[BayGBM]

>...WITH THE OPTION of upgrading up to a Radeon 9800 Pro, a 80 GB hard drive, and Combo drive for $799?
I'd buy that!
I suspect upgrade card makers would not be happy to see such an offering.
In addition, it would kill sales of the new iMac. I think many people would rather use a cheap old CRT at 17" or 19" with a headless Mac than spend $1500 on a screen inclusive iMac.

[MacCheetah3]

Hi
I have plenty of experience with both Windows and Mac OS platforms, hardware and software.
Let's get a few things straight. eMac, iMac, and iBook are for those designated regular "consumers" and Power Mac and PowerBook are for those designated "professionals".
A regular consumer uses their computer for the moderate to possibly occasional gaming, word processing, Internet surfing, email, and some other daily low impact, and less important (normally entertainment centered) tasks.
A professional uses their computer to make top dollar and usually requires high impact processes and in a particular time frame.
Therefore, it works out perfectly. A professional can usually requires and can afford top notch equipment and software because his/her skills allow them to regain the expenses.
As for gaming...The iMac is perfect for those who play moderate quality games up to 50% or so of the time. Even on the Wintel side, a gamer looking to constantly play the latest and greatest using top quality graphics at and above 60 fps is going to spend top dollar on his/her computer just like on the Mac. A $1,000 Dell isn't going to play Doom III at high quality. For a quick example, look at the prices of custom builders like Alienware.

All in all, the affordable Power Mac is something called an iMac. Try to remember that most people aren't going to give up what they deserve just because you want them to. Just the same you wouldn't do for them.

MacCheetah3
Apple PowerBook G4 Titanium 1GHz, 1GB, 60GB, SuperDrive, Airport, Mac OS X, 20GB iPod (4G)
Debug Computer Services http://www.click2debug.com

[Praxis]

You're not getting it. Some people actually DO like to play high end games. I'd be PERFECTLY happy with an iMac, IF THE GRAPHICS CARD WAS UPGRADEABLE!
Since it's not, I want a PowerMac.
A SP 1.8 for $1599 would be perfect.
Look at it this way. Let's say I want to get a Mac for games. But the only way to do this is to buy a DUAL 1.8 G5 PowerMac, then upgrade the graphics card, because no other computer has an upgradeable graphics card.
But the dual 1.8 costs $2000 minimum without a good graphics card, and most games only use one processor so it's wasted!
So Apple should give the option of a bigger graphics card for the iMac and/or eMac.

[MacCheetah3]

Hi
I understand some play high end games. What I said was no matter which platform you're using, you're going to pay a couple grand, at least, for being able to play the latest and greatest games at decent to great quality.
Apple doesn't really need to conform to gaming needs.
1) There are numerous companies already (yes Windows based PCs) that offer gaming specific rigs
2) You have a handful of gaming consoles
3) Many game developers shun away from Mac OS compatibility because of the sales numbers and they probably wouldn't increase dramatically if your wish did come true.
MacCheetah3
Apple PowerBook G4 Titanium 1GHz, 1GB, 60GB, SuperDrive, Airport, Mac OS X, 20GB iPod (4G)
Debug Computer Services http://www.click2debug.com

[Praxis]

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1) There are numerous companies already (yes Windows based PCs) that offer gaming specific rigs

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Yes, but I want it on one desktop. I don't want to switch between several desktops or have seperate Mac and Windows versions of software.

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2) You have a handful of gaming consoles

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Nothing matches a keyboard and mouse.

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3) Many game developers shun away from Mac OS compatibility because of the sales numbers and they probably wouldn't increase dramatically if your wish did come true.

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So what? They have all the games I want- so I'm happy. Check the list- there's a ton of Mac games.

In reply to:

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I understand some play high end games. What I said was no matter which platform you're using, you're going to pay a couple grand, at least, for being able to play the latest and greatest games at decent to great quality.

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Are you kidding? A $500 PC a $200 graphics card (Geforce 6600GT perhaps?) can OWN almost all modern games on high quality.

An iMac G5 1.6 GHz a Radeon 9800 Pro ($300 upgrade) would be a perfect gaming machine. Even with a Radeon 9600XT would be great.

[Grant_G]

Actually, Praxis, it's you who doesn't get it. MacCheetah3 has capably explained the Apple business model to you. He has also explained that relatively similar machines at the very high end cost relatively the same amount, regardless of platform. He isn't addressing consumer level products when doing so, nor, obviously, has Apple chosen to do so by its decision to not make the eMac or new iMac to YOUR specifications. He has given you Apple's game plan on a platter -- you persist in wishful thinking. Apple isn't Dell. They don't have the same BTO capabilities. By design, I suspect.
G

[Praxis]

Yes, but it's not the Pro's that play the games /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif The Consumer (or prosumer at least) machines should be capable of playing higher end games.
I mean, how hard would it be to get a Radeon 9600 in the iMac G5 instead of the FX 5200 Ultra? It would give gamers a computer to buy, without stealing away any of the light from the PowerMacs.

[enb141]

Yeah totally agree with you, they should consider to bring a model in where the AGP Card (or a PCI express) could be exchanged by another one (not integrated) like your hard drive or your system memory, even if you cannot choose when you bought it, at least you can replace it by yourself or in an authorized dealer/repair center.

[MacCheetah3]

Hi
The fact of the matter is...Those who play the latest and greatest games most of the day could as much be called professional gamers and, no matter which platform, require professional level computers. They're computer can normally do things like DV and 3D better than the rest of the block but they still only use them for gaming.
The iMac is just fine for those who play Doom 3, Quake 3, etc when they have a few minutes or hours in a day when they're bored, whatever, and won't trade their first born for the utmost highest quality settings to run at 60+ fps.
MacCheetah3
Apple PowerBook G4 Titanium 1GHz, 1GB, 60GB, SuperDrive, Airport, Mac OS X, 20GB iPod (4G)
Debug Computer Services http://www.click2debug.com

[Praxis]

Not at all. A 2 GHz P4 with a powerful enough graphics card can run Doom 3 at high quality pretty well. You don't need a dual processor machine to play the latest and greatest games. You only need the powerful graphics card, and a good processor (besides, games don't use the second processor).
But the only Mac that allows you to get a graphics card bigger than an FX 5200 Ultra is a dual processor PowerMac, and the dual processor goes to waste in this kind of thing.
On the other hand, an iMac with a Radeon 9800XT or even 9600XT will run great on the latest games on max quality.

[enb141]

Agree and also you have to remember that now days Video Cards need to be upgraded as sooner as possible, you can keep your processor for two or three years but if you play games you need to change your video card every one or two years so my point is that Video Cards need to be upgraded faster than processors, in my list of upgrades are:
1) Hard Drive
2) System Memory
3) Video Card

[MacCheetah3]

Hi

In reply to:

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ou don't need a dual processor machine to play the latest and greatest games. You only need the powerful graphics card, and a good processor (besides, games don't use the second processor).

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Agreed.

In reply to:

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But the only Mac that allows you to get a graphics card bigger than an FX 5200 Ultra is a dual processor PowerMac, and the dual processor goes to waste in this kind of thing.

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There are still some 1.8GHz SP Power Macs in some far corners of the universe. It just takes a bit of research and maybe time. But we won't argue this.
MP doesn't completely go to waste as the game has one whole processor while any, even little, background tasks can use the other. But it isn't worth a MP price tag, I agree.

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A 2 GHz P4 with a powerful enough graphics card can run Doom 3 at high quality pretty well.

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I can't really agree with this. While the GPU is a large part of the gaming equation, there is still a lot of processing for the CPU to complete before it sends it off the the GPU. Something has to feed it. The only example I could quickly find is this benchmark. This is only Halo. Plus, these benchmarks are using a 3.2GHz P4, 1GB DDR400, and a nice mobo. Look at the 9800XT performance at 1280x1024 or even 1600x1200. You can tell me that you could play Doom III at high quality with a P4 2.0GHz and a 9600XT?

One last time. The iMac is great for those who play games on and off and won't go jumping off the nearest bridge if it doesn't look perfect. For those of you who do, you're going to need a high end system no matter what.

MacCheetah3
Apple PowerBook G4 Titanium 1GHz, 1GB, 60GB, SuperDrive, Airport, Mac OS X, 20GB iPod (4G)
Debug Computer Services http://www.click2debug.com

[Ronaldinho]

Hey, I agree that the one feature missing on this iMac is an upgradeable graphics card.
But I think it's a pretty damn good machine. I am curious how well it'll play Doom3 when it comes out.

[aliasfox]

Praxis said:

In reply to:

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Are you kidding? A $500 PC + a $200 graphics card (Geforce 6600GT perhaps?) can OWN almost all modern games on high quality.

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I just built up the $418 system at iBuyPower.com. Of course, that $418 system didn't come with a DVD drive (sometimes needed for program installation), basic works suite, screen, or even an operating system. After adding those in (and boosting RAM to 512 MB), it comes in at $879. Oh, and it still has a GeForce 5200 (non-Ultra) with 128 megs of RAM. For gaming, it is a rough match to the combo drive eMac running with 512 MB RAM. That is to say, Each machine will most likely run anything you throw at it, but neither will run anything modern with any alacrity.
Oh, and in case you're talking about those $500 complete systems that Gateway or Dell seem to offer every week as an "awesome deal." Good luck finding an AGP slot in those machines to put that $200 graphics card- you'll probably be stuck with PCI, as the AGP bus is used for their awesome Intel Integrated Extreme Graphics. And good luck pumping any speed out of the Celerons those machines come with- even at 2.6 GHz, they're still a joke to the entire PC community.