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Apple trims the price of Cinema Displays

#29 User is offline   seano1 Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 03:51 PM

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However still expensive for LCD Montiors..
The Samsung SyncMaster 225BW Widescreen LCD Monitor features: ultra-wide 9:5 aspect ratio and 1680 x 1050 resolution, Fast 5 ms response time, 700:1 contrast ratio and 160-degree viewing angles. $222 for 22" widescreen.
Dell 20"
E207WFP 20-inch Widescreen Flat Panel LCD w/ DVI $259.
Are Apple LCDs that much better?
Just a curiosity


You didn't pick the best examples. The Dell equivalent to the 20" Cinema Display is probably the UltraSharp 2007WFP which is $100 dollars more then the E207WFP at $360 right now. That still a lot less then the Cinema Display.
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#30 User is offline   mdawson Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 04:03 PM

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At this point, though, I don't think the limitations of the Apple displays are worth their high price - for color critical work.

The Cinema Displays are some of the best monitors on the market for color critical work as far as LCDs go, so what limitations are you referring to?
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For me personally I will likely never have an Apple, as it is missing a key component for me - there have to be two inputs on the display and they never do.

Two inputs for what? LCD displays are strictly digital devices and computer displays can only be used with one source at a time. Therefore, anything more than a single DVI port on a LCD display is extraneous.
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At the end of the day, it's about color accuracy (which is influenced by the ambient light, the display(s), video card(s), system (profile) settings, and application software settings.

And not a single post in this thread has contested that. Yet, you seem to desire to overlook the fact that most inexpensive displays will not calibrate well under any circumstances and as moosensquirrel clearly pointed out, those displays that are not in the price range of the Cinema Displays, which are far from the most expensive pro-level displays on the market, are not even in the same class as the Cinema Display.
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Better to invest in very good displays and excellent calibrating and profiling tools than blow your wad on a nice display, because it is the easiest one to choose.

Any display used by a professional is going to need to be calibrated and the reality of the situation is that it is better to get a display that is good out of the box and tweak its settings rather than wasting an exorbitant amount of time trying to calibrate a sub-par display to pro-level performance.
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And I can say I get more calls from people with Apple displays with on-screen color issues than any other brand - because most people just pay the premium price, then call me to fix the problems they experience.

hayesk pretty much covered this one. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif JK
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#31 User is offline   MacKayaker Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 04:55 PM

Well - I explained why I require two inputs. Most professional displays, CRT or LCD have two or more, so Apple is the one missing the boat on this one.
Secondly - if we are going to be accurate, Apple and many LCD displays cannot be calibrated. They can be profiled and need to be, as one of the critical steps to accurate color. That said, the best CRTs and some LCDs can be calibrated and profiled and one always gets the best results when that is possible.
Finally - I never suggested good profiling makes up for a sub-standard display. I haven't in any post pointed to a brand and would concur that most of the brands and models that have been mentioned as less expensive alternatives shouldn't be considered for the person who is doing color critical work.
People seem to me more preoccupied with being right than aiming to be objective about the displays in question. One post cited a two-year old review of the Apple display and the reviewer made a number of foolish declarations about the display that were just plain wrong. They are great displays - I have not once said they weren't. I have questioned their value and made it clear that lacking support for multiple inputs means they can't serve my purposes and I recognize very few have that requirement, so it's a non-issue for most everyone else.
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#32 User is offline   dansterpower Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 04:56 PM

Apple Beats Dell for High End Graphics Arts Print Production market. Last I checked, some Apple users still worked in this market.
Folks in this industry understand the science behind why an ACD is a better choice over a Dell Ultrasharp, even with calibration on the Dell. I would never put one of my artists in front of a Dell -- even a calibrated one -- Why? Because the Dell has too many monitor adjustments to color, brightness, etc. Laugh at this all you want and call me fool, BUT educate yourself before you do -- if one touches ANY of the Dell's monitor controls after a monitor calibration/colorsync profile, then the Calibrated monitor is basically useless. And this is just the first reason. The more finely tuned LUT's and SWOP certification are numbers two and three. All calibration not-withstanding.
The key in color matching, which is a science, is to let the COLORSYNC ICC PROFILE interact with the Video Card, the Operating System, the Software, and Proof and Offset/Digital Printers (and on initial input a scanner, digital camera, etc).
Again, this is just speaking to the print production market.
For Video the Dell is a better choice.
Want to learn more? Below are a few excerpts from Dr. Karl Lang -- the architect of the Sony Artisan, the Radius PressView, ColorMatch, ProSense and many other products. He worked with display technology both CRT and LCD for the last 15 years.
". . .As an example the fact that Apple's display has no controls other than
backlight is actually a very good thing for an 8-8-8 LCD if your going
to use calibration. Apple optimizes the factory LUTs so as to provide
the most individual colors. smooth greyscale and the least loss. Then
the calibration is done in the graphic card LUT. As these are all 8 bit
it's best if the user does not mess with the display LUTs at all.
Overall Lab to Lab Delta E of 23 patches is a very poor metric to
evaluate a display. It completely leaves out many areas of color space
(the tool they used is designed to make the colorimeter look good so
tuff patches are not included) contrast ratio, stability, aging,
greyscale performance and other important considerations."
And this is just the beginning of color science: I have not even begun to really get into it.
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#33 User is offline   MacKayaker Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 05:16 PM

But you have missed the point that your quote is many years old and likely doesn't even apply to Apple's current line of displays (which are far better than the predecessors). I think at least one person gives this quote every time this discussion comes up, failing to recognize when it was given and regarding what generation of Apple displays.
The second key thing is that ALL displays degrade over time - all of them. Every work group is different, but displays need to be re-calibrated (if they have support for it) and re-profiled on a regular basis. Apple's lack of controls means that in essence only data can be tweaked to address the natural degrading of the display, as it ages. Whereas most higher end displays have ways to tweak the display electronics and the really high end ones (more expensive than Apple) have even more tweakable options. Options, that when used with a colorimeter and good software do yield a very reliable and predictable result.
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#34 User is offline   moose_n_squirrel Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 06:13 PM

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Apple's lack of controls means that in essence only data can be tweaked to address the natural degrading of the display, as it ages. Whereas most higher end displays have ways to tweak the display electronics and the really high end ones (more expensive than Apple) have even more tweakable options. Options, that when used with a colorimeter and good software do yield a very reliable and predictable result.


I'm curious, what else can you tweak on a high-end LCD? I thought LCD brightness and color balance came down to one thing, the backlight, and any other calibration changes can only be done through a lookup table, which means you might as well cut it down to one step and do it all in the profiler, which means the monitor only needs one control, which is brightness? What are the other adjustments on the high end models?
Or are you talking about CRTs, which actually have 3 guns to adjust?
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#35 User is offline   dansterpower Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 07:07 PM

That is just wrong.
The electronics can still be tweaked through Colorsync.
Try it for yourself. It works. Then one uses a colorimeter to measure display colors, builds a profile and bingo, you got it.
Display controls only mean some entry-level artist is going to fiddle and mess things up: we just had this happen on a 40 page, full color, case-bound picture book this week. When we discovered that an artist had messed with the high end NEC -- we recalibrated, reprofiled, and guess what? WE discovered a 6 pixel tall and 100% horizontal scanner defect from the service bureau that did the scans.
I disagree with you on the monitor controls. It is better to change the data from the video card to the monitor via colorsync.
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#36 User is offline   moose_n_squirrel Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 07:18 PM

No need to say "just wrong" or "disagree," this was not a matter of opinion. I wanted to know because I didn't know and was curious, as I said. I merely repeated what I had read and wanted to know if you knew better.
I think I see what you mean now. You're not talking about front panel controls (as I was), you're talking about extended control of the hardware through the software as opposed to profiling. That helps clear it up.
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#37 User is offline   Bloobie Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 07:21 PM

Actually, the 225BW has a 16:10 aspect ratio. The 23" Apple display is significantly brighter (400 cd/m2 vs. 280 cd/m2) than the Samsung 22" 225BW, with a smaller pixel pitch and 2 USB 2.0 and 2 FW400 ports built-in.
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#38 User is offline   dansterpower Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 10:22 PM

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No need to say "just wrong" or "disagree," this was not a matter of opinion. I wanted to know because I didn't know and was curious, as I said. I merely repeated what I had read and wanted to know if you knew better.
I think I see what you mean now. You're not talking about front panel controls (as I was), you're talking about extended control of the hardware through the software as opposed to profiling. That helps clear it up.


I am sorry for my harsh choice of words. You are right. I will try to temper my posts. I am still in this game to learn and do so every day -- so very good points brought up here regarding use of on screen controls to calibrate the monitor prior to profiling. Well said.
Dante
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#39 User is offline   MacKayaker Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 11:07 PM

Respectfully, I'm getting weary of the discussion. Suffice it to say I've been working with color management (CM) and color managed work flows for some ten years and most of the reactionary replies to my post make it clear people don't really know or understand a lot of what they are talking about. That's harsh for me to say, but that is how I see it.
So let me be clear about a couple of things. Most people regularly use the terms calibrate and profile as if they are the same thing and/or are interchangeable - they are not and they are very different processes with very different purposes. When I speak of monitor controls, I am not talking about only good CRTs. Early LCDs that had few controls and more often than not they were problematic at best - but the more problematic issue was that people dealt with LCDs as though they were CRTs - they are completely different beasts and have to be approached, from a CM perspective completely differently. In the last couple of years, though, I have seen higher quality LCDs gaining more controls that do work more like controls on CRTs have traditionally worked - making it possible to calibrate and profile some LCDs - all with the use of good software and a colorimeter. There are plenty of well-meaning knot-heads around who will tweak monitor settings based on their eyes and think they are doing themselves a favor - but that's been happening for closer to fifteen years or more. Had some merit in controlled ways fifteen years back - it has little now. CM has come a long way and I'm glad for it.
And for the record - calibration is about tweaking a display so that it not only hits a given target, but does so as spectrally neutral as the display is capable of (like tweaking the guns/gain/bias/etc. on a CRT. That is to say, just because someone chooses 6500 or D65 as a temp for a given display doesn't mean it is neutral (neutral as in equal parts of red, green, and blue when viewing neutral grays) - none are out of the box that I have worked with, so the natural result of that is neutral grays aren't displayed as neutral, but instead have a color cast - which of course can be dealt with in a profile - but it's far better to start with a neutral display, then profile it to capture it's idiosyncrasies in the profile, so Photoshop, etc. can work through that profile to give us something as accurate as possible. I'll take a display I can calibrate and profile any day over one that I can only profile. The truth is I'm still using CRTs for my color critical work, but I expect to have to replace them within a year or two. Thankfully LCDs have come a long way over the last few years and they are far better than they were five years ago, but they still have some intrinsic liabilities because most of them are first and foremost not designed for color critical print work. They certainly can be used for it, but you have to know what you are doing and be mindful of their weaknesses - even as we had to be with CRTs.
Without question, Apple displays tend to be a cut above many of the displays, but like all displays, work best with the benefit of accurate profiling, otherwise they tend to be too bright and too warm. I've seen this in nearly every one I've ever worked with, whether it was one of the first 15" models or the newest 30". And even with profiling they still tend to show shadow detail that won't be reflected in printed products. If people know how to properly soft-proof, then that, too, can be overcome and they can give excellent results. My problem, apparently, is that I had the gall to suggest there are less expensive displays that can do an equal or better job . . . and I still stand by that.
Cheers!
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#40 User is offline   tmedia1 Icon

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 11:27 PM

Dell 30 inch monitor is STILL $300 less and has identical LCD specs and has a better stand and cord option. Save your money...
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#41 User is offline   dansterpower Icon

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:09 AM

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Dell 30 inch monitor is STILL $300 less and has identical LCD specs and has a better stand and cord option. Save your money...


If you do high end Print Graphics work where color match is critical you are WASTING your money going with a Dell.
Apple's are superior for this application. No contest.
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#42 User is offline   dansterpower Icon

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:14 AM

Colorsync can perform most of the critical calibration of LCD monitors -- this is superior to adjusting these variables on an LCD monitor itself.
And yes, I UNDERSTAND this is different than profiling -- my 18 years of color work gives the experience to make this claim.
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