using the coverflow view. Hit the spacebar to make it bigger and could then hit the two arrows to make it bigger in preview. Didn't try using the eye icon, but I assume other than that we are talking about the same thing.

It is definitely VERY handy. I can see many situations I'll use that!

> Aren't you ready to buy a Mac now <

Yeah, pretty much. Was expecting to anyway, but each time I either solve an "irratation" or find some new capability, it makes it even more likely. Still expect to wait for around January though. I can live with what I have for awhile and I'll get to see what they announce at MacWorld.

What I would really like to see, but don't think it will be ready or even announced by then, is the new nahalem chips in an iMac. My understanding is that the mobile versions won't be available until later in the year and I think iMacs use mobile chips too (read that someplace).

I could buy a macbook first (I am thinking of eventually having both) though I wish the macbook had better graphics).

[dabigkahuna]

I think the store has something like free courses for a year after purchase. Apparently at least one is for anyone - I sat in for part of one when I had time. Hard to hear all that was said since lots of customers were around making noise since it was held in the main part of the store. But I learned a little from it.

I normally use my laptop as a desktop so I have a wireless keyboard/mouse, but when on trips I prefer to be able to tap the trackpad to do things. Done it that way for years. When using the friends laptop, it drove me nuts - I kept tapping the keypad out of habit and nothing would happen!

If I get a macbook, I'd get an external setup too - and since I find a mouse with 8 buttons VERY useful, it would have to be something other than Apple.

Didn't know there were recent items on the Apple menu. That sounds useful too!

Haven't looked into the widgets, though I know they exist and I'll want some.

My present laptop is propped up for airflow.

[dabigkahuna]

I understand the close button, though I probably didn't state it clearly (I meant ending work on a document and if that is the only document for that program, normally I would have closed the program on my PC) - it just feels weird since I am so used to closing programs too.

> By “a ‘recent’ file option (that) takes an extra step” do you
mean the Recent Items command in the Apple menu? <

Hmmm, I'll have to check back on that. I'm just about positive I was looking at the "File" heading.

> Safari behaves in that manner in reference to the
address block, Firefox behaves in the manner you are used to seeing (I
guess) in Internet Explorer. <

Ah, I use Firefox. Don't know the pros and cons of Safari vs Firefox to know which I'll use on a Mac.

Well, just a few more things to check since I've covered the "irritations" for the most part that I knew about satisfactorily. Another trip to the store is definitely going to happen soon.

[Alan]

I personally use Firefox and Safari because some sites seem to have issues with each, such as Aeroplan used to have problems with Safari. Don't know if that's still true but I just use Firefox anyways.

[mdawson]

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dabigkahuna wrote:

>

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I meant ending work on a document and if that is the only document for that program, normally I would have closed the program on my PC.

Well that is not necessarily the case in Windows, just far more likely because of how the Windows user interface is designed. Because Windows has application windows with encapsulated document windows and the latter are typically maximized by default, most people have no realization of the fact that they can simply close all of the documents without quitting the application. Unless the user is completely shutting down their computer each day or lacks adequate system memory, they should ideally leave their commonly used applications open even if there are no open documents. From a productivity standpoint, the few seconds difference between simply opening a document into an open application vs. having to re-launch the application most, if not every, time they open a new document quickly adds up.

Also, because the minimize/maximize/close buttons for the application window are far more prominent than those for the document window, Windows users are more inclined to hit the big red-boxed [color="#ff0000"]?[/color] on the application window rather than the very inconspicuous plain ? below it on the just as discreet maximized document window. So when you hit the (application) close button in Windows one of two things will typically happen:
bq. 1. The Windows app will close just what seems to be foreground document because it is treating each document as a separate application session. Windows does support multiple app sessions?i.e., an application will (seemingly) reopen for a new document instead of having the document open in the already active app session. 2. It will ask if you want to close all documents or cycle through each unsaved document asking you to save or discard before closing the application.
The fact that Windows users are more inclined to close the application than a single document in Windows is a testament to Windows poor UI design. It is not that having application and document windows are bad, but that Windows does not make it obvious to the user that there are two different types of windows in play.

I know that Windows has document windows encapsulated in the application windows and yet I still hit the application close button when I want to close only the current document. I have long since lost count of how many times I have had to cancel the closing of an application or re-launch because of this UI design flaw. On a Mac, I may inadvertently close the wrong document if I am not paying attention, but I have never accidentally closed an application. I can reopen a document from the recent files listed in the File menu much faster than I can re-launch an application.

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dabigkahuna wrote (in reference to OS X?s recent items):

>

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I'll have to check back on that. I'm just about positive I was looking at the "File" heading.

In the Apple menu there is a Recent Items submenu, but as I stated previously, it is system-wide. By default, it shows the 10 most recent items in each of three categories: applications, documents (across all applications) and server connections. You can change the number of recent items for each category in the Appearance control panel from none through 50 items.

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dabigkahuna wrote:

>
>Ah, I use Firefox. Don't know the pros and cons of Safari vs Firefox to know which I'll use on a Mac.

I use both. Firefox is my primary browser, but some things just work better in Safari, particularly as I activated the Debug menu to get it to be seen as IE to for accessing Websites that are not W3C compliant (read: far too many sites developed by Windows users that are only tested in IE).

[dabigkahuna]

With windows, I'm very familiar with closing an app vs closing a document. Things like Word and Excel, for example, I rarely close the app - I almost always have certain documents on each I use regularly so I'm only closing a document I just needed for a short time and won't need it again that day.

But I may open Access once in awhile. Typically, once I've done whatever it is I needed to do, I don't need it again that day (or even for a week or more). I just close the whole application. Same for some other applications. Just depends.

[dabigkahuna]

Two quick points after making a special trip to the Apple store since I had part of the day off.

First, I was apple to add "copy" and "paste" to the toolbar so that issues is officially settled.

But there is still an issue with "recent files". I think two people here said recent files appeared ot the bottom of the file menu, just as they do on the PC version. But all I've ever seen is a "recent files" item near the top of the file menu which must be opened to see those files.

So, I created a new document and saved it. Then, just to be sure, I created another one and save it. I closed both those files then selected the file menu. They still didn't appear at the bottom! One of the workers there I asked said he uses Word sometimes and has never those files at the bottom either.

So did I misunderstand what some people said or what is going on?

Heard there are rumors new macbooks may be coming out in October - might be motivated to get one if they look particularly improved. My long term plan is to get both a macbook and iMac. If I get the macbook first and later the iMac, it would maximize what I get on the more powerful system. And if for some reason I decide I don't want to stay with mac, I won't have invested as much to begin with. At least that is my theory.

[mdawson]

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dabigkahuna wrote:

>

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But there is still an issue with "recent files". I think two people here said recent files appeared ot the bottom of the file menu, just as they do on the PC version. But all I've ever seen is a "recent files" item near the top of the file menu which must be opened to see those files.

>

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So did I misunderstand what some people said or what is going on?

No, you did not misunderstand what we stated. If you are seeing a Recent Items command in Word?s File menu then it means that Microsoft has changed the File menu for Word 2008 if not Office 2008 overall. I have Office 2004 and recent documents most definitely appear at the bottom of the File menu just as they did in Office 98, Office 2001 and Office v.X for the Mac.

[dabigkahuna]

Oh, okay, I thought someone said they had it in 2008 version.

Well, I can live with it. All the other stuff I learned is to the good anyway. This isn't enough to hold me back at all.