[hayesk]

Apparently you also didn't take into account people have different usability preferences. In fact, let's get rid of toolbars altogether. People have menu commands - who needs buttons.

[bobgregg]

If you have a two button mouse, simply right click in the window and "reload page" should be one of the first selections in the menu.

[Macalways]

bobgregg said:

If you have a two button mouse, simply right click in the window and "reload page" should be one of the first selections in the menu.

Love it.

And for those with a one-button mouse, hold down the Control Key and click mouse.

[HandyMac]

Well, although the "report bug" button is not part of the default toolbar in the final release of Safari 4, I put it there so I could use it for the first time ever. This is what I reported:
Although the final release of Safari 4 is excellent in most respects, I find the redesigned toolbar a significant annoyance. I reload pages a lot, and over the last ~15 years have developed a "muscle memory" to click at the left end of the address field to do so.
The first time I tried to reload a page in Safari 4, I found myself creating an unwanted bookmark instead. Where's the reload button? I looked in the "Customize Toolbar" pane, but it wasn't there. Finally I found it, tucked away at the right end of the address field. Okay, it's there; but it feels both hidden and like a smaller target.
I suppose this location could not in principle be called "non-intuitive", since it's the URL you want to reload. But the reload button has always been located at/near the left end of the address field, in all Web browsers since at least Netscape 3 (which I fondly remember using on my tiny PowerBook 180c). I see no compelling reason to change this tradition -- just to be different?
The reload button was by far my most-used item on the toolbar, in Safari as well as other browsers. Having it moved to the right only in Safari is an annoyance comparable to those pop-up windows that often appear in Web pages, with their close button in the upper right, Windows-style: very non-intuitive for a 20+ year Mac user. Are the three red-yellow-green window buttons going to be moved to the right corner (only in Safari, just to be different) next?
I tried to drag the [] (add bookmark) button (which I never use) off the toolbar, but it wouldn't move. I finally figured out how to do it: First add an independent [] button, which makes the one connected to the URL field disappear, then drag it off the toolbar. Wow, that sure made sense.
I guess I'll just have to train myself to always use the keyboard to reload pages. I can do that -- it's what I do to add bookmarks -- but it's an inconvenience, for no good reason I can see.
In addition, the new way of showing page-loading progress is significantly inferior to what it replaced:
1) It's ugly, and jarringly interrupts Safari's otherwise subtly pleasing aesthetic.
2) As Pierre Igot explains in his usual thorough fashion , it actually provides less information than the previous method.
3) The previous blue "progress bar" system was one of the features that set Safari apart from other browsers; I guess you could say the new system does so as well, but not in a good way.
Safari's toolbar wasn't broke; I wish you hadn't "fixed" it. The impressive performance improvements and overall UI polishing were plenty enough to recommend the new Safari; it wasn't necessary to add more changes merely "for the sake of change".

[toad]

These various "short cuts" being suggested may work for some, but the point is usability for each person, not just you. If someone doesn't like the old button in Safari 3 then they can remove it or just ignore it, but if someone DOES like the button and wants it in Safari 4 then, sorry, they're out of luck. All hail the new king: "shortcuts" (for something that worked perfectly well already, at least for some). Again, WHY the change? This is clearly not win-win, and I doubt it is even win-lose, more like neutral-lose (those who don't like/want the button don't really gain anything, but those that do like/want the button lose)... What's to be gained with this change??

[toad]

hayesk said:

Apparently you also didn't take into account people have different usability preferences. In fact, let's get rid of toolbars altogether. People have menu commands - who needs buttons.

Indeed, what's with this primitive "mouse" thing anyway? Who would want to use such an ungainly contraption when we have a perfectly good keyboard to use for all our input needs?

Speaking of handy keyboard use, anyone remember the old "four-finger salute" to reset parameter RAM on startup? I remember seeing people trying to figure out how to get it to work at the same time as hitting the power switch that was nowhere near the keyboard ;-)

[Macalways]

HandyMac said:

1) It's ugly, and jarringly interrupts Safari's otherwise subtly pleasing aesthetic.

2) As Pierre Igot explains in his usual thorough fashion , it actually provides less information than the previous method.

3) The previous blue "progress bar" system was one of the features that set Safari apart from other browsers; I guess you could say the new system does so as well, but not in a good way.

Safari's toolbar wasn't broke; I wish you hadn't "fixed" it. The impressive performance improvements and overall UI polishing were plenty enough to recommend the new Safari; it wasn't necessary to add more changes merely "for the sake of change".

Anybody that has done any serious programming will tell you that the "progress bar" tells you sweet all except that the site is still in the 'downloading' phase. How much has been completed, how much is left to download or relative how much in each case or how much time it will take is not possible or achievable in a progress bar. At least, not in the way they are currently programmed.

Perhaps, I am spoiled by my ISP. With my current 10.70 MBps, sites come up so fast, even the spinning circle is redundant.

And if you like your mouse so much, why wouldn't a right-click be the ultimate action to reload a page?

[diazj3]

+ 1 in the reload/stop button issue.
I hope they bring it back to the original location, with the same option of customization.

[FrankCDN]

huh..just like that..Thanks!!!! :)

[doglesby]

Macalways said:

Anybody that has done any serious programming will tell you that the "progress bar" tells you sweet all except that the site is still in the 'downloading' phase. How much has been completed, how much is left to download or relative how much in each case or how much time it will take is not possible or achievable in a progress bar. At least, not in the way they are currently programmed.

That's not exactly true. The progress bar on web page loading can't tell you how much time is left, but it tells you what proportion of the page is loaded. I frequently encounter pages where Google Analytics won't load. I used to know the page was basically complete because the progress bar was nearly full (and the status bar indicates that all but one item loaded, but that is not visual nor where I'm looking). A full or nearly full progress bar tells me I can start interacting with page elements without fear that some element will load at the top of the page, pushing everything down, making me click on the wrong link.

Quote

And if you like your mouse so much, why wouldn't a right-click be the ultimate action to reload a page?

Because that's a right click to bring up the menu, move down to Reload (but not too far to Open in Dashboard), and another click to select. And that assumes your mouse was already over the page. As has been stated already, the existence of other options is not relevant to the location and size of the reload button. If you hate the reload button, why aren't you upset that you can't remove it anymore?

[toad]

Macalways said:

And if you like your mouse so much, why wouldn't a right-click be the ultimate action to reload a page?

Don't think this was addressed to me, but the obvious answer for me is that in my case my personal computer doesn't have a mouse, but rather a 1-button track pad. The option for me would be to push CTRL then click, then move on track pad to the "Reload Page" option. Depending on where your hands were prior to this it is likely not as convenient the other options (go to & click reload, or hit command-r)...

But again, it really ought to be about catering to the user's needs unless there is a clear reason to do otherwise, not making the user tailor their actions to what (by all accounts so far!) is an arbitrary UI modification with no clear precedent other than the space-compromised iPhone/iPod Touch Safari... Why REMOVE a capability that is in demand by a segment of users? It's not like they dropped the ability to customize that part of the interface!

[Skeptic3]

This is a great tip.

Personally, I've always found Safari's toolbar customization options to be too limited. They've added to the number of functions in Safari 4, but it's still relatively limited compared to most browsers.

[XMattingly]

Quote

doglesby wrote: Too bad this doesn't work with the Reload button.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like that change. I think it's bad UI, and graphically inconsistent with the "load bar" that it switches places with.

It really seems like a lot of the interface - including removing tabs from the top - were done in a big hurry between the beta and final release of Safari 4. The crappy thing is that we're probably going to have to wait for Apple to produce another full release before we see more polish on that stuff.

[Macalways]

doglesby said:

>>The progress bar on web page loading can't tell you how much time is left, but it tells you what proportion of the page is loaded.

No it doesn't.

doglesby said:

> If you hate the reload button, why aren't you upset that you can't remove it anymore?

I never said I hated the reload button. I just never use it. Waste of time.
>
I guess you have to be a power user and be open to change to appreciate advances in technology. I find it interesting to see a lot of students here at the university sitting (rather lounging) in the libraries surfing the net.
>
Now I must admit that I didn't realize that so many only use one hand, i.e., the one holding the mouse, and seldom the keyboard.
>
To see so many using their mouse to scroll to the bottom of the page and then scoot to the top to reload, move back and forward, move to the next tab, etc., is really depressing to watch, IMO.
>
Does anybody else have problems getting paragraphing to work?
>
Maybe Steve was right in the first place. A quick survey amongst my colleagues seems to suggest that most of us who were brought up in the early days, i.e., 1984, with the single-button mouse, tend to use keyboard shortcuts more.