[deemery]

Another overlooked point: Apple, although not perfect, is obsessed with the end customer experience. Their products are so much easier to use than the competition. More companies need to return to that kind of customer focus.
What he said :-) Plus one more thing: Most of the time, Apple invests in higher quality components, something that also justifies their higher prices. I've definitely seen this on Apple laptops, where they're much more rugged than comparable machines from Dell, HP, etc (Lenovo also justifies higher price with higher quality components). it's also visible for the longer effective service life for most Apple products; I have a friend still using a 1st Gen iPod and my public server runs on a 7 year old G4/933. Better quality hardware plus the better quality software/systems integration are both critical to the overall user experience of "it just works" (and continues to 'just work').

[MrYmath]

No, the iphone may not be killed by a competing phone, but it may in fact be killed, or better out, commit suicide by AT&T, 2-yr required service contracts, no tethering, app store restrictions on developers, and other such non-phone specific factors.

[lkrupp]

But this is the very argument used by the Windows crowd to denigrate the Mac. Market share is everything, in their opinion. The Mac has a small market share compared to the overall PC market, therefore the Mac is an abject failure as a product. Should not the Palm Pre be judged in the same way by the same people. Yet it is not. Go figure.

[ericole]

OS X - hardware/software - computer company at heart. That's the difference.

[Steve_S]

Macworld said:

When the iPhone took the cell phone world by storm two years ago, it was viewed as a revolutionary, game-changing new device that would alter how mobile phone users consumed data on their devices.

This is the key difference between the Palm Pre and the iPhone. Had the roles been reversed, the Palm Pre would likely be enjoying the success Apple enjoys today and it would be Apple trying to fight the uphill battle. As the article mentions, when the iPhone was introduced, the user interface completely blew away EVERYTHING else. The Web OS wasn't even on the drawing board. Apple set the bar (and expectations) way above current levels with the release of the iPhone. Then came the competition. Most aren't even worth mentioning, including the Storm, etc. The Palm Pre was the first phone to even play in the same league. That's actually high praise for the Pre, but just being in the same league isn't enough to knock off the leader. The iPhone has enough momentum to simply steam role anything that's not clearly "better". By measures of opening sales weekends (50,000 vs 1,000,000+), the Pre is getting steam rolled and understandably so. Of course, that doesn't mean the fight for 3rd or 4th place isn't lucrative enough to save Palm as a company. It probably is enough to keep Palm afloat.

[Steve_S]

lkrupp said:

But this is the very argument used by the Windows crowd to denigrate the Mac. Market share is everything, in their opinion. The Mac has a small market share compared to the overall PC market, therefore the Mac is an abject failure as a product. Should not the Palm Pre be judged in the same way by the same people. Yet it is not. Go figure.

Who says the Palm Pre isn't being judged by quality? All of the hype was pre release. The WebOS looks pretty nice. However, Palm is being plagued with serious build quality issues.

http://abcnews.go.co...=7971290&page=1
http://www.macworld....07/palmpre.html

Palm needed to hit a home run with the Pre, but instead barely has a base hit. Again, the WebOS looks nice, but they went cheap on the hardware and have build quality issues to boot. They either need to follow up with another phone relatively quickly, or their success will be limited to a relatively small percentage of Palm Zealots that quite frankly would be better off with either an iPhone or a Blackberry.

[rab777hp]

The iPhone will die out, not perhaps to extinction- but to a low recessed place in the market- Android devices will take the majority, palm rim and nokia taking the rest, with a single digit percentage market share for iPhone. It will be kind of like the computer market. The iPhone had the advantage of being put out first of the good smartphones (albeit being a very unpolished product, it still was pretty advanced for the time), there's no way it will be able to stop the relentless wave of android that is coming.
Even archos can probably take a share too.
And open source is one of Android's biggest advantages.
And I expect many more devices on the webOS to come, its a brilliant idea.

[youthdude]

rab777hp said:

And open source is one of Android's biggest advantages.

Yeah. That did wonders for making Linux take over the computer market.

[rab777hp]

It actually has an invisible influence.

But no- there's a difference- linux isn't advertised or marketed or promoted, many people haven't even heard of linux (I know- amazing right?), mark my words- android will take over- or some newer OS we have not yet seen.

[Steve_S]

rab777hp said:

The iPhone will die out, not perhaps to extinction- but to a low recessed place in the market- Android devices will take the majority, palm rim and nokia taking the rest, with a single digit percentage market share for iPhone.

LOL! If nothing else, I have to thank you for posting something so ridiculous that I had no choice by to laugh out loud. ;-) I actually like the Android (at least in concept - the G1 is horrible), but there is no evidence to support your conclusion. As for Nokia, I have news for you - Symbian is not even a contender. Nokia has good hardware, but they need a MUCH better OS if they wish to compete in the smartphone market. Symbian is fine for the free, included with your contract, dumb phone devices. Palm will be lucky to simply survive much less grow significantly. I generally like the WebOS, but the Pre hardware is a miss - cheap materials, poor build quality, etc. RIM is the only real future competitor here and that's largely due to their corporate lock in (at least for now).

Quote

It will be kind of like the computer market. The iPhone had the advantage of being put out first of the good smartphones (albeit being a very unpolished product, it still was pretty advanced for the time), there's no way it will be able to stop the relentless wave of android that is coming.

Would that be anything like the relentless wave of desktop Linux dominance that we've been experiencing over the past years? ;-) I'm actually surprised that Android hasn't done better by now. Unfortunately, staying generations behind the iPhone with far less momentum isn't going to help them much. I do expect Android to become the default OS for the handset makers not capable of making their own devices. You know, the same people that would have otherwise relied on Windows Mobile to be their salvation.

Quote

Even archos can probably take a share too.

Huh? They couldn't even hold on to the small lead in MP3 player market, what makes you think they even have the potential to be a player in the phone market? Hardware engineering? No. Software engineering? No. Fantasy wishful thinking? Maybe for you.

Quote

And open source is one of Android's biggest advantages.

Agreed. But, what have they done with it so far? Nothing. Further, the masses are not idealist and don't care whether something is open source or proprietary. They just want the best device or perhaps the best device at the right price.

Quote

And I expect many more devices on the webOS to come, its a brilliant idea.

What idea would that be? Linux phones aren't new. Cool touch screen interfaces aren't new. Web apps are new, but they also come with limitations. For example, you won't see cutting edge games like you do on the iPhone running on the WebOS devices anytime soon. It has the potential to attract developers, but clearly the iPhone is having no issues getting developers to support the platform and that's even when forcing them to program on a Mac, learn Cocoa using Xcode.

>mark my words- android will take over- or some newer OS we have not yet seen.

Way to hedge your bets there... Since your speaking completely of fantasy with nothing to support your conclusion, why not just hold out for that "some newer OS we have not yet seen". Sure, I'll bet on that one too! ;-)

[rab777hp]

http://www.bradreese...arket-share.gif

And the G1 is AMAZING, i have one, and life is just great with it.
While I agree with you that nokia isn't very good, the fact remains- they dominate the market.
And sorry, i have to agree with you in reverse here

LOL! If nothing else, I have to thank you for posting something so ridiculous that I had no choice by to laugh out loud. ;)


Refer to my previous post for linux.

Archos is great- have you seen the specs on their devices? They actually have flash my friend, and arestarting to use android. They have the best portable media devices on the market. They just released some phones too, which may have potential, and if they start using android...

And open source makes devices better, I don't think you understand about opensource, open source improves devices, in a way closed source can never compete.

The webOS is great with its synergy technology, one of the best ideas i've heard of in a while.

And i'll hold my word on that bet!

[Wondercow]

rab777hp said:

And the G1 is AMAZING, i have one, and life is just great with it.

Including the "kill-switch"--the one you claimed that, if it did exist, some open-source programmer would have found and disabled by now? The one Google themselves admits to but that you claim doesn't exist?

[rab777hp]

As opposed to the iPhone kill switch which we know for certain IS there, and can't do anything about it?

[ReeceTarbert]

Quote

{quote:title=Steve_S wrote: }{quote}Nokia has good hardware, but they need a MUCH better OS if they wish to compete in the smartphone market.

Uh? Are you referring to the US market alone or what? Because:

* According to Wikipedia Symbian "has the largest share in most markets worldwide, but lags behind other companies in the relatively small but highly visible North American market";

* According to Gartner Symbian's maket share in Q4 08 was 47.1% (down from 62.3% in Q4 07, likely losing ground because of RIM and Apple);

* Nokia itself still retains the lead in market share with 38.9% in Q3 08 (but down from 51.4% in Q3 07).




RT.