[Jim Galbraith]

Bryan said:

The Psystar looks like a much better deal, all things considered, than any available Mac. If they can install the OS now (albeit with some workarounds), they'll be able to install it later too. People will just wait for the latest "crack" as opposed to updating as soon as Apple releases it.

The real upside compared to a Mini or an iMac is the ability to upgrade the components. This alone would make it a better value for me, even at twice the price.

Well, as i found out, if you want to upgrade the components in an Open Computer, you'll be on your own. Something as seemingly simple as using the system's built-in graphics rather than the graphics on the add-on Nvidia card was too complicated for Psystar tech support to assist me with.

[Grapho]

Bryan said:

The Psystar looks like a much better deal, all things considered, than any available Mac. If they can install the OS now (albeit with some workarounds), they'll be able to install it later too. People will just wait for the latest "crack" as opposed to updating as soon as Apple releases it.

The real upside compared to a Mini or an iMac is the ability to upgrade the components. This alone would make it a better value for me, even at twice the price.

Much better deal? OS X is not your run of the mill operating system. You simply can not pickup any video card you like and plug it in like you can with Windows. So what other components are you talking about upgrading too, and to do what exactly?

Go then and get your Psystar, it will be a historical rear relic in time. Do you really think for one second that Apple is simply going to condone this at the expense of their brand and reputation? Not to mention, market share?!

[George76]

Grapho said:

Nothing killer on the iLife suite? Then you follow your assumption with "the only one I use is iTunes", well there you have it, you don't use it, so you think it has no value?

Funny that something I don't use has no value to me. Looking around my family, I can't imagine any of them would ever fire up Garage Band. There might be one or two who would attempt to make use of iWeb, iMovie or iDVD once in a while. iPhoto is the program that would probably be the most used by them (outside of iTunes). Waiting hours for iMovie to import even the shortest movie turned me off to the program. iDVD was extremely limited in what it would allow you to do.

Quote

I could say the same thing about Microsoft Office, yet some depend a lot on it, even thou I don't use it much particularly, and it's of little value to me. Actually iLife has a lot more value to me then Office, but I am not going to write Office off just because I use it very little.

And Office would have value to me. I'd much prefer a copy of iWork on a Mac than iLife, as I'd use Numbers and Pages on a regular basis. Who knows, it's possible the majority of Mac users would be better served with iWork instead of iLife. iLife just seems to be competing with all the throwaway apps that come preloaded on a PC (and people here like to complain about) and I'm not really convinced iLife apps really rise that far above the throwaway level.

[Grapho]

I am not sure how many employees Apple currently has on their payroll, I know that Apple has had pretty good marks as far as customer service and resolving peoples issues for some time now. Why give all the support up in exchange of a small, inexperienced mediocre Psystar team.

I know that even with my MacPro, I can't simply go to Fry's electronics and pick up the latest and greatest video card and simply plug it in. So how can this be expected from Psystar?

Nope, I am sticking with Apple.

[Grapho]

[quote name='George76']
>

Grapho said:

> Nothing killer on the iLife suite? Then you follow your assumption with "the only one I use is iTunes", well there you have it, you don't use it, so you think it has no value?

Funny that something I don't use has no value to me. Looking around my family, I can't imagine any of them would ever fire up Garage Band. There might be one or two who would attempt to make use of iWeb, iMovie or iDVD once in a while. iPhoto is the program that would probably be the most used by them (outside of iTunes). Waiting hours for iMovie to import even the shortest movie turned me off to the program. iDVD was extremely limited in what it would allow you to do.

> I could say the same thing about Microsoft Office, yet some depend a lot on it, even thou I don't use it much particularly, and it's of little value to me. Actually iLife has a lot more value to me then Office, but I am not going to write Office off just because I use it very little.

And Office would have value to me. I'd much prefer a copy of iWork on a Mac than iLife, as I'd use Numbers and Pages on a regular basis. Who knows, it's possible the majority of Mac users would be better served with iWork instead of iLife. iLife just seems to be competing with all the throwaway apps that come preloaded on a PC (and people here like to complain about) and I'm not really convinced iLife apps really rise that far above the throwaway level.

Well as opposed to you, I do use iMovie, iPhoto (now a lot more with my Apple TV), iDVD, and even Garage Band. The only component I don't use is iWeb since I am a web developer.

You do have a point, maybe Apple ought to through in iWorks, but the price is still pretty accessible even if you need to buy it on your own.

My point is that iLife dose indeed have value for a large number of users. All you are saying is that you and your family are not the creative types. In contrast me and my brothers, how also happen to use Macs, do get a lot of milage from iLife. Even my wife that is probably the least artistic person I know loves iPhoto big time. Her family, who are finally getting it to using Macs are thrilled by iLife and it was one of the major switching points.

Have you messed around with Garage Band at all? Its fun, even for the musically challenged, like my self.

[wgood]

So now that it's tested, can we start a new "Will it Crush?" YouTube phenomenon?

[Grapho]

I think you mean, will it "blend".

[Wondercow]

No, I'm pretty sure he means crush. It's in reference to the Will it Blend series, but he wants to crush it, hence the use of the phrase "new phenomenon."

[Grapho]

I guess I need to catch up with my YouTube. :)

[robco]

I still love the "I don't see..." yes, that's true, each of us is different. I don't see why Bluetooth is such a big deal. I sync my cell phone a couple times a year and that's it. I never use the built-in iSight (which the Mac Pros don't have either). My PC is connected to a wired network, I have no use for WiFi on a desktop - I love it on my MacBook. I rarely use iLife, and only iPhoto at that. I guess I'm not a real Mac user. We all are different and use our machines for different things. The Wintel platform, for all its faults, is very adaptable. The Mac... not so much. There's either a Mac that fits your needs or there isn't.

I'm glad to see the gaming stats improved at least, and if they got a PC card working, that's a good sign. That's one area where the iMac is severly lacking. I don't see how Apple can tout environmentalism when they only make non-upgradeable, non-modular, throwaway computers for consumers. The entire machine must be tossed out (recycled?) when it's time to upgrade. Yikes. There are those of us who don't want to buy a new machine to upgrade the graphics, put in a Blu-Ray drive, etc. (and don't want messy external peripherals all over the place, ruining the aesthetic behind the iMac in the first place).

As for EULAs, how many folks here can claim they've never violated a EULA? How many have actually read the darn things? They're so convoluted, you've probably violated at least one without knowing it. It's not as if Apple doesn't offer OS X for retail sale - they are being compensated. There is also the case that installing OS X, even on a non-Apple machine is fair use.

There are upside and downsides to every platform. The upside to Apple's limited offerings is great support and stability. But the downside is that it keeps OS X limited to a niche market - the market for whom Apple's hardware is sufficient.

[Podesta]

I do not think that Psystar will just continue merrily along its way. Considering the different kinds of fraud involved, there could be federal action ahead, including seizure of stock from their facility and inquiries into their credit card processing and sales in interstate commerce. Based on what I have read, I am expecting a 'naive young fellows' defense based on the Pedraza's ages. They will claim not to know that there is anything legally wrong with what they are doing. (Right!) Even though review sites are getting units, very few regular customers seem to have taken delivery of Psystar computers. This could still turn out to be a pyramid scheme. One heavily promoted by the Mac blogosphere.

Furthermore, I find it puzzling that some people simultaneously claim to approve of Apple products and to want to destroy the company by supporting the likes of Psystar. Cognitive dissonance, indeed.

[Barneski]

It's been interesting to see the vehemence of some of the anti-Psystar posts here. I cannot fathom why anyone would care that another company - big, small or whatever - is producing or selling equipment capable of running a particular OS. It's fine if your preference is for the Apple computer and for the company's supposedly fantastic support. You love them, so feel free to buy Apple. But why would you care that someone ELSE buys a PC from a different company to run the Mac OS?


My take on it as an owner of a couple of old Mac models and purchaser of several Mac OS's dating back to System 7 is that I owe the company nothing and the company owes me nothing. I don't care if they condone what I do or how I use their OS. I last bought a Mac around 8 years ago, and it is probably the last Mac I ever will buy. I don't think they're particularly bad computers (except for games, obviously), but I've put together PCs of my own. There's no support, but I've never needed it. The next computer I build, still a year or two away, is going to run Mac OS as well as Windows, regardless of whether Apple is happy with this arrangement. I don't need them to be.

As far as Apple hardware goes, I'm really not bothered either way about it. Some of it looks nice, I suppose. Not nice enough to justify the higher price tag, though, and I'm more interested in seeing that cost and performance bear some relation to each other. Not always easy with a Mac. I dislike being overcharged for completely ordinary hardware that I know is a mishmash of components manufactured by other companies - the CPU, motherboards, drives etc. Just like any Wintel PC. I've got no interest at all in minis or in all-in-one PCs, any more than I like boomboxes, VCR TVs, midi hi-fi systems, or B&O gear. They all share the same essential weaknesses: form over function and a lack of flexibility - which you're especially going to notice when the monitor blows on your iMac and you have to send the whole thing in for repair or get a new computer.

What I do like from Apple is the Mac OS. I know it can run on non-Apple hardware, and so my next PC is going to run OSX. Meanwhile, concerning Psystar's foray into the market, the questions that come to mind are these (I think they'll be important if another company comes along to do this, and does it better):

Some claim it's illegal. In that case, what law is being broken? I don't see any piracy issues, copyright issues, or breach of contract issues. Does anyone see otherwise, and if so, how?

What legal standing does the OSX EULA actually have? (For an answer, you might need to take it country by country).

When you buy a Mac computer or a Mac OS, at which point did the EULA (removing your right to run the OS on a non-Apple PC) come into effect? At the point of purchase? When you opened the box at home? When someone - possibly you, then again, possibly not - clicked an "I Agree" button on the screen?

I admit I haven't paid close attention, but so far, I've seen nothing in the way of an official comment from Apple concerning Psystar. It's been nearly a month. Have they really said nothing in public about this? Is that responsible?

And what must be the most important question: Apple previously allowed clones to be sold. They set a precedent for the Mac OS to run on non-Apple machines. And they now sell Apple computers that can run both OSX and Windows, and have made this a selling point. So how are they going to persuade a moderately intelligent judge that their OS is so special that it may only be allowed to run on their hardware, AND that their computers are so special that no other computer should be permitted to run OSX? They've had it both ways in the marketplace already.

[Podesta]

Well, I think it is generally true that thieves see nothing wrong with their thefts. However, their selfishness does not make them right. It just shows they are blinded by their avarice.

[palane]

Robco – you
make some interesting points. Regarding the use of WiFi for a desktop, the
phone jack for the DSL modem (or cable jack) isn’t always in the same room as
the office. In my house, the only phone jack is upstairs in our master bedroom.
So, linking up a dekstop to the net means either running a long phone card
between rooms or doing it via WiFi.

“I don't see how Apple can tout environmentalism when they only make
non-upgradeable, non-modular, throwaway computers for consumers. The entire
machine must be tossed out (recycled?) when it's time to upgrade. Yikes.”

Macs hold their resale value quite well. There are usually sufficient
improvements in the base hardware (bus speed; WiFi moving from B to G to N),
that the cost of a massive upgrade of an older computer isn’t worth the trouble.
It’s good value to sell the older computer and buy a new one. Plus, you get all
the software updated as part of the deal.

“As for EULAs, how many folks here can claim they've never violated a EULA?
How many have actually read the darn things? They're so convoluted, you've
probably violated at least one without knowing it. It's not as if Apple doesn't
offer OS X for retail sale - they are being compensated. There is also the case
that installing OS X, even on a non-Apple machine is fair use.”

I think “Don’t install this on a non-Apple computer” is fairly clear. With
regards to your second point, Apple doesn’t make enough money selling retail
copies of OS X to pay for the development. That’s the clone model. It was tried
and it failed.

BB