[Steve_S]

schiffer said:

Got any more Kool-Aid?

LOL! You registered an account just to post this? Do you have any other Pearls of Wisdom to share with the group? ;-)

[Steve_S]

Pennywigeon said:

Now SNow Leopard will LOOK the same (Same body style and interior) BUT it is getting a whole new ENGINE, SUSPENSION, SAFTEY FEATURES, TRANSMISSION, And will set the standard for future models based on that frame.

Yeah, but what about the cup holders? ;-) From the comments in this thread, it would seem pretty clear that "under the hood" improvements won't sell. It would appear that a significant demographic needs to see something shiny.

But, hey, what do I know. Apparently, agreeing with a decision made by Apple equates to drinking the Kool-aid. ;-)

[tallscot]

Quote

Service pack = bug fix

Service pack ≠ new feature

Windows service packs routinely include new features.

Heck, even Apple included Safari 3 in a service pack.

[tallscot]

I forgot to mention the no-brainer of adding more types of columns in List View - codec, dimensions, key words, etc. I think we still have the same columns we had in System 5. Anyone remember? ;)

[Albertr]

What I remember that was best in OS five is that it was free. Today Apple has joined Microsoft laying more eggs than can be consumed for a price. We supported Apple through hard times and now is the time to benefit by keeping a iMac G5 running Tiger doing everything I need with rarely a problem that can't be fixed. As long as this iMac does the job I do not need instant continuous backup, I use my beloved Super Duper producing a bootable back up that Leopard and probably Snow Leopard will not be able to do. The latest, the improved, the fastest, the advertise .... If you go for it look in the mirror. You will see a sucker!

[afterhours]

Aside from your insult, I have to agree with the sentiment. Tiger (and Panther) will do fine for most folks until the hardware gives out. Heck, I still have fully functional 7600s that run as DNS systems. Just because it is there doesn't mean it has to be used (we don't run out and buy a new car every year just because the new ones have better suspension. Many folks will hold on to a car until the repair bills cost more than a new one. From an economic standpoint, a 15 year old truck that gets 23 mpg is a better deal for the next 5 years than a brand new one that gets 33 mpg. Then again -- if someone drives a hummer -- they might fall into your insult category :)

If what you have now does the job, great. If we just want to speculate on what needs to happen for new (Intel) systems moving into the future, we have to insure that Leopard's kittens do not go the way of Vista. That means for those who do want better stability and functionality out of what Apple has in terms of current framework, then one needs to be willing to buy the $129 and the intel box to run it on. Apple has not historically offered 'upgrade' pricing. I think most of the X versions were $100-$129, without an upgrade price, at the retail level, no? And if so, and if stability is important, then those kinds of folks will buy it (and hopefully not whine). We need Apple to be proactive on recognizing that they need to make things as rock-solid as they can -- live up to the Unix hype. The fewer beachballs, the better. Make Safari run javascript well enough for banking websites to work. Make good on promises for ZFS, or stop promising that. Make better compatibility with external devices. Vista is a dog, but it will get better. Leopard's spawn need to be two steps ahead on that improvement curve.

Just because it is shiny doesn't make it better. Just because someone buys the latest doesn't make them a sucker.

[Albertr]

It is not an insult, just a perfect vernacular description of one who get's sucked in buying something he doesn't need. Your long verbiage agrees with me that as long as my iMac G5 with the last Tiger works great there is no need to ever upgrade. By the way I never have problem because of Java and banking, Safari works with most sites just a few and far in between. Just change bank since they are behind the time.

I still mourn the iMac G4 with the adjustable arm that Apple dropped because of "designers" supposed expert insight in what is good for us.

[Olu]

Calling someone a sucker is an insult. You are being arrogant by ignoring the common tone and use of the word.

I can't stand people who think that something that THEY think is not valuable isn't valuble to others. Personally I really don't like Wine and I'm not a huge audiophile. I
don't go around calling other's suckers because they purchased a $200
bottle of wine or a $10000 stereo system. That's their passion and I
respect that, as should you.

Just because YOU think that running an iMac G5 with Tiger is adequate, I would not. Hence all my macs are Intel Core 2 duo machines running Leopard and will probably run Snow Leopard if there are enough significant gains in multi-tasking and speed.

[Bruce8]

tallscot - good point about the info that is displayed in List view.

Original systems 5, 6, 7 etc I think pretty much listed very similar to what we see now in the Finder List view.
What we have today with Cmd-J is: Name (mandatory), Date Mod (dflt), Date Cre (op), Size (dflt), Kind (dflt), Ver (op), Comments (op), Label (op), plus option of showing date rel/non-rel, and calculate sizes of apps/folders or not.

I think that is pretty close to what was available in system 5, 6, 7. Maybe version number and size calculation is new, but rest is same.

It would be great to have ability to add other file criteria specs, at least as options on some folders. Kind of like the way that iTunes, email apps, disk catalog apps usually allow you to select other info criteria and metadata.
Yes, Apple, please add customizable Finder List View criteria to this next OS version. ;)

And the other thing about the 'old days' with Apple OS software was that, after some certain time period, Apple did allow previous versions to be distributed no-charge. That would be a great concept... say to allow reduced pricing (or free) of older versions. Say Jaguar to be distributed lowcost after Leopard came out (once it got to be third down the line...)
Course, in my book, Panther is really the OS X version that finally got most of the pieces together and working efficiently. just my opinion. This would be a great distinguisher from Microsoft, who still charges full price for older OS right up till the day they pull it off the shelves.

[Albertr]

"There's a sucker born every minute, a phrase often credited to American showman P.T. Barnum

P.T. Barnum knew, an American icon if ever there was one knew what he was talking about. Someone who is sucked in into buying something he doesn't need is born everyday. How many people do you know that had to buy Leopard because they could not live another day without it? How many people will buy Snow Leopard because they can't live without it even though they have been forewarned no new "features" meaning it does nothing more than Leopard does today. I do not read complaint from users of Tiger but there are endless cry from users of Leopard and they are still buying it in spite of all the complaints! One is born everyday! Steve Barnum is very good at sucking people in.
By the way if you wonder, I have been a Apple fanatic ever since the Apple II.

[Olu]

The latest diatribe doesn't erase the fact that you think people who purchased Leopard or Snow Leopard are 'suckers'. It's still arrogant to think no one will enjoy the benefits of Snow Leopard over Leopard OR Leopard over Tiger.
Let's put it this way. If Snow Leopard is 10% faster then Leopard, that could save someone several minutes per day. If this hypothetical person bills $100 per hour, they could make up the cost of Snow Leopard in less then a month. Are they a sucker? What if Snow Leopard is faster enough that it makes me happier using my computer. Is it not worth it?
The internet has a way of making heresay and complaints facts. I have Leopard and consider it significantly better then Tiger. This is not something I scream on Apple forums. Just because you've heard a ton of complaints about Leopard means nothing. Keep in mind that Leopard's marketshare is probably larger then Tigers and has a lot of new comers as well. This alone could account for all of these complaints.

My 1st Apple was also the Apple ][ plus (upgrade to 64k B-))

[Albertr]

Diatribe? I gave a well developed argument you are unable to counter except by calling me arrogant. I applaud you for finding excuses for buying something you can live without. I wish you to have none of the problems other users have with Leopard.

[Steve_S]

Albertr said:

How many people will buy Snow Leopard because they can't live without it even though they have been forewarned no new "features" meaning it does nothing more than Leopard does today.

Again, this goes back to the notion that some people don't understand the difference between an operating system and an operating system distribution. The OS is very much behind the scenes and under the hood. It's not something that should be noticed (directly). The eye candy and applications on top of the operating system are what the end user sees directly. Unfortunately for Apple, it is this layer that they must advertise in order to sell the product. Clearly, Snow Leopard will have new features (Grand Central, OpenCL, Active Sync?, etc.), the question is, how many will be directly visible to you, the end user?

What you seem to be missing is that when an OS is enhanced, some improvements may be seen immediately, while others will have to be exposed through third party products. Remember, there will be products that are enhanced for Snow Leopard. You'll apparently miss out on those. You'll also miss out on a bunch of applications that will eventually require Snow Leopard. But, I suppose everything works perfectly for you now, including third party applications, right?

>I do not read complaint from users of Tiger but there are endless cry from users of Leopard and they are still buying it in spite of all the complaints!

I'd challenge you to name an a new significant OS release that didn't have any issues of any kind. Does Leopard have any more issues than Tiger did? No? What about Panther? For that matter, why did you bother upgrading to Tiger? Didn't the G4 iMacs ship with Panther?

Regardless of whether upgrading to Leopard (or Snow Leopard) is right for you or not, you're not in a position to determine what's right for others. You're unaware of their needs or desires. If someone feels the need to upgrade and is satisfied with the upgrade, why does that make them a sucker? Someone is a sucker if they purchased a product under false assumptions, etc. and ultimately were misled. Can you demonstrate that's the case with anyone here? I upgraded to Leopard. I knew what to expect from the upgrade and I actually discovered a few nice surprises that weren't previously mentioned in a review. Further, I'm using the features I knew I was paying for. That makes me a satisfied customer.

Finally, unless I've missed something, I've yet to see a priced mentioned for Snow Leopard. Will you feel the same way if Snow Leopard is a free upgrade to existing Leopard users? What if it's a nominal fee to cover packaging and distribution?

[Olu]

I agree Diatribe may have been a strong word.

There are no winners in an argument about something that is purley subjective. I gave you 2 examples, one financial and one emotional that would account for upgrades to Leopard and possibly Snow Leopard. But you still don't get it. Just because YOU don't need or want Leopard / Snow Leopard doesn't mean the whole world has to agree with you. It also doesn't make people suckers because they get it. Most people who upgrade the OS on their computers are computer savy and are fully aware of what they're getting into and why.

Arrogance : "having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities"

The arrogance is that you still can't understand that individuals have
individual needs and that individuals can decide on their own what $129
is worth to them. I'm sure if I went through your finances, I could
find things that you've purchased that you didn't need, does that mean you were 'suckered'?

I've had no problems with Leopard on 4 machines....sorry.