[tallscot]

Seems like your definition of simple changes as we correct your inaccurate assumptions of how OS X behaves.

I'm confused about your latest method. You want people to press the Eject button on the DVD-ROM drive to eject a disc image?

[dougoftheabaci]

jarilehtinen said:

In my opinion any user interface should be so simple that it doesn't require any help, assuming user knows what a keyboard and a mouse is. But this would be in perfect world.

No, that is what we designers strive for. Unfortunately, as Douglas Adams was quite fond of pointing out, you should never underestimate the ability of people to be stupid. I'd say we'd honed it into a fine art.

The ideal result isn't that they need no explanation but that they enjoy the experience. Though, this usually is achieved by making things as simple and intuitive as possible and then providing concise documentation to augment any lack of knowledge on the part of the user. This is something Apple has done very, very well. The help topics are simple and to the point. And yes, that is all part of usability.

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Actually when we think about the current situation about the Eject-functionality, there's at least 3 ways of doing it when there could be only one and a really simple one: the button on the computer case. :) It's not because I prefer PC way of ejecting but just because people uses almost every day other appliances that have the actual eject-button. And yes, Windows has the right-click eject functionality too but that's totally unnecessary and could be removed completely (perhaps programmer had nothing better to do when he/she made that up).

Firstly, having one method to completing any task is never a good idea as it becomes extremely hard to make the entire OS follow a single usability convention. Having a select few, in this case menu, right-click and drag functionality, is varied enough to work in a large variety of situations without giving too much choice as to be confusing.

Remember, a UI designers job isn't to think about a single action but a string of tasks and then how those tasks mirror other tasks which a user is most likely to undertake. Mostly we consider what are common goals and then create a select number of ways to achieve them. That's what OS X has done and done rather well I'd say.

The problem with the icon idea is that I do not see how this functionality could easily be mirrored across the OS. It's the kind of action that becomes very specific to a single task. This makes it inherently more confusing in a number of ways for initial users. For a start it teaches them behaviours that are not duplicated elsewhere and only weakens the use of more common conventions. In some cases this can be necessary but in this case it really isn't as the more common conventions are just as simple and can be applied elsewhere.

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Yes and I was trying to end this off-topic talk before it got interesting, I apologize.

You were discussing aspects of Mac OS usability, you're safe. The root issue is just a subset of that larger issue, which is why I applied the current functionality under discussion to the overall context of Mac usability.

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But to get back to the original subject, the installation procedure should be always done in a way where the designer/programmer asks him of herself "what if a novice user saw this, what would he/she/it do?" Whether the final outcome is a drag'n'drop icon, explanative text next to the icons or something else.

Indeed this is something we can agree on. Personally I feel an extra set of prompts would be best but that's just me. However, as I already stated, at least with some applications you seem to get an alert warning you that you are launching it from a disk image and that it should really be installed first.

This is modification of an older convention but one I do actually welcome and think should be extended to elsewhere on the OS so to help new users. However, depending on the scope of these additions, an opt-out function would be welcome in my case.

[jarilehtinen]

> Seems like your definition of simple changes as we correct your inaccurate assumptions of how OS X behave.
[/quote]
Let's clear few things. I never did say that I had a better way of doing it, I'll let Apple do their job. I was only pointing out that there is something to be fixed if users can't understand how they can accomplish the desired action (whatever it is), or do you disagree? In my first comment I took another example to mention about other issues, that just happened to be the "famous" eject-by-dragging-to-trash method which has discussed several times. Yes, it has been improved but still the basic functionality is the same, eject by dragging the icon to trash" with the extra option of clicking eject icon in the Finder.
> I'm confused about your latest method. You want people to press the Eject button on the DVD-ROM drive to eject a disc image?
[/quote]
In the latest post I was talking about the CD/DVD not the disc image, the whole disc image ejecting thing is whole other case. If talking about the CD case, we take the Mac Mini (which is currently standing on my desk). Let's take a simple test case:

If I put a CD on the CD drive, use the CD for whatever I want and then want to eject it. I would assume that the CD comes out from the hole that I put it into, right? Would it be better to have the eject button near the hole with the eject icon in it to point out that this button does what you want, just like in your DVD player in your living room? Would it be the first place that the novice user searches for the button as he has learned by using other devices?
I realize now that there's a eject button in the keyboard but not until it was told here, so how many other users there are that aren't aware of it? I assumed that the only way CD or DVD can be ejected is the same way the disk images are unmounted (drag'n'drop), just because some Mac user told me this years ago...
Before you get too defensive: these are just my opinions, there are just as many opinions as there are users. Some newbie might think that it's clever to have the eject-button on the keyboard while other just can't figure how in the world he/she gets the CD out and would have never guessed that the needed thing was in the keyboard. Some user understands the drag'n'drop installation procedure at a glance while other can't just understand that he/she has to actually do something besides stare at the two icons and the arrow. I think that these particular features could have been done better, whatever the better way was.

[jarilehtinen]

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The ideal result isn't that they need no explanation but that they enjoy the experience. Though, this usually is achieved by making things as simple and intuitive as possible and then providing concise documentation to augment any lack of knowledge on the part of the user. This is something Apple has done very, very well. The help topics are simple and to the point. And yes, that is all part of usability.

I agree, even though there are user interfaces (and actions on them) that are somewhat unenjoyable at the very beginning, they are used to accomblish a relatively boring task but still designed in way that the user doesn't pull his hair off while doing it.

I've used to design simple web interfaces which are - of course - small comparing to what it takes to design a OS. I agree that Apple has done extremely well and OS X's usability is the best of all OS's, but as in any other OS's, there are room for improvement. And improvements require new versions which brings us new features, which brings us new problems. But Apple way of bringing new features brings a lot less problems with them than any other OS maker.

Just to mention one other "problem" are window switching keyboard shortcuts, which I wrote about in my blog. As you all know, alttab in Windows rotates between all windows and in OS X just the main application windows. And the particular application's windows are swapped using the relatively mad keyboard shortcut cmdshift+' which doesn't work in every app, which is the whole point. Just to be clear, switching application's windows is too hard, imho. Keyboard shortcuts aren't really concerning new users, just only more experienced users who wants to speed up things, so this is another case also.

[tallscot]

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Just to mention one other "problem" are window switching keyboard shortcuts, which I wrote about in my blog. As you all know, alt+tab in Windows rotates between all windows and in OS X just the main application windows.

No, ALT TAB doesn't rotate between all windows in Windows. MDI applications (all of the Adobe apps I have) cycle the application window with ALT TAB, just like CMND TAB in OS X. So you have to switch to the application first, then press a different shortcut to cycle through just the documents in that MDI application.

That's one of the things I detest about Windows ? two completely different behaviors with SDI and MDI.

If you want to cycle through all visible windows in OS X, press CNTRL F4 (this can be customized) in Keyboard & Mouse system preference.

If you want to cycle through the windows of the application you are in, you press CMND `, which can be customized in Keyboard & Mouse.

[tallscot]

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Let's clear few things. I never did say that I had a better way of doing it, I'll let Apple do their job.

So maybe there isn't a better way.

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Yes, it has been improved but still the basic functionality is the same, eject by dragging the icon to trash

No, you don't drag it to a trash can. That was the flaw with the original behavior. It makes people think they are deleting the disc image. The new behavior is that when you drag it, the trash turns into an Eject icon, so there isn't any confusion anymore.

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Would it be better to have the eject button near the hole with the eject icon in it to point out that this button does what you want, just like in your DVD player in your living room?

No, because you can't even see it from your sitting position.

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Would it be the first place that the novice user searches for the button as he has learned by using other devices?

Are you talking about the people who have never seen a computer keyboard with volume, pause/play, FF, RR, eject buttons in their life?

I've been teaching my 75-year old dad how to use a Mac over the last few months. Let me tell you something ? it would be horribly stupid to create an OS and a computing experience that tries to cater to newbies. You can't make it obvious enough. Enough said.

Some keyboards are designed for the newbs and they are huge because they have the specialty keys like "Mail" and "Web", etc., that are really big over on the side, etc.

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Before you get too defensive: these are just my opinions

No problem. I criticize Apple here all the time. I just call it as I see it myself. However, I want to make sure we are all consistent with your criticisms. ;)

[dougoftheabaci]

In terms of app switching via key-commands Mac has Windows beat by a mile.

For a start there's the normal command+tab which is the universal key-command, in any application to let you choose to display a menu that allows you to switch to any of the other open applications. You can navigate from left to right with arrows.

But that is the least impressive way. The best one is Expose which, depending on what you chose as the key command, is a one-button press that displays all windows, all windows for the currently open app and no windows. Normally, if memory serves, these are F9-F11 respectively but I have them as F1-3. One key allows you your choice of views.

Of course this ignores Spaces as well, which I don't use but can see how they would be extremely useful in certain situations.

[jarilehtinen]

Trash can suddenly turning into a eject icon is more like a temporary fix to the original problem and is a perfect example about doing something in a non-traditional way. No other icon in OS X turns into something else when performing a mouse gesture. But this is quite covered by now, the situation is better nowadays than it used to be.

I suppose keyboard shortcuts are different depending on the keyboard layout you have. As I use finnish/swedish keyboard layout, the window switch is cmdshift´ which is quite awful key combination. And yes, you could change them from System Preferences but my point was that the default shortcut is not universal like in Windows (alttab to browse windows in taskbar and ctrltab to change tabs in Firefox or documents in Photoshop). For example in Mail, why you can´t press ctrl + tab to browse mail application´s windows?

I´m currently logged in to my Mac via Logmein.com where my keyboard layout doesn´t work so I can´t check how you can change tabs in Safari, but it ain´t ctrl+tab

Ps. Thanks for your great replies, this has been enjoyable and a good change to learn new aspects about the whole UI design in OS X.

[ruprecht]

I think 'wow' covers this ... (both windows and mac computers can create 'wow' the same way I believe).

So many replies to replies.

Surely 'control' clicking on a disk image and using the 'move to trash' is perfectly intuitive, and more 'windows oriented'. It works, and for those who can't abide or understand the dragging to trash principal, it does the job.

Surely by now it's enough said?

R

[tallscot]

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Trash can suddenly turning into a eject icon is more like a temporary fix to the original problem

I disagree. The original problem was that you were, graphically, throwing away the disc image file by putting it in the trash can. You aren't doing that anymore.

If that was not the problem, what was it?

>perfect example about doing something in a non-traditional way

It's contextual. Contextual has been around for years. The menu bar has always been contextual, for example.

Expose isn't traditional either, yet it's a superior method for switching between documents within an application. If you are arguing that the traditional method of pressing ALT TAB 20 times to cycle through 20 windows is optimal, I disagree.

So I don't understand your position here. You were discussing a graphics user interface design where you drag a file to the trash to unmount it from the Desktop. When corrected that it's not a trash can anymore when you click on the file, but an Eject icon, you then complained about not having a physical Eject button. When told there was one right on your keyboard, you said that it's not easily found (it's right there on your keyboard). You then went on to complain that there is no universal way to get to all windows via keyboard shortcuts in OS X, like in Windows. You were then corrected about how Windows actually is the one with no way to get to all documents via a keyboard shortcut and OS X does indeed have a keyboard shortcut to do this. At that point, you complained about how the key combination itself isn't easy to use, even though you can customize it in OS X but you can't in Windows.

The keyboard shortcut for going to the next window in the application you are in is universal in OS X. The keyboard shortcut for going to the next window in all applications is universal in OS X.

It's not in Windows because it's ALT TAB for SDI windows and CNTRL TAB for MDI windows. In Windows, if I am in Internet Explorer and I want to go to a specific document window in Photoshop, I first press ALT TAB to get to Photoshop, I then press CNTRL TAB to get to document window. If I am in Photoshop and I want to get to a specific Internet Explorer window, I press ALT TAB only. Two behaviors depending on whether the application you are using is SDI or MDI.

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For example in Mail, why you can't press ctrl + tab to browse mail application's windows?

Why can't you press CMND V to copy in Windows? Because they have different keyboard shortcuts.

In Mail, if you press CMND `, you cycle through the visible windows in Mail. In any application, pressing CMND ` will cycle through the windows in that application.

>I'm currently logged in to my Mac via Logmein.com where my keyboard layout doesn't work so I can't check how you can change tabs in Safari, but it ain't ctrl+tab

No, it's not, and the keyboard shortcuts in Flash are different than Word.

Tabs are not windows. In OS X, there is a universal keyboard command for windows. There isn't in Windows.

If you want to switch between tabs in Safari, it's CMND SHIFT ARROW.

Tabs are not managed by the operating system's window management. They are managed by the developer of the software application, in Windows and in OS X. It is up to the software developer to create consistent keyboard shortcuts within the application itself on both platforms.

[Dan Frakes]

jarilehtinen said:

Actually when we think about the current situation about the Eject-functionality, there's at least 3 ways of doing it when there could be only one and a really simple one: the button on the computer case. :)

The problem here is one of consistency. A CD/DVD is a volume, just like a hard drive, a network volume, a flash/thumb drive, and a disk image. By using the same procedure for all types of volumes, the OS is easier to use. You may have to figure out how to eject something the very first time, but once you do, you know how to eject/unmount any volume. (Not to mention the mechanical and ergonomic issues of having to press a hardware button.)

(The "drag to the Trash can," which was the old way, was indeed a horrible interface decision. It's better in OS X, now that that the Trash can icon changes to an eject icon when dragging a volume, but I'm still not a fan, as it's kind of scary for new users, even with the icon change. I'm very glad there are now at least three other ways to do this: eject button in sidebar?the best approach for new users?select and choose File: Eject, or right-click and choose Eject.)

By the way, in OS X, CommandTab cycles through apps; Command` cycles through windows within an app ;) (If it doesn't, blame the developer.)

[tallscot]

>By the way, in OS X, CommandTab cycles through apps; Command` cycles through windows within an app ;) (If it doesn't, blame the developer.)

This is a global function of OS X. As long as it's a window (versus a palette or tab), it works.

[Dan Frakes]

tallscot said:

>By the way, in OS X, CommandTab cycles through apps; Command` cycles through windows within an app ;) (If it doesn't, blame the developer.)

This is a global function of OS X. As long as it's a window (versus a palette or tab), it works.

If my memory serves, it's automatic for Cocoa apps, but whether or not it works in Carbon apps depends on the developer. And, as you noted, if the developer implements windows in a non-standard way, it won't work there, either.

[tallscot]

[quote name='Dan Frakes']
>

tallscot said:

> >By the way, in OS X, CommandTab cycles through apps; Command` cycles through windows within an app ;) (If it doesn't, blame the developer.)
>
> This is a global function of OS X. As long as it's a window (versus a palette or tab), it works.

If my memory serves, it's automatic for Cocoa apps, but whether or not it works in Carbon apps depends on the developer. And, as you noted, if the developer implements windows in a non-standard way, it won't work there, either.

Nope. It's the same. If it's a window, it's a window. This is the reason Expose works with Carbon applications designed before Expose was even created.

Interface Builder with Window options.
http://developer.app...trols/hitb-windconttasks/chapter3section_2.html