[Macworld]

Post your comments for Remains of the Day: Walk the walk, talk the talk here

[RaeHolmen]

So instead of a 7" iPad, Apple will offer a nearly 7" phone? Might be interesting.

[dbutenhof]

RaeHolmen, on 16 May 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

So instead of a 7" iPad, Apple will offer a nearly 7" phone? Might be interesting.

The iPhone 4 is physically about 4 1/2 inches tall already; there's roughly 3/4 inches above and below the screen. Combined with rumors about removing the physical button, it seems likely that the speaker grill, camera, and sensor at the top could be shifted to make room for a 4 inch screen with little or no change in the overall height of the phone.

A larger screen would be great, e.g. some of the edge-to-edge fakes that have circulated. Larger phone... not so great; the physical size is nice now. We'll just have to wait and see.

I'm always highly amused when I see the ads for the Galaxy Note... "the best of phone and tablet" -- which actually strikes me as exactly the opposite. Too big and awkward for a phone, too small to really be useful as a tablet. I'd hate to see that happen to the iPhone.

[bastion]

Macworld, on 16 May 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Cupertino’s lawyers argued in a filing that the complaining customers could have just returned their phones, but didn’t. One of the customers reportedly retorted that that was only because he couldn’t get Siri to direct him to the nearest Apple Store.

It's too bad that last part is the statutory snark for this item because that would, in fact, be an awesome thing for someone to have said.

Returning an otherwise excellent device because one ancillary feature of the device doesn't work quite as well as you expected (I'm explicitly not addressing whether the expectation in this specific case was justified.) is a ridiculous remedy to suggest.

[henryhbk]

dbutenhof, on 17 May 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

RaeHolmen, on 16 May 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

So instead of a 7" iPad, Apple will offer a nearly 7" phone? Might be interesting.

The iPhone 4 is physically about 4 1/2 inches tall already; there's roughly 3/4 inches above and below the screen. Combined with rumors about removing the physical button, it seems likely that the speaker grill, camera, and sensor at the top could be shifted to make room for a 4 inch screen with little or no change in the overall height of the phone.

A larger screen would be great, e.g. some of the edge-to-edge fakes that have circulated. Larger phone... not so great; the physical size is nice now. We'll just have to wait and see.

I'm always highly amused when I see the ads for the Galaxy Note... "the best of phone and tablet" -- which actually strikes me as exactly the opposite. Too big and awkward for a phone, too small to really be useful as a tablet. I'd hate to see that happen to the iPhone.

While it is physically "easy" to put the larger screen in the iPhone 4 case, the effect of that on software would be large. That would change the aspect ratio on the screen which would distort everything. Now just like HD vs Movies we could have black bars on our applications, but since for a universal app you now have 4 sets of graphics (regular, @2x and iPhone and iPad) this would start to be ridiculous. Now we could have @2x and @2.3x or whatever... They could go for a slightly lower resolution and simply fill more space, but not sure of the advantage in that (the small bezel on the sides is important as you can't actually bend your thumb too close to the edge). I actually like the fact that my fingers can reach the whole screen with one hand on the phone.

[HerbalEd]

A 4" screen is far from being "nearly 7".

[DocNo]

bastion, on 17 May 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

Returning an otherwise excellent device because one ancillary feature of the device doesn't work quite as well as you expected (I'm explicitly not addressing whether the expectation in this specific case was justified.) is a ridiculous remedy to suggest.

I think it's rediculous to expect that someone would sue over an "ancillary feature"

[bastion]

DocNo, on 17 May 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

bastion, on 17 May 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

Returning an otherwise excellent device because one ancillary feature of the device doesn't work quite as well as you expected (I'm explicitly not addressing whether the expectation in this specific case was justified.) is a ridiculous remedy to suggest.

I think it's rediculous to expect that someone would sue over an "ancillary feature"

Ancillary doesn't mean unimportant. If a salient promise was made about the performance or capabilities of a device and that promise wasn't kept I have no trouble with someone seeking reasonable remedy or restitution from the device maker. (Or whoever it was that made the promise.) The question in this case is whether or not Apple's advertising constituted such a promise. (And, for what it's worth, I don't think so.)

[LeTap]

Siri is still beta, is free and we're all beta-testers.

[johndrake]

LeTap, on 17 May 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Siri is still beta, is free and we're all beta-testers.

To me that is THE point in this entire case, how can one expect a "free beta" to always work as expected. And that should have been the Apple lawyers response not the "return it" one that is sure to elicit a lot of flashback!
One of the ideas of releasing Siri at such an early stage of development was so that it could/can be taught to respond to different dialects and regional accents, and words, in essence we are all helping to teach/improve Siri, Sort of like "The Taming of the Shrew".

This post has been edited by johndrake: 20 May 2012 - 07:11 AM

[NightshadesMac]

johndrake, on 20 May 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

LeTap, on 17 May 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Siri is still beta, is free and we're all beta-testers.

To me that is THE point in this entire case, how can one expect a "free beta" to always work as expected. And that should have been the Apple lawyers response not the "return it" one that is sure to elicit a lot of flashback!
One of the ideas of releasing Siri at such an early stage of development was so that it could/can be taught to respond to different dialects and regional accents, and words, in essence we are all helping to teach/improve Siri, Sort of like "The Taming of the Shrew".

Precisely! That would be the most cogent response to all the furor. Were I the judge in such a case I would simply silence the courtroom and ask, "Are you unfamiliar with what the term 'beta' means regarding software"? If everyone agreed that they did know what that means I'd say, "Great. Case dismissed", bang the gavel and get up and leave. People have gotten far too litigious anyway but suing over beta software has really gone quite far beyond what could ever be expected as reasonable.

It's in BETA people, get over it! When/if it ever reaches 1.0 and THEN doesn't work as expected you might have a gripe. One I don't think necessarily needs a court ruling to satisfy but you'd then have a legitimate complaint over it.

[bastion]

NightshadesMac, on 21 May 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

johndrake, on 20 May 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

LeTap, on 17 May 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Siri is still beta, is free and we're all beta-testers.

To me that is THE point in this entire case, how can one expect a "free beta" to always work as expected. And that should have been the Apple lawyers response not the "return it" one that is sure to elicit a lot of flashback!
One of the ideas of releasing Siri at such an early stage of development was so that it could/can be taught to respond to different dialects and regional accents, and words, in essence we are all helping to teach/improve Siri, Sort of like "The Taming of the Shrew".

Precisely! That would be the most cogent response to all the furor. Were I the judge in such a case I would simply silence the courtroom and ask, "Are you unfamiliar with what the term 'beta' means regarding software"? If everyone agreed that they did know what that means I'd say, "Great. Case dismissed", bang the gavel and get up and leave. People have gotten far too litigious anyway but suing over beta software has really gone quite far beyond what could ever be expected as reasonable.

It's in BETA people, get over it! When/if it ever reaches 1.0 and THEN doesn't work as expected you might have a gripe. One I don't think necessarily needs a court ruling to satisfy but you'd then have a legitimate complaint over it.

While reiterating that I don't believe there's merit to this specific case, I would point out that:
1. Apple really doesn't make much of an effort to point out that Siri is beta.
2. Lots of people "know what beta means" but they don't all agree with each other.

[johndrake]

bastion, on 21 May 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

NightshadesMac, on 21 May 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

johndrake, on 20 May 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

LeTap, on 17 May 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Siri is still beta, is free and we're all beta-testers.

To me that is THE point in this entire case, how can one expect a "free beta" to always work as expected. And that should have been the Apple lawyers response not the "return it" one that is sure to elicit a lot of flashback!
One of the ideas of releasing Siri at such an early stage of development was so that it could/can be taught to respond to different dialects and regional accents, and words, in essence we are all helping to teach/improve Siri, Sort of like "The Taming of the Shrew".

Precisely! That would be the most cogent response to all the furor. Were I the judge in such a case I would simply silence the courtroom and ask, "Are you unfamiliar with what the term 'beta' means regarding software"? If everyone agreed that they did know what that means I'd say, "Great. Case dismissed", bang the gavel and get up and leave. People have gotten far too litigious anyway but suing over beta software has really gone quite far beyond what could ever be expected as reasonable.

It's in BETA people, get over it! When/if it ever reaches 1.0 and THEN doesn't work as expected you might have a gripe. One I don't think necessarily needs a court ruling to satisfy but you'd then have a legitimate complaint over it.

While reiterating that I don't believe there's merit to this specific case, I would point out that:
1. Apple really doesn't make much of an effort to point out that Siri is beta.
2. Lots of people "know what beta means" but they don't all agree with each other.

I understand that you do not believe in the merits of this case, however you seem content to point out reasons that it is.
I would like to know if the folks involved were told by the Apple reps at the very beginning of their issues that Siri is in fact a beta program
And if not, then they need some serious re-orientaion. To my way of thinking anyone that answers a customer's call in reference to Siri issues/problem, the first thing said in reply would be, "your are aware, are you not, that Siri is a beta program?" and then go on to educate them about betas, and then note their specific complaint/problem/issue/reason for the call!
And while it is true that there are many definitions to the word itself, i.e. with a capital B or lower case b and even within those 2 breakdowns, in regards to software it is a rather straight forward definition and part of a recognized process:

1 Stages of development
1.1 Pre-alpha
1.2 Alpha
1.3 Beta
1.3.1 Open and closed beta
1.4 Release candidate

[bastion]

johndrake, on 21 May 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

bastion, on 21 May 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

While reiterating that I don't believe there's merit to this specific case, I would point out that:
1. Apple really doesn't make much of an effort to point out that Siri is beta.
2. Lots of people "know what beta means" but they don't all agree with each other.

I understand that you do not believe in the merits of this case, however you seem content to point out reasons that it is.

Not at all. There's a distinction between saying "that argument has merit" and "this rebuttal to that argument does is not well-founded." I'm doing the latter. It's been my experience that invalid rebuttals can often be counterproductive; worse than not saying anything at all.

The prior 3 posts were hammering on the fact that Siri is a beta and implying that everyone should know that (leaving aside, for now, understand what it means for Apple for this product). Look at Siri's marketting. Where does it say beta? Not on TV. Not in print ads. A few times on Apple's web site. The first place you might see it is on the main product page (which is 6 screens tall on my current machine) in tiny text, in a low-contrast color, in the middle of a footer (while most Apple pages have the footnotes above the footer). I imagine I'm not unique in being surrounded by iPhone users. Take a poll and see how many of them know that Siri's officially a beta product.

Quote

I would like to know if the folks involved were told by the Apple reps at the very beginning of their issues that Siri is in fact a beta program
And if not, then they need some serious re-orientaion. To my way of thinking anyone that answers a customer's call in reference to Siri issues/problem, the first thing said in reply would be, "your are aware, are you not, that Siri is a beta program?" and then go on to educate them about betas, and then note their specific complaint/problem/issue/reason for the call!

I'm not sure what the relevance or mitigating aspect might be of telling a user that the product they've already bought wasn't finished. Wouldn't really mollify me.

Quote

And while it is true that there are many definitions to the word itself, i.e. with a capital B or lower case b and even within those 2 breakdowns, in regards to software it is a rather straight forward definition and part of a recognized process:

1 Stages of development
1.1 Pre-alpha
1.2 Alpha
1.3 Beta
1.3.1 Open and closed beta
1.4 Release candidate

To start with, that image has a serious flaw in it. I've never once seen a developer of any size declare "gold" after GA. Even aside from that problem, though, the image doesn't really define what each of the stages mean. They very distinctly do not have, as you say, "a rather straight forward definition." For "beta" in particular the definitions are highly variable and the debates highly contentious because this is generally the first point at which people outside the development organization see the product. When I began programming, probably the most common implication of "beta" was "no known bugs." That doesn't seem to work well in modern contexts where high-profile products make it to GA with defect lists that are dozens or hundreds of pages long. (That's one defect per printed line, mind you.)

Then, regardless of how many different ways working developers decide to define milestones for their project, users come to the table with their own interpretations based on their imperfect memories of their inconsistent prior experiences.