[pdrayton]

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And I should think this commonplace distinction would be obvious enough to any thinking person.

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Jeff, you've likened this thread to "coffee house banter". If I was in a coffee house with you and you said that elitist statement to me I'd toss my coffee at you!

[jmincey]

Well, if the shoe fits...
"If I was in a coffee house with you and you said that elitist statement to me I'd toss my coffee at you!"
But not at the person who says this?

What a bunch of ninis! ....Saying that your mother is underwhelming because we know what she produced is more to the point. Personally I am not saying that because I am too polite to say it out loud.
[/list]Let me suggest that between the two, (i.e. my comment and the comment of this particular individual), it is the latter which is much more intemperate.

[jmincey]

Does anyone know if Tiger will at long last include version 2.x of Apache?

[Albertr]

"Personally I am not saying that because I am too polite to say it out loud."
I suppose this poster thinks he is being clever.
As I have said before, one can rightly speak about the known features and capabilities of a product even without test driving it directly. One cannot speak about how well these features and capabilities perform until having had direct experience with the product. THIS is the difference
Anyone buying anything because someone read something about it and said this is good or this is bad by definition is weird and never does that unless that person is a fundamentalist of some sort. Mektub (It is written) as enough and sufficient as a proof. Or the often repeated The Bible says it, I believe it. No wonder we have so much problems because schools arent teaching critical thinking.
I still think there is more ground to say that your mother is underwhelming because she produced someone not capable of critical thinking than saying that Tiger is. You are so hell bent into attacking Tiger that you cant even wait to try it before spouting your venom against it.
Personally from experience every time Apple produces a new operating system it is better than the previous one. It has never been the case in my experience to be otherwise. That is not to say I regard Apple as always perfect. The new iMac for me falls way short of my expectations because Apple abandoned a beneficial feature for the sake of style and hoopla. The adjustable screen in every viewing direction of the flat screen iMac is an unparalleled, wondrous achievement. Dropping it for unnecessary hoopla makes me sad. Ill keep my flat screen iMac as long as I can fix any problem as a result.

[jmincey]

In reply to:

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I still think there is more ground to say that your mother is underwhelming because she produced someone not capable of critical thinking than saying that Tiger is. You are so hell bent into attacking Tiger that you cant even wait to try it before spouting your venom against it.

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And I still think you lack the creativity of mind to express your points without resorting to insults. Let's not have this devolve into the personal realm, okay? Fair enough? If you take issue with my positions in this thread, feel free. This is what discussion forums are for. Make your case and illustrate where my position falls short. If I lack the facility for critical thinking as you say, then doing so should be quite easy (I should think). And yet the fact that you resort instead to personal insults is very telling.
Moreover, you have a propensity to speak in extremes. You characterize this thread as my "attack" on Tiger and my comments you describe as "venom." I beg to differ. Criticism is one thing; venom is another. In this very thread I acknowledge that Tiger has a lot to recommend it and it looks most promising indeed. The only question I raise is whether it is enough to qualify as a significant upgrade or whether it measures up against the marketing hype which Apple is spinning.
Apple says this release is the most significant one since the beginning of the Macintosh itself. I think even many people who take issue with me in this thread might agree that this statement is hyperbolic in the extreme. Tiger, as impressive as it is, is not more significant than the initial switch from OS 9 to BSD UNIX. I think we need to pause and get a perspective on this release.
As for the question of critical thinking, I fail to see why praising Tiger is ipso facto an example of it while criticizing Tiger is not. Be honest with yourself. If I had written a gushy post in which I cited all the promising features of Tiger and how I looked forward to it, you would not have taken me to task for a failure first to methodically use the product before offering public comment. You would not have spoken ill of my mother nor suggested that I lacked the ability of critical thinking.
Even the people in these forums who often disagree with me on the issues will I think support me at least in this regard -- that I'm one who does possess the faculty of critical reason -- even if it leads me to conclusions with which they differ. But in your case, the equation is much more simple:

Someone agrees with me: he is a critical thinker.
Someone disagrees with me: he is not a critical thinker.
[/list]"Personally from experience every time Apple produces a new operating system it is better than the previous one."
I agree. I have never said anything in this thread to the contrary.

[macnuke]

you replied to me, so i shall answer a bit.
but please don't confuse me with Jeff.. he may take that as a slur to his good name /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
yes, I have ordered Tiger.. yes, i look forward to the usual surprises that come with each new OS.
some are great.. some are just good.. and some are disapointing.
this has been the case with each of my OS purchases since OS7.
I applaude Jeff for his reasoning, whether I agree with it or not.
He has generated a most spirited and lively discussion.
and THAT is what these boards are for.
as you impiled that i said your mother was underwhelming ( I didn't ), well, to that I say.. it wasn't me that replied to the wrong person. in the future, please address your slurs to the proper person.
and while your G4 flat screen iMac is an outstanding piece of art AND a great Mac..
I prefer the G5 iMac.. for it's elegant simplicity and power. the available viewing angle negates the need for the swivel.. but that's just my opinion.. and for my use.. its what counts. just as yours does in yours.

In reply to:

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As I have said before, one can rightly speak about the known features and capabilities of a product even without test driving it directly. One cannot speak about how well these features and capabilities perform until having had direct experience with the product. THIS is the difference

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I haven't jumped off a tall building without parachute either..
yet I would say with my medical knowledge, what the landing would be like and feel confident in my statement.
m /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[d00d]

Ok, I think it's time we all stopped talking about each other personally. It's starting to get a little out of hand.

[d00d]

This says yes. I couldn't verify.

[jmincey]

Thanks, Derik. I overlooked that thread. As you say, there is no corroboration and no definitive answer; so we will just have to wait and see. Of course, we can always manually download these tools from sourceforge or other site, but it's good to have them bundled where possible.

[Dan Frakes]

jesman0, others have responded to some of your "requested features"; here are a couple more responses:

In reply to:

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I'd like to cut and paste files via contextual menus and keyboard commands, not just copy them.

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http://www.naratt.com/MoveItemsX.html

In reply to:

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I want better image previews. Gasp, kinda like windows XP preview. where you open one image in a folder and you can advance to the next via a button onthe bottom of the window. In OSX I have to hilight all images then open them in lame preview.

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Let's just say, "You'll like Tiger." /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jesman0]

I hope so. I read everything they had to say about Tiger but did not see the specifics i mentioned. I do have it preordered and am eagerly anticipating it.
I have to say the Dejamenu is pretty sweet. Aside from the few minor bugs, it fits nicely into my workflow.
thanks for the link to MoveItemsX, I'll give that a whirl a bit later.
Anyone know anything about the new speech app? I use the current one now a good bit. But alas, it does get slow after a few hours of use and eventually must be reset. Usually it either just disapears or freezes at which point i have to kill the process and restart it. Anyone else have this problem?
It really kicks ass though, restarts aside, it works really well when it does and i like it.
/forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[MacGizmo]

Without going into a lot of detail, I'll just say that Tiger probably SHOULD be underwhelming - as should any other OS release. The fact is that you USE applications a lot more than you USE an OS. I don't spend all day in the Finder, I spend all day in Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator, Acrobat, Web Browser, Email, etc...
What the OS is there for is to make using applications better, and in that respect, I think Tiger will be a hit... eventually!
I think sometimes we expect the OS to "change" everything and make it all new. In reality, the OS simply makes "change" possible for developers to impliment.

[pdrayton]

In reply to:

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Let me suggest that between the two, (i.e. my comment and the comment of this particular individual), it is the latter which is much more intemperate.

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Your prose is far more erudite. Thus, it has an impact out of proportion to what mere mortals can utter. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Besides, the person who said the other comment had a big box of coffee from Dunkin Donuts poured on him. Forgot to tell you that.
AND... back to the OS and Tiger. I think the post above that Tiger should be underwhelming is an interesting take on the whole subject. Can an application be only as strong as the OS on which it is installed?

[Dr-NiKoN]

In reply to:

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Without going into a lot of detail, I'll just say that Tiger probably SHOULD be underwhelming

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It really shouldn't.
First of all, Apple's OS updates are not only pure OS updates. Apple usually update a lot(if not all) of the bundled apps.
Secondly, the operating system is an integral part of your computing -experience, -workflow and -usage.

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The fact is that you USE applications a lot more than you USE an OS

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Sure, but don't you notice a difference between using Photoshop on Windows and Mac OS?

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I think sometimes we expect the OS to "change" everything and make it all new. In reality, the OS simply makes "change" possible for developers to impliment.

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Yes and no.
An OS upgrade will never change everything, and expecting that is just stupid. A totally new OS, like OS 9 to OS X or DOS to NT might change everything, but a regular upgrade shouldn't.
But, an OS upgrade should in some ways make things better for the users.
Spotlight in Finder, Automator, full SyncML support in iSync, new Mail.app, QuickTime 7, Dashboard etc.
These are some of the upgrades on the app-level that users can directly benefit from. I don't see why these and the others upgrades should be underwhelming?