[Peter Cohen]

WilfredLaurier said:

Peter, I don't suppose you could ask Intel what their official position on OpenCL is?

Intel is one of the many companies participating as part of the OpenCL working group, in fact.

[Mike_Atamian1]

I don't have a Mac notebook but I do have a 2x dual core MacIntel desktop. I have given up on buying games made specifically for Mac. Outside of the fact that you have to wait in some cases 2+years for a PC game to be ported, the PC versions just seem to run faster and more smoothly. Sure, there are exceptions (Spore comes to mind, which was released simultaneously for Mac and PC) but they are just that- exceptions. The last Mac game i bought was Neverwinter Nights 2. While I was impressed with it, I was disappointed that the expansion pack was unavailable. So I ended up buying the NWN2 Gold Edition for PC (includes the expansion pack), and installed it on my BootCamp partition. NWN 2 runs far better on the PC then on the Mac- and I think Aspyr did a fabulous port for Mac, by the way.

Is it a pain to boot up in Windows when you want to play games? Yes. But it's not that bad, considering that the option is to wait 2 years for games that your friends are playing today. Not to mention that most games NEVER get ported (for example, Oblivion, which I am currently playing).



Off my soapbox now...

[Peter Cohen]

No question that a Boot Camp-equipped Mac running Windows can provide a very robust gaming experience, but I still contend that it's more of a PITA than the average Mac user is willing to put up with.

Hell, I have an octocore Mac Pro and I'm not willing to put up with it -- I zapped my Boot Camp partition about a month ago because I was so fed up with the hassle.

[Mike_Atamian1]

I do agree it is a PITA. Ultimately, what this average Mac user would like is to never have to restart the computer when running Bootcamp...and never use emulation. That's probably a long time away. In the meantime though, I'm biting the bullet, as I don't see Mac-native games ever getting to the level they are at for PCs.

[PXTPXT]

Since there have been few games for the Mac or ages, how come one of the game makers hasn't come in and swept up the market for Mac games? Seems like an easy win, and great games are often more about the gameplay than the graphics. Seems like someone isn't paying attention.

[jackdawsson]

PXTPXT said:

Since there have been few games for the Mac or ages, how come one of the game makers hasn't come in and swept up the market for Mac games?

Largely because making games is an expensive process & no developer will bother wasting time, money or resources making original games for a relatively limited market. Whilst PC games are considered to be selling well if they top well over 1 million sales, for Mac it's about 50,000+. It's also easier to program games in MS's DirectX environment (more tools, documentation, libraries, etc.) than in OpenGL - largely because of Apple's lack of support.

Boot Camp, whilst a solution for many Mac gamers & one which I'll have no choice but to adopt once I've played through the best OS X games, sadly does NOTHING & worse for Mac games developers. - Though Macs need better graphic card options, & whilst this will help Mac gaming, of greater importance is that Apple need to support Mac game developers far more than they've done so far.

[Peter Cohen]

jackdawsson said:

Largely because making games is an expensive process & no developer will bother wasting time, money or resources making original games for a relatively limited market. Whilst PC games are considered to be selling well if they top well over 1 million sales, for Mac it's about 50,000+.

That would be a remarkably successful Mac game. The threshold for most Mac developers to break even is well, well below that. Because that's about what the market will bear. Despite that there's been a big uptick in the number of Macs on the market, there hasn't been a proportional increase in Mac game sales.

And that explains why more big companies don't come in and try to sweep the market. Frankly, the potential revenue doesn't merit their effort -- they have much bigger fish to fry.

By comparison, sales of 50,000+ aren't at all uncommon with successful iPhone games, from what I'm being told. And that's a burgeoning market that has a lot of growth ahead of it. Which is one reason we're seeing a lot more movement in iPhone games than we're seeing in Mac games.

But that's not to say it's all bleak. While Aspyr and MacSoft have slowed way down with their Mac game releases, TransGaming, Feral and Virtual Programming have stepped up to the plate with more aggressive publishing schedules. EA is keeping its toe in the water with Spore -- hopefully it'll be successful enough to merit their continued involvement.

[fletc3her]

I think the problem is that many Mac gaming companies are not targeting the massive installed base of Macintoshes, but are instead targeting only the latest and greatest hardware. My family works like many do and hands down older Macintoshes to our extended family. This results in many old G3 iMacs still being in operation, some G4 towers, etc. I've actually purchased games for my brother in law that were within the tech specs of his hardware, but then they were essentially unplayable. This changes a nice exciting present into a bitter disappointment. After a couple experiences like this, admittedly years ago, I stop buying Mac games altogether.

For what it's worth, I've experienced exactly the same thing with PC games. We bought a nice new, albeit cheap, PC and thought we'd get a few of the older titles like Halo that we'd missed. The graphics card on the PC was so lame that it couldn't even do a credible job on these several year old games. It's not like we were even trying to play the latest and greatest.

In contrast, the consoles and handhelds play every game you buy for them the same as every other unit does. If it says Wii on the box it will play on a Wii. I think the iPhone can be a great gaming platform similar to the DS. It's a well controlled environment with simple tech specs.

[Peter Cohen]

The game developers and publishers would certainly target PowerPC and lower-end systems if they could, but the complexity and technical requirements of PC games has skyrocketed as graphics, physics, AI and other aspects of gameplay has gotten more complex.

It certainly doesn't help that Apple has done its part to push the adoption of new hardware and software by singularly focusing on improvements primarily to current versions of the OS (Leopard). It's a shrewd marketing move, although it's a lousy engineering principle, and it leaves users of older hardware in the dust.

Mac game developers are not working in a vacuum -- they're simply part of a continuum that demands higher-spec computers in order to provide a good user experience.

[jackdawsson]

Peter Cohen said:

That would be a remarkably successful Mac game. The threshold for most Mac developers to break even is well, well below that. Because that's about what the market will bear. Despite that there's been a big uptick in the number of Macs on the market, there hasn't been a proportional increase in Mac game sales.

By comparison, sales of 50,000+ aren't at all uncommon with successful iPhone games, from what I'm being told. And that's a burgeoning market that has a lot of growth ahead of it. Which is one reason we're seeing a lot more movement in iPhone games than we're seeing in Mac games.

I admit I'm distinctly underwhelmed by that, particularly in light of steadily increasing Mac market share over recent years... but not at all surprised, not least because of the cumulative impact of Boot Camp. Still, it'd be interesting to know sales figures for some of the more popular Mac ports like "AoE III" or "The Sims" games.
I guess as long as we have a continuing lack of commitment from Apple here, keeping Mac gaming at about its current level, or gaining modest improvements, is about as much as we dare hope for. - Looking on the bright side, I suppose the Mac games I'm buying now will probably become collector's items one day & bring me a nice return. :)
I'm sure you're right about the expected growth of gaming on the iPhone & it's very likely that Apple will focus any efforts solely in this sphere on so-called "casual gaming"... something that I personally certainly won't be buying into.

[Steve_S]

Peter Cohen said:

Despite that there's been a big uptick in the number of Macs on the market, there hasn't been a proportional increase in Mac game sales.

Is there any real explanation for that? Is it a case of the "chicken or the egg" scenario? That is, I know that I would purchase more titles if more good titles were available. I purchase a fraction of games per year now compared to previous years. While it might be fair to suggest I have less spare time than I once did. However, I remember when companies like Westlake were doing ports and Aspyr was much more active in the Mac market and compare that to what I see now and realize, what's changed has less to do with me than it does with what's going on with Mac ports. I just picked up a copy of COD4 today. That's an excellent example of what I'd like to see Aspyr doing more of. But, they're not.... so, I'm spending less.

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And that explains why more big companies don't come in and try to sweep the market. Frankly, the potential revenue doesn't merit their effort -- they have much bigger fish to fry.

I don't doubt there are "bigger fish to fry", so to speak. However, considering the larger Mac market now as compared to years past, I can help but believe these publishers are leaving money on the table by ignoring the Mac market.

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By comparison, sales of 50,000+ aren't at all uncommon with successful iPhone games, from what I'm being told. And that's a burgeoning market that has a lot of growth ahead of it. Which is one reason we're seeing a lot more movement in iPhone games than we're seeing in Mac games.

Yeah, I've contributed to iPhone game sales as well. Of course, if we're speaking of numbers, there is a big difference between paying nearly $60 for COD4 on the Mac and paying $1.99 for many iPhone games. I've purchased more iPhone apps than Mac apps recently, partly for the novelty of being new, but mostly because the purchases were trivial.

Also, I think there are other opportunities for revenue that are not explored by companies like Aspyr, etc. There are classic titles from past years that don't run (or at least not properly) on current OS X / Intel based Macs. I understand there is development and testing associated with this type of work. Likewise, I'd pay a modest fee ($10 - $15) for having these applications updated for Universal binaries (or even Intel only) and tested to run well on Leopard. They could distribute these updates electronically and still require the original discs, etc. Do you know if anyone has ever explored this possibility?

[Peter Cohen]

Steve_S said:

Is there any real explanation for that?

I don't think Apple or anyone else has done any system analysis to learn why; most of what I've heard and gathered myself is conjecture based primarily on anecdote. Having said that, I believe that many people are buying Macs that are ill-suited to AAA-list games, like MacBooks. I also think that a lot of users have "defected" to gaming platforms, as they require a smaller investment in up-front costs than getting a games-suitable Mac. That's similar to what's happened in the PC market -- the PC market has shrunk considerably. Another reason is games like World of Warcraft, which eat up people's discretionary income both up-front and on a monthly basis, making them less likely to spend money on other games. Something I'm sure Blizzard/Activision doesn't mind.

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They could distribute these updates electronically and still require the original discs, etc. Do you know if anyone has ever explored this possibility?

Aspyr has certainly talked about it with GameAgent, their newly-minted online distribution resource. But there are problems with source code acquisition and licensing for back-titles; in some cases, the Mac licensing for those games that they once published may very well have reverted back to the original IP owner; in other cases, the Mac publishing license may not cover e-distribution; in some cases, the game is in limbo because the original publisher and or developer has gone out of business.

It gets very complicated very quickly, and I don't pretend to armchair-quarterback the business management of Aspyr or other companies.

What I can say is this: EA had six Mac game releases last year. They've had one this year (Spore), with presumably one more before year end (an expansion pack for Spore due in mid-November).

Given that's the case, I think we can safely infer that EA didn't see the return it expected on its Mac games in 2007 and isn't anxious to throw good money after bad. That doesn't bode well for a burgeoning Mac game market -- I think we're going to be stuck with the status quo for a while longer yet.

[Steve_S]

Peter Cohen said:

Having said that, I believe that many people are buying Macs that are ill-suited to AAA-list games, like MacBooks. I also think that a lot of users have "defected" to gaming platforms, as they require a smaller investment in up-front costs than getting a games-suitable Mac. That's similar to what's happened in the PC market -- the PC market has shrunk considerably.

Yeah, that sounds plausible. I'm not sure the Macbook (or iBook before it) was ever intended to be a gaming platform. While the move to Intel chips certainly hasn't helped, I'm not sure how much better things will be if/when Apple moves away from Intel graphics (hopefully, we'll know tomorrow if the rumors are true). However, as you mention, the PC gaming market is suffering from the increased popularity in platforms like xbox, PS3 and Wii. I never hear kids these days talk about gaming on the PC, even though many "hard core" gamers do still prefer that platform. Some games, like flight sims, etc. are better on the PC, but as we know, these are niche markets.

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Aspyr has certainly talked about it with GameAgent, their newly-minted online distribution resource. But there are problems with source code acquisition and licensing for back-titles;

Well, it's nice to know the thought has at least crossed their mind. I'm frustrated when I have to pack up or throw away classics because they no longer run on my current hardware. While I'm sure the market for that isn't huge, I'd think the there is a market there. As you say, they are dealing with older licenses and contracts which may prohibit this from happening. I was considering this as a potential possibility when I made the suggestion.

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What I can say is this: EA had six Mac game releases last year. They've had one this year (Spore), with presumably one more before year end (an expansion pack for Spore due in mid-November).

I only purchased one of six titles and don't currently plan to purchase Spore - mostly because of the DRM, etc. So, I guess I can't complain about EA not jumping in.

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That doesn't bode well for a burgeoning Mac game market -- I think we're going to be stuck with the status quo for a while longer yet.

Yeah, our only hope is for more companies to look at the business model of a company like Blizzard. They develop their titles with cross platform capability in mind rather than relying on hacks like Cider after the original development is done. They don't rush their products to market, rather they release them "when their done" and truly treat each of their titles like a masterpiece. Blizzard in turn happens to be very successful and well respected within the gaming industry. It almost makes you wonder why other companies aren't looking at Blizzard's success and realizing where their model is lacking.

Also, there definitely is a market for casual games on the Mac. I'd love to see something like Pangea Arcade 2 with remakes of other classic hits. Maybe iPhone development of casual games will get others to consider the Mac platform as well. Hey, if they're already in XCODE... why not just bang out a Mac version as well? Right?

Anyway, thanks for the reply, this is a worthy topic of discussion.

[Peter Cohen]

Steve_S said:

Yeah, our only hope is for more companies to look at the business model of a company like Blizzard. They develop their titles with cross platform capability in mind rather than relying on hacks like Cider after the original development is done.

I don't see Cider as a "hack" as much as a reasonable solution to get games working on the platform. And quite frankly, with Aspyr and MacSoft pulling back from the market as much as they have, TransGaming has become one of the most prolific developers of Mac games on the market, along with Feral and Virtual Programming, both of whom are doing the best work they've ever done with recent releases, IMO.

Blizzard is obviously the exception that disproves the rule, but they spent a lot of time and effort early on creating a workflow that was conducive to cross-platform development. It's not as easy for a big publisher that has its business fragmented into a number of different development studios -- as is the case with EA, Microsoft Games, and others -- to do the same thing.

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Also, there definitely is a market for casual games on the Mac. I'd love to see something like Pangea Arcade 2 with remakes of other classic hits. Maybe iPhone development of casual games will get others to consider the Mac platform as well. Hey, if they're already in XCODE... why not just bang out a Mac version as well? Right?

Yeah, I've made this point with the game developers who I speak with on a regular basis. All agree that with Xcode, it's not that much extra work to make a Mac version, though they point to a few critical differences that give them pause -- one major one is that there's no consistent distribution framework as there is for iPhone games (a la the App Store). Another is that there's no cost-effective way to market games (sometimes for iPhone game makers, getting top listing in the App Store is all they need). Another still is the different expectations of Mac users versus iPhone users, in terms of quality of product -- they may need to redo artwork, for example, for a larger display, do more levels or more advanced level design, and make other changes. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I agree with them that it's more work, and in some cases, a lot more work.

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Anyway, thanks for the reply, this is a worthy topic of discussion.

Agreed!