[BigFatDuck]

hi, i'm trying to find a new way to manage my ipod now that my library has grown way beyond it's capacity and i'm adding new songs fairly regularly.
i'm looking for a way to copy playlists from the ipod to itunes (not the actual files, just the playlist!). ideally i'd like to somehow create a playlist in itunes of everything on the ipod so that i can manually manage what's there in itunes and just sync ipod with that from now on, but i also want to move the current playlists over. any help would be greatly appreciated.
i can't stress this enough: the music is already on my home computer so i'm not trying to copy music files, just playlists.

[mdawson]

You cannot work opposite of how the iTunes-iPod symbiosis is designed to function. iTunes controls the contents of an iPod and not the converse, so the iPods playlists are the same as those of iTunes on the computer to which the iPod was last synced. What you want to do is create playlists in iTunes containing the music you wish to have on your iPod. Then the next time you connect your iPod to your Mac you need to set up the preferences so that it only syncs to those playlists instead of your entire music library.

[BigFatDuck]

right, i've been using itunes + ipod for years. i've been manually managing what's on my ipod through itunes and i've gotten to a point where, for the most part, i am satisfied with what's on my ipod. however, i've grown tired of searching my ipod for what i want to delete in order to add something new and having to have my ipod handy and plugged in while i do it. so, i want to quickly create a playlist in itunes listing what is already on the ipod so i can manually manage and sync that.
i know there are 3rd party utilities, plugins, applescripts, etc. that allow you to copy from the ipod to itunes, but most of them copy the actual files. i'm SURE there's something to allow copy of just the playlist and i'm hoping someone here can point to it without me having to spend hours and hours trying different apps and such to find what someone has already found.

[mdawson]

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i know there are 3rd party utilities, plugins, applescripts, etc. that allow you to copy from the ipod to itunes, but most of them copy the actual files. i'm SURE there's something to allow copy of just the playlist and i'm hoping someone here can point to it without me having to spend hours and hours trying different apps and such to find what someone has already found.

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Correct, there are scripts and utilities that will allow you to recover music from an iPod, but unless I am not understanding what you mean by playlist, there should not be a need to have a special way to retrieve what already exists in your iTunes library. As I stated earlier, the playlists on your iPod are from iTunes, as you cannot have a playlist on an iPod that is not from the library to which the iPod is synced unless said playlist is deleted after syncing.
What is seems that you want to do is set up a smart playlist that contains only the playlists that you sync to your iPod. For instance, using my playlist structure as a reference, my 60 GB iPod contains all of the checked music from my iTunes library; about 16 GB of a 62+ GB library or just those songs that have been sorted into playlists. For my iPod Shuffle, which is only used for the gym, only high energy music from my collection is synced. If you expand the Dance folder on the link I cited, you will see that there is a subfolder, a smart playlist and three standard playlists. For exercising I only want Club and House music on my Shuffle so the Clubbin smart playlist contains the contents of the Club and House playlists. By default, the Clubbin smart playlist is a TOC for my iPod Shuffle unless I add or remove music to one or both of the standard playlists after the last sync; at which point the iPod Shuffle will be updated when it again connected to the computer.
The same effect described above can also be achieved with a folder, but a folder has the advantage, or disadvantage depending on your point of view, of not being copied to an iPod. Thus, if you create a folder called BigFatDucks iPod containing the playlists that are synced to your iPod, that folder will not appear as a playlist on your iPod when you are using it. On the other hand, Party Shuffle in iTunes does see folders as playlists so you could play music from what is effectively your iPods library in iTunes just as if it were possible to play music directly from an iPod linked to the computer. Folders simply contain music from what ever folders or playlists you place into them, but when creating smart playlists, you have several options in terms of the criteria for populating a smart playlist.
Hopefully, the above is a hint in the right direction for what you want.

[BigFatDuck]

i appreciate your tips on managing large libraries and organizing playlists, but i think you are misunderstanding the point.
i will walk you through the scenario: imagine you have a brand new (empty) ipod and you plug it in. your existing itunes library is well in excess of the 30gigs of capacity your ipod has, so you have manually gone through and selected choice albums and playlists from the itunes library. you now have a completely full ipod. now, over time, you have selected the ipod in the source list and created playlists on there- not in itunes- specifically for use with your ipod (for instance i have a playlist called "work" which i only use at work and therefore figured i had no need for it at home). you stated you cannot have a playlist on the ipod which is not from itunes, which is just false.
the problem now is you keep getting new music and are deciding that it's probably a better idea to sync with a playlist that you are able to update on the computer anytime without having ipod connected- but you have 30 gigs of songs on your ipod! how on earth are you going to construct the playlists (nested) in itunes to reflect what's already on the ipod as a starting point (like i said i'm happy for the most part with what i've thus far selected to be on my ipod). i have made a playlist on my ipod containing every song on the ipod (extremely simple), now i just need to copy that playlist to my itunes library (you can export playlists from itunes but not from ipod- stupid?!?!?). this would also be useful in transferring playlists which have accidentally been deleted but remain on the ipod, on-the-go playlists, or simply sharing playlists with friends (if you share similar libraries) without illegally copying songs.
i've found a program that will do it- called ipod.itunes (www.crispsofties.com):
"To iTunes: Playlists- iPod.iTunes transfers missing playlists/playlist entries to iTunes. Note that in this mode a playlist entry is only created if the proper song is already in the iTunes library."
but it's $40! i'm betting there is something cheaper and i'm betting someone else has already gone through the trouble to find it.
hopefully you understand at this point what i mean by "copy a playlist from the ipod to itunes", and maybe someone can help me out.

[mdawson]

Thanks for the walkthrough, as it better describes what you want. I have looked into several things via iTunes, iTunes Help and Apple support to address some of your points.

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you stated you cannot have a playlist on the ipod which is not from itunes, which is just false.

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The only way to create a playlist on an iPod separate of iTunes that I know of is to create an On-The-Go Playlist, which can only contain songs that are already on your iPod. According to Apple, you can save your on-the-go playlist into iTunes, but unless you go through the trouble of adding 30 gigs of songs into your iPods on-the-go playlist, you would simply be adding a playlist to iTunes that is a subset of what your iPod contains. From what I can see on Apples site, only one such playlist can be created per iPod; the exception is the old click wheel iPod.

I just attempted to create a playlist on my iPod through iTunes and it is not possible, at least not by the usual methods. When I add a playlist even with the iPod selected in the source list, the new playlist appears under the Library heading (e.g., in iTunes and not on the iPod). I also tried dragging the new playlist to the iPod, just as would be done with folders, to no avail. I searched iTunes help and found no information about adding playlists specifically to iPods beyond the brief mention of on-the-go playlists; searching Apple support also resulted in no such information. If you have indeed found a way to do this, please post the procedure, as there are perhaps others that may like to create such iPod-specific playlists.

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the problem now is you keep getting new music and are deciding that it's probably a better idea to sync with a playlist that you are able to update on the computer anytime without having ipod connected- but you have 30 gigs of songs on your ipod! how on earth are you going to construct the playlists (nested) in itunes to reflect what's already on the ipod as a starting point

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Very easily. If your iPod is manually synced to specific playlists or even your entire library, which includes all off your playlists, then it is extremely simple to create a smart playlist of those select playlists and thus a playlist containing what you have put on your iPod just as I described previously in my iPod Shuffle example. There is probably even a means by which you can set up said same playlist to not exceed the capacity of your iPod by playing with the criteria settings. As smart playlist content cannot be directly edited, you would need to add/remove songs within the standard playlists; the smart playlist will automatically update based on what is in the playlists it is built upon.

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i have made a playlist on my ipod containing every song on the ipod (extremely simple), now i just need to copy that playlist to my itunes library (you can export playlists from itunes but not from ipod- stupid?!?!?).

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Well, if you are referring to an on-the-go playlist, the procedure for saving it into iTunes is described in the first link above from Apples support site. And no, your request is hardly stupid, nor did I suggest that it was.

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this would also be useful in transferring playlists which have accidentally been deleted but remain on the ipod, on-the-go playlists, or simply sharing playlists with friends (if you share similar libraries) without illegally copying songs.

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A quick fix for recovering your library structure should the unthinkable happen is to backup iTunes support files. Save copies of your iTunes Library and iTunes Music Library.xml files every so often. Both files are located in ~/Music/iTunes. Even for large libraries, those two files are relatively small and can easily fit on a spare flash drive; 64 to 128 MB should be more than enough space. Should your iTunes library become corrupted, as long as your music files are intact, or backed up and recovered, you can replace the corrupted support files with your backups. There may even by scripts for such library maintenance here.
On-the-go playlists can be transferred as described in the links above. As to sharing playlists, I have never used the feature, but iTunes allows you to export playlists. If I remember the procedure correctly, you just select the playlist in the Source menu, go to File > Export, then export the playlist as an XML file. The XML file can then be imported into other iTunes libraries and the new playlist should work correctly as long as the alternate library contains the correct music. iTunes creates and updates an XML copy of your entire music library automatically: the iTunes Music Library.xml file in your iTunes folder.

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i've found a program that will do it- called ipod.itunes but it's $40! i'm betting there is something cheaper

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Looking at what iPod.iTunes does, there are definitely free workarounds unless someone desires to pay the $40 convenience fee. I have provided some alternatives in this thread and you can probably find a script to do just about anything you want in iTunes at Dougs AppleScripts for iTunes to which I linked the playlist management page above.

[BigFatDuck]

i'm not sure what to tell you at this point. i can definitely create a playlist directly on my ipod (without it being first added to the playlists in itunes) by selecting "music" under my ipod in the source list and hitting the plus sign at the bottom left of itunes. this creates a playlist directly on my ipod. i'm thinking it's not letting you because you have your ipod set to automatically sync specific playlists as opposed to "manually manage songs and playlists". because this is how i've created most of the playlists on my ipod i can't follow your instructions on how to use a smart playlist to recreate my ipod library as a playlist in itunes.
unfortunately it seems apple has put some restriction (technical reasons or not) on on-the-go playlists which prevent me from creating an on-the-go consisting of my entire ipod library (believe me, i've tried). also, i realize itunes has the feature to export playlists (as i mentioned), which is why it's frustrating to see that option lacking from the ipod source (much like you can't use cover-flow for your ipod when connected to itunes). this is what i meant when i said "supid?!?!?!".
i've spent hours on doug's itunes applescripts and can't find what i need which is why i'm here.
an interesting note about apple's "save on-the-go playlist" feature (taken directly from their help section:
"Syncing On-The-Go playlists from your iPod (Click Wheel) to iTunes
..You choose to manually sync your iPod
iTunes does not save On-The-Go playlists from your iPod as new iTunes playlists. You can't see the On-The-Go playlists on your iPod in the Source list and iTunes doesn't sync them for you. If you want, you can create a new playlist with the same songs in iTunes, then sync it to your iPod."
it's funny because i "choose to manually sync my ipod" and yet, on-the-go playlists DO show up on my ipod in the source list and yet it WON'T sync it to itunes or allow me to copy it manually. make up your mind apple.

[mdawson]

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i can definitely create a playlist directly on my ipod (without it being first added to the playlists in itunes) by selecting "music" under my ipod in the source list and hitting the plus sign at the bottom left of itunes. this creates a playlist directly on my ipod. i'm thinking it's not letting you because you have your ipod set to automatically sync specific playlists as opposed to "manually manage songs and playlists". because this is how i've created most of the playlists on my ipod i can't follow your instructions on how to use a smart playlist to recreate my ipod library as a playlist in itunes.

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I changed my settings to Manually manage music and it does indeed work. I have no need to create playlists directly on my iPod, but it is a neat feature nonetheless. I was even able to create a smart playlist on the iPod. What I could not do, and hence your conundrum, was pull the smart playlist into iTunes source menu.

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unfortunately it seems apple has put some restriction (technical reasons or not) on on-the-go playlists which prevent me from creating an on-the-go consisting of my entire ipod library (believe me, i've tried).

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Part of that may be because the on-the-go playlist is intended to be a quick fix for when you are away from your computer as the iPod was not designed to be a music manager. In fact, based on what I could find, on-the-go playlists were more flexible in early (click wheel) iPods than it is now.

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i realize itunes has the feature to export playlists (as i mentioned), which is why it's frustrating to see that option lacking from the ipod source

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Again, this may be because the iPod is not a music manager so much as a pre-programmed portable jukebox.

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(much like you can't use cover-flow for your ipod when connected to itunes). this is what i meant when i said "supid?!?!?!".

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The inability to use CoverFlow was perhaps a wise decision on Apples part. Like any database software, iTunes accesses information from the hard drive often including the cover art for CoverFlow. I know this because on my Power Mac G5 with SATA drives, CoverFlow is smooth almost all of the time. On the other hand, on the Gateway PC in my lab, it often takes a second or two for the images to be found and updated as one navigates through CoverFlow; the same occurs when I use my external drive that has my full music library from the Mac.
Beyond the syncing process, an iPod generally does not operate through iTunes. Given that and the fact that CoverFlow is disk-intensive, I can understand why Apple would not enable CoverFlow browsing of the iPod. The last point as well as a number of other points that have come up in this thread are leading me to ascertain what may ultimately be going on here.
Given that there is no documentation either in iTunes or on Apples support site it would seem that you have come across what is probably at best an incidental feature or, in the worst case, an unsupported feature of iTunes. In the previous case the ability to add playlists to an iPod independent of the iTunes source list may be a side effect of the way the source list operates in general combined with the manual management of the iPod. As I stated earlier, iPods are not music managers and a quirk like this could be something that Apple may not even be aware of. That is, if it was not purposely designed into iTunes and never brought to Apples attentionI have read several articles on iTunes over the years and cannot recall ever seeing so much as a mention of creating and managing playlists directly on an iPodthen the development team would never have cause to look into a feature that they did not (outright) design.
If Apple is aware of the feature, then the utter lack of documentation on iPod playlists would indicate to me that it is either 1) an unsupported feature or 2) a new feature to iTunes 7 for which several new features have yet to be documented at least in iTunes Help. Given that there is also no documentation on Apples support site and that you have probably been creating playlists on your iPod long before iTunes 7, the first point is more likely.
Based on everything that has been put on the table at this point, I would come to the conclusion that Apple fully intended all playlist management to be handled strictly in iTunes and not on iPods. Thus, playlists on your iPod would exist in iTunes and need to be managed as suggested previously. Given what is posted on Apples support site, even on-the-go playlist functionality has been pulled back and you found out that you cannot import from that (supported) iPod playlist. Unfortunately, this is what my friends would call a no Vaseline situation for you, because you discovered and became dependent on a feature that Apple has not documented and, at this point, does not seem to fully support if at all.
The direct to iPod playlist feature may be why iPod.iTunes was developed, but given what I read on their site, it seems to be just another recover your library from your iPod utility. The advantage of iPod.iTunes over others is that it also recovers playlists from an iPod whereas most other such utilities only recover music. This really sucks, and I am stumped at this point beyond you going back and starting again from scratch by managing your playlists in iTunes and then exporting them to the iPod through syncing. Hence, what I stated about not being able to use CoverFlow on playlists listed under your iPod as they should, by iTunes intended design, just be copies of what the user created in iTunes source list.
The engineer in me is not willing to give up on you though, so I will continue to investigate though I have pretty much exhausted all avenues at this point. Your situation just does not sit right with me and having a large library myself I would not wish having to start organizing from scratch on you. Hopefully, someone else has dealt with this issue and has some answers, but I can honestly say that in years of heavy board participation/browsing and daily tech news reading, I do not recall anyone else ever discussing the use of playlists in the way that you are doing with your iPod, which is why I am strongly leaning toward this being an unsupported feature.

[BigFatDuck]

i appreciate your help thus far

[Philmco]

I can help you with this one. I have an 80 gig ipod and a 110G and growing music library. Create a playlist called, "Master iPod." You can name it whatever you want, but this should contain all the contents of your ipod. I put a Z. in front of it so it would go to the bottom of the list so I wouldn't have to look at it all the time. Next, create a smart playlist called "Not on iPod" and match it to the rule: Playlist is not Master iPod. (or Z.Master iPod) This new playlist will live update itself with every addition to your library that isn't on your ipod.
I also created duplicate playlists of every playlist on my iPod (also with Z's to both send them to the bottom and so I could distinguish my iPod playlist from my iTunes playlist). This worked, but got really aggravating because I had so many effin extra playlists!! I ended up drinking the cool aid and just used sync selected playlist feature on the ipod.
I hate having to do it this way, but until the 160 Gig flash memory ipod comes out, I just make sure that I keep as much of my current favorites loaded as I can.
I don't use the on the go feature so can't help with that part.

[BigFatDuck]

thanks for the tips, but that still requires rebuilding a "master ipod" playlist from scratch instead of what i'm looking for, which is a way to automate the process of creating a playlist in itunes consisting of all the songs contained on my ipod. guess i'll have to fork out $40 for ipod.itunes

[smax013]

You might take a look at the "Mirror iPod Playlists in iTunes" script on the following website and see if it will do what you want it to do:
iTunes Scripts
If not, look at the other scripts and see if there is one that might work.

[mdawson]

It looks like the script smax013 found may be what you need, BigFatDuck.