[burro]

BURRO WROTE{quote:title=:}{quote}
How many more iPhones would you sell if an external keyboard could be
used with an iPhone/iPod to take meeting notes, to get work done during
commutes without lugging a laptop, to chat, etc.

LUKETHEGOONER WROTE: I think you miss the point, the iPhone wants some of the
corporate market, but it's not going after the Crackberry's IMHO, not
all the time it's trying to be a portable games console as well, if you
catch my drift.

Luke -- I am pretty sure I am not missing the point. Apple's failure to allow keyboard entry is not about wanting to lose corporate customers. It is partly about keeping the iPhone streamlined and partly about keeping tight control over BlueTooth to limit unapproved 3rd party developments.

Apple let's people waste energy lots of ways. As long as Apple can make long battery-life claims about "normal use" they are OK. If I want to drop my battery life by keeping BT on, that's really up to me.

I think Apple is missing the point on this one. I suggest allowing BT keyboards because they already exist and because iPhone BT already exists. If Apple has a problem with opening up iPhone BT that much, Apple could (a) develop a proprietary BT keyboard, or (b) allow keyboard entry via the docking port. Under (b), Apple could develop its own keyboard, or open up to allow 3rd party developers to develop keyboards. Not sure if (b) would require modifying the existing dock port.

In either case, a relatively simple, focused enhancement -- which could be done in a way to meet Apple's needs for tight control over 3rd party possibilities -- could be done to greatly broaden iPhone/iPod appeal to include people who want to get things done, rather than people who want an item that is 98% toy.

[snapcridge]

98% toy...really?

I guess I'm the lone wolf out here because I didn't buy a smart phone until the iPhone was introduced. But ask the many doctors, small business owners, and professionals that have puchased one if they think it's a toy and they will probably think your one of those guys that thinks the internet is just a fad!

You may think that this is just a toy, but my guess is that at least a small portion of the 17 million+ that have bought an iPhone would beg to differ (me included).

[doglesby]

With 3.0, there is nothing stopping anyone from creating a keyboard that uses BT or the dock connector to work with the iPhone. For system-wide support (using a keyboard with Notes, Mail, Safari, etc.), Apple would have to build it into the iPhone firmware. But I expect to see keyboards that support at least on general purpose app shortly. Heck, there was a short-lived attempt to cooperatively support copy-paste, I bet app developers could be encouraged to support a keyboard standard. That likely wouldn't run into sandboxing problems (just a whole lot of duplicate code).

[burro]

{quote:title=snapcridge wrote:}{quote}
98% toy...really?
I guess I'm the lone wolf out here because I didn't buy a smart phone until the iPhone was introduced. But ask the many doctors, small business owners, and professionals that have puchased one if they think it's a toy and they will probably think your one of those guys that thinks the internet is just a fad!

You may think that this is just a toy, but my guess is that at least a small portion of the 17 million+ that have bought an iPhone would beg to differ (me included).

Hey snapcridge,

Yes -- I honestly think "98% toy" because I think that 98% of the time people use iPhone apps for fun, socializing, or tasks they could do better some other way.

I've basically been using the internet since the day it was online, and precursors before that. I've been a consultant for Apple users since before there were Macs.

But I evaluate the usefulness of technologies before I employ them. If someone just wants to balance their check-book, they don't need a computer... or an iPhone.

Yes -- you are probably missing something if the iPhone is your only "smart-phone" -- because you can get a great address-book calendar phone (even internet e-mail) in many of the "just-phone" phones (like th RAZR or the z750, etc.), and it is a hack of a lot better phone than the iPhone phone. If you add even a semi-decent PDA, you can do a whole lot of things you cannot do with an iPhone -- like use a fold-up or full-size keyboard to write your novel, edit spreadsheets, take meeting notes, etc. (in addition to taking photos, watching videos, etc.). YES -- even the lowly Palm has had medical programs for years that remain better than what is available for the iPhone -- databases, imagers, etc.

If you are interested in a tool for doing ANY kind of serious work, the simple fact that an iPhone cannot use an external keyboard is a deal-breaker.

Simply put, after using a keyboard for entry, you'll never want to go back to screen-based entry.

[burro]

{quote:title=doglesby wrote:}{quote}With 3.0, there is nothing stopping anyone from creating a keyboard that uses BT or the dock connector to work with the iPhone. For system-wide support (using a keyboard with Notes, Mail, Safari, etc.), Apple would have to build it into the iPhone firmware. But I expect to see keyboards that support at least on general purpose app shortly. Heck, there was a short-lived attempt to cooperatively support copy-paste, I bet app developers could be encouraged to support a keyboard standard. That likely wouldn't run into sandboxing problems (just a whole lot of duplicate code).

Hi Doglesby,

Obviously, system-wide support is what is needed.

Re: other use of keyboard -- if it isn't system-wie, who would really care?

I mean who is going to sell a piece of hardware like a fold-up keyboard for the iPhone, to go with their own iPhone app, with the knowledge that if it is remotely successful (unlikely, if the keyboard cannot be used systemwide) Apple will kill it dead by enabling BT or docking keyboards soon after the utility has been proven?

BTW: I called Apple yesterday, and -- after waiting 40m on hold -- got through to someone in the iPhone department whostated, essentially, "no keyboards, no way, no how."

It sucks for Apple to be so lame in this department.

I'd love to see a developer movement in support of a keyboard standard. I am not a person who knows how to get that going, myself, however. Know anyone who would like to spearhead that?

[doglesby]

burro said:

Hi Doglesby,


Obviously, system-wide support is what is needed.


Re: other use of keyboard -- if it isn't system-wie, who would really care?

Lots of people. You can easily provide an app or apps to do everything you need a keyboard for. Embedding email is easy now, apps have had embedded browsers since the App Store opened, there are even rich text editors. Like I said, it should be easy to provide the code to developers so they can easily support your keyboard.

Quote

I mean who is going to sell a piece of hardware like a fold-up keyboard for the iPhone, to go with their own iPhone app, with the knowledge that if it is remotely successful (unlikely, if the keyboard cannot be used systemwide) Apple will kill it dead by enabling BT or docking keyboards soon after the utility has been proven?

That wouldn't necessarily "kill" existing keyboards. If a keyboard developer simply implements the standard BT keyboard protocol and then Apple builds it into the system, there's a good chance they keyboard would actually gain system-wide support.

Quote

BTW: I called Apple yesterday, and -- after waiting 40m on hold -- got through to someone in the iPhone department whostated, essentially, "no keyboards, no way, no how."

We've never seen Apple go back on something they said they'd never do. Aren't you suggesting that "no one will make a keyboard because Apple might" and "Apple won't make a keyboard"?

Quote

I'd love to see a developer movement in support of a keyboard standard. I am not a person who knows how to get that going, myself, however. Know anyone who would like to spearhead that?

Anyone who makes portable BT keyboards.

[burro]

I dunno Dog...



Sounds like long-shots, to me...



I am pretty sure this will have to come from Apple, to fly.

[snapcridge]

Your accomplishments really have no weight in this discussion. It would seem however, that with all your knowledge that you would be experienced enough to know that real evaluation would require you to actually have used the products (and/or services) in a real world situation before making a true evaluation. The reason the iPhone was my first purchase of it's kind was simply because no other device I had ever seen up to that point worked in a fashion that made using less of a task. Up until this purchase I had seen several phones, 'smart-phones', PDAs, etc none of which were as simple to use or remotely as functional. RAZR I owned...crap!

You are wrong with your evaluation here because you make the same mistake a lot of "experts" do...you generalize and think that applies to the masses...IT DOESN'T! In my "real world" I use my iPhone for nearly ever aspect of my day to day operations. If I have to do production work, I use a computer! A fold out keyboard wouldn't even be something on my radar simply due to the fact that it defeats the purpose of why I bought my iPhone...to be able to do as many functions away from desk as I can without having to lug around a bunch of crap.

I'll stick to using my keyboard on my computer for doing any serious work. By the way...the iPhone is still in it's baby stages. Imagine what it will be able to do when it's tenure has reached that of Blackberry & Palm.

[burro]

{quote:title=snapcridge wrote:}{quote}
Your accomplishments really have no weight in this discussion. It would seem however, that with all your knowledge that you would be experienced enough to know that real evaluation would require you to actually have used the products (and/or services) in a real world situation before making a true evaluation. The reason the iPhone was my first purchase of it's kind was simply because no other device I had ever seen up to that point worked in a fashion that made using less of a task. Up until this purchase I had seen several phones, 'smart-phones', PDAs, etc none of which were as simple to use or remotely as functional. RAZR I owned...crap!
You are wrong with your evaluation here because you make the same mistake a lot of "experts" do...you generalize and think that applies to the masses...IT DOESN'T! In my "real world" I use my iPhone for nearly ever aspect of my day to day operations. If I have to do production work, I use a computer! A fold out keyboard wouldn't even be something on my radar simply due to the fact that it defeats the purpose of why I bought my iPhone...to be able to do as many functions away from desk as I can without having to lug around a bunch of crap.

I'll stick to using my keyboard on my computer for doing any serious work. By the way...the iPhone is still in it's baby stages. Imagine what it will be able to do when it's tenure has reached that of Blackberry & Palm.

{quote:title=snapcridge wrote:}{quote}
Your accomplishments really have no weight in this discussion. It would seem however, that with all your knowledge that you would be experienced enough to know that real evaluation would require you to actually have used the products (and/or services) in a real world situation before making a true evaluation. The reason the iPhone was my first purchase of it's kind was simply because no other device I had ever seen up to that point worked in a fashion that made using less of a task. Up until this purchase I had seen several phones, 'smart-phones', PDAs, etc none of which were as simple to use or remotely as functional. RAZR I owned...crap!
You are wrong with your evaluation here because you make the same mistake a lot of "experts" do...you generalize and think that applies to the masses...IT DOESN'T! In my "real world" I use my iPhone for nearly ever aspect of my day to day operations. If I have to do production work, I use a computer! A fold out keyboard wouldn't even be something on my radar simply due to the fact that it defeats the purpose of why I bought my iPhone...to be able to do as many functions away from desk as I can without having to lug around a bunch of crap.

I'll stick to using my keyboard on my computer for doing any serious work. By the way...the iPhone is still in it's baby stages. Imagine what it will be able to do when it's tenure has reached that of Blackberry & Palm.

Hey Snap,


I think we are off on the wrong foot because you are making some mistaken assumptions about where I am coming from.

I am not asking for any special "weight" due to experience -- I was just responding to your earlier insulting speculations about me.

You are making many more mistaken assumptions about me in this latest e-mail.

For example, I've used all the products I mentioned.

RAZRs -- I've used them -- people have good and bad experiences with any phone -- I can tell you that late model RAZRs got far better results where I live than just about any other phone at the time. Add a good PDA to a RAZR and you have many features an Iphone does not. It all depends what you want to do.

I currently use the z750a -- an excellent little phone despite ATT crippling it. Handles all my address-book and calendaring needs quite nicely. I tried the internet access on one and decided it wasn't what I wanted to do on that phone, but it is there for people who want it. Etc.

I think you've already admitted to limited experience with other products, so maybe you should pipe down about what does what -- maybe you have not really taken the time to find out what other products can do.

BTW: I am not an elitist "expert" -- I am someone who has helped people of all skill levels do what THEY need/want to do for over 25 years.

Yes -- there are a lot of people who like the iPhone -- as a toy, or because it has a nice screen, or whatever -- that's all fine, really.



My only point is that I think Apple is losing a huge customer segment who want to get the kind of work done that can only be done through a keyboard -- especially people whose needs are SIMPLE (not elitist) -- not DTP or video editing -- but yes data entry, note-taking, creative writing -- people who are now carrying around laptops or waiting until they get home to do those kinds of simple things.



In any case, I, too, enjoy thinking about what an iPhone might do in the future.

I didn't cry when there was no keyboard access to iPhone v1.

But I think they should have had it by iPhone v2.

[quadmax]

Quote

Simply put, after using a keyboard for entry, you'll never want to go back to screen-based entry.

You are painting with far too broad a brush. I have used Palm Pilots for many years, with and without remote keyboards, and my iPhone for the last year and I do not agree--the equation is more complicated than that. There are times when a keyboard is necessary and times when it is just too much baggage to lug around. Each situation being different, you cannot prescribe your personal feelings to everyone else in every situation.

I use my iPhone for "serious" work everyday.

[burro]

{quote:title=quadmax wrote:}{quote}

Simply put, after using a keyboard for entry, you'll never want to go back to screen-based entry.

You are painting with far too broad a brush. I have used Palm Pilots for many years, with and without remote keyboards, and my iPhone for the last year and I do not agree--the equation is more complicated than that. There are times when a keyboard is necessary and times when it is just too much baggage to lug around. Each situation being different, you cannot prescribe your personal feelings to everyone else in every situation.

Quadmax,
I accept your correction -- I was being rhetorical -- I should have said that "after keyboard entry" I do not want to go back to screen-based entry.

I use my iPhone for "serious" work everyday.

I accept that, too. I would just say that for many people, and for many common uses that COULD be achieved with the iPhone, the lack of a keyboard is a serious impediment.
How many of those tasks could you accomplish with a good PDA? VNC: sure. Calendaring: yes. Medical databases: yes. Spreadsheets: yes. Editing Microsoft documents: yes. And so on. And then you could have a phone that is easier to carry, easier to dial with one hand, and with better reception, no?

Honesty test -- how much of what you do with the iPhone is play, and how much could be accomplished as well another way?

Don't get me wrong -- if the iPhone makes work-related tasks more fun, I see that as a real benefit to the world.

I also see it as a benefit if it entertains people in a useful way.

For me, though I like the "toy" aspects of it -- music, video, etc. -- and I like the work tools that are there -- internet access, mainly -- lack of keyboard entrymeansI will begetting things done another way.

And I wish I could be using an iPhone/iPod for that.

How I'd love to go to the many meetings where I take notes and take notes with an iPhone/iPod instead of a laptop or paper.

How I'd love to write draft outlines for work or play, articles, research work, poetry, whatever, while on the bus or train.



You get the picture.

[snapcridge]

Wrong foot indeed...if I insulted you (not sure where)..my apologies. My simple fact is I didn't spend money on my iPhone to use it as a toy or because it has a nice screen. I bought it because I walked into the Apple Store after seeing the commercials and watching all the guided tours of it on Apple's website. I picked it up and instantly knew what to push and where to go to access the internet, check my email, make a phone call, read my text messages, and pull up my music.

Being a DJ I have an infinite number of songs and a ton of playlists and used iTunes religiously on my PC and having used my daughters iPod Nano, access to music on this device was simple and flawless. So I dove in.

After the App Store released on iTunes I started to realize the brevity of what I now had to run my small business as a web designer.

The point is...I never purchased any other device simply because it never did what I wanted it to do in an easy way. Of course the majority of the "smart-phone" manufacturers have a device that will do (to an extent) what the iPhone does, but I never saw one do it with such ease until after the iPhone was released.

Simply your statements may hold weight to someone somewhere, but I happen to like my iPhone and it does exactly what I need, when I need it to and at least up to this point, when it can do what I need it to, I hop over to the App Store to find what I need in order to make do what's needed.

Show me another device that can do that at the level the iPhone can and I will concede...hell I am conceding anyway. Kinda bored with the conversation. Fact is I see nothing out there that makes me want to switch and the missing external keyboard function...well I fine with the keyboard that comes with it (which will be even better in just a few hours from now).