[MacKayaker]

xStep said:

Several people have complained that the timeline is so critical. Why?

Consider the target audience who are making little videos for the family, or even longer ones. Their care is to simply get the highlights in an sensible order and perhaps place some music over it. Why should grandma care about the timeline?

The timeline is simple - they get it - it requires no evaluation or thought to understand. Further - just about every video editing app I've ever used has used the same thing (consumer, or pro level - any one remember editing on their PPC system in the mid 90s?). It is logical and easily comprehended. Most of the technical details that matter about video people don't get - i.e. frame resolution, SD versus HD (all it's varients). They don't get editing formats versus output formats - they don't get the differences in video saved to a tape, hard drive, or optical disk. They don't get why you can't just play a DVD back and re-aquire the content for further editng. Etc. Etc. Apple does a fair job, in iMovie, keeping these critical elements hidden from the user - as well they should.



But a timeline is straight forward. Try envisionaing Final Cut Pro, Premiere, or After Effects without a timeline. Try editing audio without a timeline. It makes no sense to even attempt it - IMHO. And with a consumer app, all the more so the case. If Apple genuinely thought the timeline was a problem - why not loose it out of GarageBand also?

[Schneb]

MorrisTheCat said:

>From what I've been able to tell from articles on the 'net, iMovie '09 still does not support plug-ins the way the older iMovie did. Now, there may be a lot of nice transitions and such in the new iMovie, but there are some very cool plug-ins for the old iMovie that will never work in the new version, unless Apple adds support for plug-ins back in, and somehow I don't ever see that happening.

Exactly. And what has Apple conveyed to developers who have started businesses creating plugins for iMovie? "Sucker!"

Why should ANYONE want to invest their time and money developing for Apple anymore, if with one decision, completely cripple and kill you company that trusted you?

[bastion]

hmurchison said:

> You can't seriously think that iMovie 06 is anything special. Yes it was cool like 5 years ago people. The train has moved on and you're still stuck at the station.

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Come on iMovie 09 is like a Ferrari to iMovie 06's Edsel.

Requires high-test gas, too.

iMovie '06 flew on my 2x1.8GHz G5. The newer, completely different, products named iMovie aren't supported for me, even though they are on a technically inferior 1.9GHz G5 iMac. Despite not being supported, it does get installed. And it does run. Like maple sap. In January. In Ann Arbor. Wretched thing can't even import video from a FireWire camera without dropping frames. Once you've got the lossy data in iMovie, attempting to manipulate it will expose you to a sensation known as "idyllic languor."

It's just sloppy. The only excuse for a digital media program that runs on a 1.9GHz G5 but not a dual 1.8GHz is laziness. They published what was essentially, based on the release presentation, a one-trick pony that one of their engineers had written because he found iMovie HD to be too difficult to use for one specific task.

[kill953]

I'm with the group who thinks a lot of people here are talking an awful lot of crap when they are criticising the ease of use of iMovie '08. I would consider myself an expert at the older, time-line based version of iMovie and my opinion is that iMovie '08 absolutely blew it out of the water in terms of actually being able to make a film which is the whole point of the software. What would take me 1 to 2 hours to achieve in iMovie '06 and earlier takes a matter of mere minutes in iMovie '08. Why? Because it is much, much, much easier to use. It took me all of half an hour of using it, clicking all the doodads and messing about, to realise that. So while I can sympathise with those users who missed the features they were used to having such as chapters etc. from '06 that didn't make it into '08, I have zero sympathy for people who plainly didn't even bother trying to leave behind their pre-conceptions about how a video app should work and just use what was there. If they had, they would have realised it kicked the old way of doing things completely out of the ground.

[Wirkman]

Hmmm. I have only made one movie in iMovie 08, but it went just fine. Easier than the light edition of Final Cut, that's for sure.
I have earlier install discs of iMovie hanging around my office, but iMovie 08 seems great, and I may upgrade to 09.
My trouble? I've never been "spoiled' by 6?

[Steve_S]

hayesk said:

Get over yourself.

Well, someone has their panties in a bunch... ;-)

>Is it really so hard to believe that other people may have different opinions? iMovie 08 was a disappointment to those used to iMovie 6. People new to iMovie didn't really complain.

So, basically, your argument is that those who don't know better, don't complain. Thanks for pointing out that you're speaking out of emotion rather than logic.

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There's no point in continue to whine about 08 since it's not even current. Try 09, then get back to us.

It's fair to say that at this point nobody has any real experience with '09, so let's not pretend otherwise. While I have no doubt '09 is an improvement of sorts, that shouldn't be surprising as there was no where else to go but up. Still, I've not seen any fundamental change in the iMovie '09 interface that magically makes this interface work nearly as good as iMovie '06.

[Steve_S]

hmurchison said:

Limitations is an understatement. No Core Image/Video , no QTKit, no Core Animation and probably 50 other modern OS frameworks that I won't mention

Yes, I agree with all of that. As I said, the old iMovie had been pushed beyond its limits. In this respect, iMovie '08 was a big step in the right direction. I initially applauded this move (until I started using it).

>I think the people raving about iMovie 06 are the ones that got used to it. I fired up iMovie 06 just a few months ago and attempted to due some easy edits and dropzones and I just didn't feel like it was a modern app with modern performance.

Agreed. But, I think you'll have to agree there is a difference between the technology and the interface. The new interface is so bad, I'd take the old creaky technology over the new improvements. That's sad. Apple took one step forward with the technology, but then took two steps back with the interface.

>iMovie 08/09 certainly is a new beast. It eschews a timeline (which I think is better for newbies)

Why is this better? Show me a "newbie" that had a hard time with the original iMovie interface? Movies are linear in nature and the timeline is a natural element for a movie editor. Apple took a relatively complex process and made it simple for newbies with the original iMovie. iMovie was the standard for which all other entry level editors were compared. Now, it's more of an embarrassment. The consensus amongst some is that Apple dumbed down the iMovie interface so that anyone who wants to do any real editing will have to use FCE. I've used both iMovie and FCE for years (used Premiere before that). Now, it's just FCE.

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Will people used to iMovie 06 continue to scream? Of course ...just like the Office 2003 and earlier people continue to scream about Office 2007 (which I find much more appealing from a UI standpoint). Old habits die hard. I'm testing out iMovie 09 tomorrow and if I'm wrong about my assertions i'll make my feelings public. I've just got a sneaking feeling that i'm going to love iMovie 09 and the majority of Mac users wanting to do video will feel the same.

Since the interface has not fundamentally changed from '08, I can't imagine why YOU wouldn't like it. For the same reason, I can't imagine why others would like it. I'll eventually give '09 a spin when I pick up a copy of iLife. I too will keep an open mind, but iMovie '08 just doesn't work for me. Also, you really can't compare this to something like Office. I'm not crazy about the new Office look, but the new interface doesn't interfere with my work either. That's not a big deal. You're simply trying to peg everyone who doesn't like the new iMovie into the category of people who resist change. That's simply not the case. The uproar over iMovie is higher than anything I've seen from any other product coming from Apple and for good reason.

[webraider]

Steve_S said:

>Still, I've not seen any fundamental change in the iMovie '09 interface that magically makes this interface work nearly as good as iMovie '06.

Thank God it's NOT the iMovie '06 interface.. It's 10 times better. Now we can finally do some real editing and fast. It's also cleaner and so much easier to use and it's just as linear. You do not need a bunch of numbers to edit a home movie. it's visually oriented and there's nothing wrong with that. In reality you can make more precise adjustments with '09 than you ever could with '06 and I'm using '09 now. Incidently the UI of '08 is much better than '06 too. '06's are stuck with a 10 year old way of doing things. I know FCP users who wish Apple would adapt the '08 interface more. I have no doubt FCP will actually be heading there more. Get used to it.

[MacKayaker]

Steve_S said:

You're simply trying to peg everyone who doesn't like the new iMovie into the category of people who resist change. That's simply not the case. The uproar over iMovie is higher than anything I've seen from any other product coming from Apple and for good reason.

I fully agree with this. I'm a tech guy and have used a pile of video editing software and none of that gave me much of a clue as to what's really going on with iMovie 08/09. I'm not resistent to GOOD change, nor am I slow on adapting to app tweaks. I have the Adobe CS4 suite and am loving the improvements in the software, and they did muck with the interface (again!), but it's a minor deal. All the apps work as they did - only better. That was not my experience with iMovie 08. And I tried to poke and prod with it again this morning - it just feels like a highly simplified FCP, in terms of workflow, yet as crazy as FCP is, the interface is more intuitive to me. At this point I could more easily create a simple project in FCE or FCP than iMovie 08.



Rather than keep kicking a dead horse, I'll get into iLife 09 and hope that iMovie 09 makes more sense to me than iMovie 08. And maybe some of the features that were in iMovie HD 6, but not in 08, will have returned to 09. I, for one, would appreciate that.

[btc2]

webraider said:

In reality you can make more precise adjustments with '09 than you ever could with '06 and I'm using '09 now.

What planet are you living on? Are you telling me there's something more "precise" than the frame-by-frame adjustment you could make in '06 by using the arrow keys?

You, sir, are high as a kite.

[webraider]

btc2 said:

>

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What planet are you living on? Are you telling me there's something more "precise" than the frame-by-frame adjustment you could make in '06 by using the arrow keys?

You, sir, are high as a kite.

What I'm saying is that you do not need a clock time line to make precision edits.. You do not need arrow keys to make precision edits and yeah.. you can make precise edits without those things.. you can do frame by frame edits in '09. Are you telling me that the ONLY way you an make precise edits is by using frame by frame adjustments by using Arrow Keys???? Hmmm.....
Join the 2000's

But just in case your are stuck and CANNOT do precise edits without those things..Feel free to try the precision editor....Yeah.. You can go FRAME by FRAME.

But you could also go FRAME by FRAME in iMovie '08 and you can do the same in iMovie '09 too without the editor. Just position the bar in the movie where you want.. and press the arrow key.. it advances 1 frame at a time. um... gee..

The beauty of iMovie '08 and '09 is that you no longer have too.

[migeon]

It's clear that some people like the 08-09 UI and some like the 06 HD. I like the timeline. Perhaps FC and FCE will get rid of the timeline too. 09 now has features that HD doesn't. I should hope so! I even like a couple of them, e.g. crop in on video clips. That could have been part of the HD upgrade, as could all of the other new tidbits that came along. But instead, Apple dropped HD. I would gladly pick up 09, no matter how much I hate the UI, if it could simple do what 06 did. I spend about 60 to 70% of my time editing sound. Adjust volume syllable by syllable if necessary. Cut sentences apart and rearrange the words. When Schiller bragged of the nifty way 09 could splice sound from one clip on top of another, I almost barfed. That's improvement over HD.

Here are my questions:
Can 09 extract sound from a clip?
Can you cut and rearrange sound (I use separate narration from later commentary and put it into the movie and edit the hell out of it, either on top of the movie or on photos.) I cut and move single words.
If you can adjust volume, how finely? Second by second?
What's with iDVD? 08 seemed to dismiss making DVDs from movies, true? Does 09 make HD DVDs?

This one about STABILIZATION is a doozy;

"I'm also surprised at how people are thinking the image stabilization is so great. If people really cared, they would use tripods - as they should be anyway. Shoot it right and you don't have to fix it in post."

Next time my son and daughter go to Africa shooting game - even from moving cars, I'm supposed to tell them to throw it out because they didn't use a tripod. Wow!

The argument about looking at some clips vs. all clips is unnecessary. Some people want to see all. Many, like me, don't like it because they have far to many to go through them all. We would like to go through them once!

iMovie 08 are apparently great for putting together little movies - no big time editing (especially sound). I make one hour movies of family trips. I need a timeline. From what I see 08 and 09 simply doesn't have the versatility to work with fine editing. BTW I use almost no transitions (cross dissolve once in awhile). No plug-ins. I use photos for about 2/3 of the movie with narration supplied by son, daughter, wife, friend etc. I've got people beating down my door for 4 more movies.

[webraider]

migeon said:

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Here are my questions:
Can 09 extract sound from a clip?

You can detach the audio track from a video clip in your project, and then move it or edit it.
To detach audio from a video clip in your project:
Click a clip in your project to select it, and then choose Edit > Detach Audio.
The audio track appears as a purple icon below the video clip. You can move and edit the audio track just as you would any sound clip.When you detach the audio from a video clip, iMovie sets the clip?s volume to zero. If you delete or move the detached audio, you can still raise the clip?s volume to make the sound play with the clip.You can also add just the audio from an Event clip to your project, without having to add the video first and then detach the audio.

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Can you cut and rearrange sound (I use separate narration from later commentary and put it into the movie and edit the hell out of it, either on top of the movie or on photos.) I cut and move single words.

Yes

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If you can adjust volume, how finely? Second by second?

As far as I've experimented, You can adjust voulme for clips only...YOU can normalize the volume of a clip, however you can cut audio and move and move it around. That said, you can select which audio track is louder, a narration, or audio track. and as stated above you can remove audio completely from a track. (this is the only thing and I mean ONLY thing that I miss from iMovie '06. iMovie '09 has very good voice over editing features however, you can also send your movie project to GarageBand and totally edit your voice overs there which is actually one of the intended functions of Garageband. Garageband gives you complete fade in and fade out controls along with increasing and decreasing the volume in certain areas. When you are done, you can send it to iDVD.

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What's with iDVD? 08 seemed to dismiss making DVDs from movies, true? Does 09 make HD DVDs?

iMovie '09 completely embraces iDVD. You can custom set your chapter makers in iMovie '09 (you have to enable advance features to do this however) and you can also set comment markers as well. When you are ready, simply send your project to iDVD. iDVD '09 still has no support for authoring a BluRay DVD. This won't happen probably until Snow Leopard, and the advent of Apple shipping Macs with BluRay drives. However, your feature can be High Defintion. iMovie '09 shines over iMovie '06 and '08 with it's support of High Def footage. You can burn your HighDef movie to a Standard DVD fine with iDVD. It will still be a High Defintion output. You just can't burn a BluRay DVD with it so our space per High Def feature will be limited with a Dual Layer Standard DVD. Toast however CAN author a BluRay but on a Mac, you still won't be able to play it back.

> This one about STABILIZATION is a doozy;

Image stabilization is fine with iMovie '09

iMovie 08 are apparently great for putting together little movies - no big time editing (especially sound). I make one hour movies of family trips. I need a timeline. From what I see 08 and 09 simply doesn't have the versatility to work with fine editing. BTW I use almost no transitions (cross dissolve once in awhile). No plug-ins. I use photos for about 2/3 of the movie with narration supplied by son, daughter, wife, friend etc. I've got people beating down my door for 4 more movies.

Don't worry.. iMovie '09 has a precision editor now and you can make up to the frame cuts using arrow keys as well in both iMovie '08 and '09. iMovie '09 executes transitions much better than '06 and they are so much easier to adjust and add. You can do fine editing just fine in '09. Even without the precision editor, but I believe the precision editor in '09 is EXACTLY what you are talking about.

[MacKayaker]

webraider said:

However, your feature can be High Defintion. iMovie '09 shines over iMovie '06 and '08 with it's support of High Def footage. You can burn your HighDef movie to a Standard DVD fine with iDVD. It will still be a High Defintion output.

This isn't correct. The reason iMovieHD 06 was named that was because it supported HD footage and output. I have customers using 06 for just that. And certainly 08 had the ability as well, as has iDVD since iLife 06.