[MackyMoto]

I'm a long time Apple user, since the Apple II. One thing I've learned is NEVER to adopt a new OS until dot 3. I pre-ordered Leopard and everyday I look at the box, it's reflective X in the holographic universe has been tempting me. I wait patiently for dot 3. Dot 3 came and the reports were so bad... I'm now holding out for dot 4.
I cheer Apple's decision to concentrate on stability. I just question why they haven't put more emphasis on that all along.

[MrChristopherSEA]

.3 has been working ok for me.

My menu bars still get confused but it does seem to happen less. For me overall stability is pretty good. It's mostly the weird things that happen like applications that randomly won't hide. I've had this happen with InDesign and also Modo. You go to hide and nothing happens. Then a while later it hides and then won't come back. Nothing you can do makes it come back. You have to force quite the app.

I have a feeling that Apple changed a lot under the hood to make 'Spaces' work. In the process it sort of broke some things.

Hopefully .4 will resolve some of these issues.

[wikki]

The only problems I have had are that Time Machine does not work and my Documents folder keeps opening up when I boot up my Macbook. I did have a problem where I could not log in as my Mac would freeze up while booting. Tech support could not help. I could not even reinstall. I used my experience with Windows XP and solved the problem my self. Other then that I have had no re-occuring problems.

[johnnymac47]

Keychain fix
Go to /library/keychain/
Delete login.keychain
You'll have to enter passwords into keychain again, but the problem will not recur. This happens when you change your password with another user or outside authentication system, like Active Directory. That said, it is a bug.

[Biallystock]

Thank you Dan for raising this.

As you carry a great deal of respect you didn't get automatically shot down in flames for finding things are less than perfect.

Mind you perhaps you may still be outed as the first Troll planted right into the heart of Macworld! :)

I am seriously thinking of summarising this entire thread, adding my own observations and putting it into a feedback to Apple. It certainly will be an excellent To Do list for Snow Leopard.

Speaking of which I note that more than one poster has claimed that now that Snow Leopard has been announced all of this is irrelevant. How they reach that conclusion I don't know, unless it is just knee jerk defensiveness. We have no way of knowing what Snow Leopard will fix and it is certainly no fix at all till it ships. Which is still some time away.

...and I am sure that once Snow Leopard does ship we will be having this conversation all over again.

To cap it all from what they have announced of Snow Leopard, it sounds a lot like Leopard 10.5.11.

Only they are going to charge us for it.

[MrChristopherSEA]

I have a feeling it's not lost on Apple that maybe they over-extended themselves a bit on 10.5 promises. I remember seeing the presentations Steve Jobs did and thought, oh how cool. But then I wondered about how well his reality distortion field was going to parlay down into reality.

I think many of us get frustrated at a lot of these 'small things' that happen because they interrupt work flow quite a bit at times (having to force quit rogue apps that won't show for instance). I would MUCH rather see few features introduced that also happen to work well than lots of wizzy features that aren't quite ready for prime-time.

[whitedog]

OS X has always been a bit quirky about application window order. It just seems worse in Leopard because applications tend to "stick" and sometimes you can neither switch away from them nor force quit them. Occasionally they will unstick if you wait them out, but this result is not reliable. If you can't get away from the app, the only solution is a hard restart.

One partial solution is the haxie ASM (Application Switcher Menu). It can restore a facsimile of the old OS 9 application menu. In addition, it can return the OS 9 window behavior (Classic Window Mode) wherein when you switch to an application, all of its windows come forward in front of other applications. You can even set it to show only the frontmost application and its windows (Single Application Mode) as you could in OS 9. You can enable these functions and not show the ASM menu bar icon - I prefer to use the Application Switcher from the keyboard rather than mousing to the menu bar. Fifteen dollars may be a small price to pay to get your windows working "right." ASM was one of the first haxies for OS X and has been updated regularly. It has a seven day demo mode so you try before you buy, in the best tradition of shareware.

By the way, I have no financial interest in ASM nor any connection to the developer. It's just that there have been so many complaints on this blog about how Leopard handles windows that I thought it worth mentioning that a solution is available - while you're waiting for Apple to fix the problem. ;-)

[whitedog]

{quote}Who knows. I wonder what "bug features" will come with Snow Leopard?{quote}

I hope we don't have to wait for Snow Leopard to get all these problems fixed, whether they are bugs or merely UI and functional shortcomings. By the time Snow Leopard comes out we should be up to OS X 10.5.9 or better. We can only hope the iPhone and the new Leopard don't siphon off all the engineering talent from OS X 5.x. I'm by no means confident Apple is not over extended.

For that reason I see all this public Sturm und Drang over Leopard's problems, both perceived and actual, to be quite useful. If we kick up enough dust, Apple will be more likely to apportion the resources necessary to get this half-baked cat up to speed.

[MackyMoto]

MrChristopherSEA said:

It's mostly the weird things that happen like applications that randomly won't hide. I've had this happen with InDesign and also Modo. You go to hide and nothing happens. Then a while later it hides and then won't come back. Nothing you can do makes it come back. You have to force quite the app.

That happens to me with the Adobe apps constantly, and I'm still using 10.4.11. All the other apps show and hide fine. The Adobe apps are a mess. The don't show and hide properly, they quit unexpectedly ALL THE TIME.

[dcolossus]

I did a erase and install of Leopard about a week ago. I was previously using 10.4.11. I was fully prepared to hate Leopard. It turns out I have no problems whatsoever and I actually like it a lot! A lot of people are complaining of slowdowns, but on the contrary, the finder feels snappier and apps are launching faster for me than they did in tiger.

[Pennywigeon]

"Nowhere do the official instructions warn that you should back up beforehand"
Backing up is mentioned twice in the READ BEFORE YOU INSTALL pdf. and mentioned more than once in the Install and Setup Guide.
:-P

They also discuss Archive and install and Erase and install.

I guess the question to ask is how many people read past the first page?
:-)

What is also mention in the READ BEFORE YOU INSTALL?
A little tidbit about address book and shared Home folders.
"Changes you make to your address book in one system are not available in the
other."
I guess this may be because of some form of formatting difference?

Also repair permissions is recommended by Apple after software updates as routine maintenance. Dan even knows this and has written about it.

The big problem that usually happens with OSes and consumers is this.


Most consumers have a slew of applications and a computer that usually has a little age. They have customized and updated, and tweaked their systems to their liking.

Now a NEW operating system comes out and the first thing they do is CLICK INSTALL.

Do they back up their system first? No.

Should they? Common sense says YES.

Have they made sure that ALL their third party software is compatible? Nope
Have they already downloaded or obtained updaters for their third party software? Nope.

Did they read ALL the instructions? lol NOPE.

Did they repair permissions after the installation? Nope.

Did they write down their network settings before installation like suggested? Nope

Should they have done these things before making the change from Tiger to Leopard?
uh yeah.


Instead they just installed a Major UPGRADE to an Operating system and the only preparation beforehand was opening the box the disk came in and ejecting the disk that was occupying their CD/DVD tray.

I have noticed though that people that actually read the PDF in its entirety (as instructed) and those that actually took installing an OS Upgrade a little more serious than playing Burning Monkey Solitare actually haven't had any of these ill reported "bugs".

These "bugs" reported are usually fall in one of two columns.

Column one is the GUI was changed and the consumer either doesn't under the change or doesn't like the change. SO they report it as a "bug" which is wrong.

Column two is the one where the consumer has a program (software) that is NOT compatible with the new OS and changes made to it. The program either causes crashes or odd behavior ot doesn't work at all. DOes the consumer contact the vendor for an updated copy?

Most times no. They instead claim the OS has a "bug" in it once again. It is "buggy"

Take the "bug" mentioned earlier when taking notes in Tiger in Address Book then dragged to desktop Then imported into the EARLIER VERSION of Address Book (Tiger) the notes disappear.

Now does it disappear if you take it from Leopard to Leopard? Nope. What does that fall under? Column two. Software updates and INCOMPATIBLITIES. Now it was done drag and drop. Now try it using the EXPORT feature.......


COmpanies could document everything under the Sun and it would not change much.

When people buy something that needs assembly do the read and follow the instructions exactly? Most times no.
Do people read the owner's manuals of new products they buy in its entirety before using? No.
Do they read all the install instructions on OS upgrades? Obviously not.

Simply put. A Vendor cannot prevent people from making poor decisions no matter how hard they try. People are still going to do things their way and they will be the first to blame their own negligence on "bugs".
It is human nature to point the finger.

Operator Headspace and Timing.

:-)

[Biallystock]

Pennywigeon said:

"Nowhere do the official instructions warn that you should back up beforehand"
Backing up is mentioned twice in the READ BEFORE YOU INSTALL pdf. and mentioned more than once in the Install and Setup Guide.
:-P

They also discuss Archive and install and Erase and install.

I guess the question to ask is how many people read past the first page?
:-)

What is also mention in the READ BEFORE YOU INSTALL?
A little tidbit about address book and shared Home folders.
"Changes you make to your address book in one system are not available in the
other."
I guess this may be because of some form of formatting difference?

Also repair permissions is recommended by Apple after software updates as routine maintenance. Dan even knows this and has written about it.

The big problem that usually happens with OSes and consumers is this.


Most consumers have a slew of applications and a computer that usually has a little age. They have customized and updated, and tweaked their systems to their liking.

Now a NEW operating system comes out and the first thing they do is CLICK INSTALL.

Do they back up their system first? No.

Should they? Common sense says YES.

Have they made sure that ALL their third party software is compatible? Nope
Have they already downloaded or obtained updaters for their third party software? Nope.

Did they read ALL the instructions? lol NOPE.

Did they repair permissions after the installation? Nope.

Did they write down their network settings before installation like suggested? Nope

Should they have done these things before making the change from Tiger to Leopard?
uh yeah.


Instead they just installed a Major UPGRADE to an Operating system and the only preparation beforehand was opening the box the disk came in and ejecting the disk that was occupying their CD/DVD tray.

I have noticed though that people that actually read the PDF in its entirety (as instructed) and those that actually took installing an OS Upgrade a little more serious than playing Burning Monkey Solitare actually haven't had any of these ill reported "bugs".

These "bugs" reported are usually fall in one of two columns.

Column one is the GUI was changed and the consumer either doesn't under the change or doesn't like the change. SO they report it as a "bug" which is wrong.

Column two is the one where the consumer has a program (software) that is NOT compatible with the new OS and changes made to it. The program either causes crashes or odd behavior ot doesn't work at all. DOes the consumer contact the vendor for an updated copy?

Most times no. They instead claim the OS has a "bug" in it once again. It is "buggy"

Take the "bug" mentioned earlier when taking notes in Tiger in Address Book then dragged to desktop Then imported into the EARLIER VERSION of Address Book (Tiger) the notes disappear.

Now does it disappear if you take it from Leopard to Leopard? Nope. What does that fall under? Column two. Software updates and INCOMPATIBLITIES. Now it was done drag and drop. Now try it using the EXPORT feature.......


COmpanies could document everything under the Sun and it would not change much.

When people buy something that needs assembly do the read and follow the instructions exactly? Most times no.
Do people read the owner's manuals of new products they buy in its entirety before using? No.
Do they read all the install instructions on OS upgrades? Obviously not.

Simply put. A Vendor cannot prevent people from making poor decisions no matter how hard they try. People are still going to do things their way and they will be the first to blame their own negligence on "bugs".
It is human nature to point the finger.

Operator Headspace and Timing.

:-)

You presume far too much.

I was extremely cautious about upgrading my iMac G5 2.0Ghz.

I did everything you said I said "No" to.

I even Carbon Copied my entire drive on an external FW drive, tested that the FW drive was bootable and mounted iMac from the Tiger system on that FW drive.

Then I clean installed Leopard onto the internal drive of the iMac.

After rebooting into the new Leopard installation it would not see anything attached to the FW nor would it let me restart off my original Tiger installer DVD.

Now Ms Pennywigeon, can you tell me exactly what it was I did wrong?

I'm sure it must be something. No way could it be due to something Apple did, or failed to do.

[MrChristopherSEA]

Thank you for that ASM tip. I have always just hated how windows are so independent in OS X. I've wanted the OS 9 window/application behavior back and didn't realize there was something like this available.

Thanks!

[MrChristopherSEA]

CS3 stability seems to be pretty good for me so far which is good. The hiding problem is probably my biggest annoyance. Luckily though InDesign has really good crash recovery, but I still save constantly just in case.