[HandyMac]

First, an apology: My post above was written in TextEdit and copied to enter in this thread. It was originally divided into paragraphs, but for some unknown reason the forum's software strung it all together into one long, hard-to-read paragraph.

(Also, the "Plain Text Markup Help" button opens a window headed "Plain Text Markup Help" but otherwise blank, so I'm just going to have to wing it.)

P.S.: The Plain Text editor seems to be malfunctioning; I can find no way to separate paragraphs. I'll try the Rich Text. P.P.S.: I can't figure this out; I'll just hope it'll work.

Macalways wrote: And if you like your mouse so much, why wouldn't a right-click be the ultimate action to reload a page?

Actually, I almost never use a mouse, as I've been on portable Macs since I got my first Mac Portable in 1991. Yes, I can tap with two fingers on the trackpad of my MacBook Pro to invoke a contextual menu, then choose "Reload Page". But that is more complicated that simply clicking a button on the toolbar.

Here's how it works: I maintain up to a dozen or so open windows in Safari (Macworld, MacInTouch, etc.). I browse between them frequently, which entails clicking on the Window menu and selecting one item therefrom. At that point, my finger is on the trackpad, and the cursor is normally near the top of the selected window that has just appeared. Thus it is easy to move the cursor a few inches and tap on the reload button. As I wrote above, after 15+ years I'm pretty accustomed to moving the cursor to the left end of the address field to click on the reload button, as that's where it's always been since modern Web browsers were first developed -- and that's where it still is in all browsers except (now) Safari.

Sure, I can:

(a) Retrain myself to seek out the reload icon in its new location at the right end of the address field. It's true it's not really any smaller than it was before, but it feels smaller, and feels like it's been semi-hidden in a location that requires precise targeting, because it's somewhere in the middle of the toolbar rather than at one end. This is reminiscent of the oft-cited the usability differences between the Mac menu bar at the top of the screen, an easy target, and Windows menu bars in the window, wherever it happens to be on the screen, which require more effort to hit.

(b) Double-tap in the window to invoke a contextual menu, then move over (sometimes down -- it's not always the first item on the menu) to highlight "Reload Page" and tap to select it. Again, this is more trouble (both more steps and a re-routing of muscle memory) than what I used to (be able to) do.

© Move my focus to the keyboard and press cmd-R to reload the page. Again, this is more trouble than what I used to (be able to) do. It's true I'm a big fan of keyboard shortcuts (as you note in a later post, I'm used to single-button mice, trackballs and trackpads since I got my first Plus in 1988), and use the keyboard for many other things, e.g. making bookmarks. But that works best when my focus/fingers are already on the keyboard. It is not convenient if I'm already using the trackpad, as described above; in that case, continuing with the trackpad to do one simple thing is far more convenient.

But my point is, why should I have to retrain myself to do any of these things? If, as someone guesses above, this change is to align Safari-for-Mac's interface with Safari-for-iPhone, I sure hope it's not the beginning of a trend. I'm happy for Apple that the iPhone is such a success, but I don't have one myself, and I sure don't want to have my Macintosh use stuffed into the straitjacket of the iPhone UI.

I can see no compelling reason for this change. If it's not about iPhone-ing the Mac, it's simply a minor UI change because some Jolted-up codejockey thought it looked nicer, without giving any thought to what it really will entail for users. Again, no other major Web browser has its Reload button hidden in a variable position in the middle of its toolbar. And I very much doubt any of them will follow Safari's lead in this case.

It's a classic case of "fixing" something that wasn't broke, without taking the time to consider the implications, and causing a lot of hassle thereby. Sometimes I wonder if the people who write the software ever spend any time actually using it.

[Macalways]

HandyMac said:

Quote

It's a classic case of "fixing" something that wasn't broke, without taking the time to consider the implications, and causing a lot of hassle thereby. Sometimes I wonder if the people who write the software ever spend any time actually using it.

Actually, Apple does more than anybody else.

Why anybody would be so fixed on such a little thing as moving a button or two without your consent is perplexing to say the least.

Just because it was there, doesn't mean that it always has to be there. No matter how many are used to it or how many it may interfere the lives with.

Could you imagine the turmoil that would ensue if all of a sudden your front door swung outward and not the standard, inward toward the wall.

Well, I had a colleague of mine move to Oklahoma and while his new 'custom' built home was being constructed, he noticed that when he tried to open the front door, the door swung outward.

Being the calm, cool and a highly progressive individual that he wasn't, caused him to run screaming to the foreman to have the hinges reinstalled 'properly. No matter how much they tried to tell him that this was the way they did it down there, his northern temper prevailed. They changed the hinges. But his rant was still filling the air when 'his' first hurricane came a blowing.

However, the wind blew so hard that he couldn't close his front door.

Well, he has a new home now with all his outside doors swinging outward, as well as a new dog. It took a catastrophe, but he did learn to adapt.

[toad]

Macalways said:

Why anybody would be so fixed on such a little thing as moving a button or two without your consent is perplexing to say the least.

You've mis-characterized the issue. It has already been stated, but since you raise the issue again....

It's not about the specific change in the placement of the button, it's about the removal of the OPTION to place it where you want (or remove it). As we've seen from MacHandy's comments, people do develop habits even to the point of muscle memory based on prolonged use of anything. Sure, they can retrain, but one would hope there would be a good reason to make a change and remove the option for users to change back to the "old way." Good interface designers will realize this and where it is feasible will allow people to set things up as they wish. Placement of buttons in Safari has long been flexible in this regard, but suddenly Apple has decided to remove an element of that flexibility, and it is frankly hard to see why they would do this (what is the benefit of dropping that flexibility?).

When using the trackpad on my laptop at home (and the mouse at work) the cursor spends a lot of time in the upper left area of the screen (menu bar for OS, Finder sidebars, Safari bookmark bar, Safari tabs, etc.). Clicking the reload button was a natural when a hand was on the trackpad/mouse with Safari 3, but now you'd have to roll over to the far right side of the screen to click reload (once you get over the disorientation of not seeing it in the place it has been for many years). It's details like this that can make or break a good UI, and in this aspect Apple's removal of the OPTION to have the button on the left was a poor choice.

Macalways said:

Just because it was there, doesn't mean that it always has to be there. No matter how many are used to it or how many it may interfere the lives with.

Yes... but WHY remove the option here? How would you like having to adapt to using right-click instead of left, and vice versa? You'd probably want there to be a darned good reason for someone doing something like that, as you'd have to retrain your deeply-seated muscle memory. But that would be no problem if you could use software to reverse the button assignments to put them back where they "belong" (software can be very adaptable in such things!). Unfortunately, Apple has removed the option from the software in this case, so those users who are accustomed to the prior placement (and option to move it) will just have to deal with it.

But.... WHY? Anyone have an idea?? Why remove that flexible OPTION?

[SimpleBeep]

Oh. My. God. Thank you so much for this hint! Perhaps the only less-useful button in the toolbar than the plusbutton is the "report bug" button.
Thankyouthankyouthankyou!