[Biallystock]

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{quote:title=vulpine wrote:} I will admit that there are a number of people who want a "headless midi," but do you really think there's enough demand for it? After all, you'd still have to buy a new display for it unless you're coming off a PC and the higher-end Mini fills that gap, or at least part of it.{quote}

One way to find out. And that display could be the mid range non-glossy that Apple won't give us.

I love the way you phrase things.

The enormous growth in laptop sales is proof that Apple's customers want the glossy desktop iMac, despite desktop sales slumping in the last 2 years since the glossies came out.

FY'08 sales are "slightly" smaller than FY'06 but not "even more slightly" higher than FY'07.

Well my take is that desktop sales are dead flat because despite being Macs they are not exactly what users want . Like many other users I have bought a glossy iMac despite the glossy screen.

As a dumb idea this was only reinforced yesterday when I got a visit from a rep wanting to demonstrate his products on his glossy screened PC laptop. The beginning of the meeting we spent trying to turn it, unsuccessfully, to any angle where we could actually see the material unobscured by reflections.

I was almost tempted to drag him down the back of the studio to where we keep the glossy iMac, in with the mushrooms.

btw I recently bought a PC laptop that, for considerably less than the Mac mini, leaves it in the shade. Apple doesn't have to strip anything out of the Mac mini, what it needs to do is put it at a more realistic pricepoint. It is just too expensive for what it is and you have to be really blinkered to repeat the mantra that it is a good value entry machine.

What it is, is a stripped down Mac. Period.

Not "good", "value", nor a "entry machine" which would be one that was ready to use out of the box but had low end hardware, which Apple refuses to make.

As to Apple "getting it right", does anyone know if there is any other computer manufacturer out there which is selling one quarter less desktop units than it was 8 years ago in 2000?

[vulpine]

Biallystock said:

> {quote:title=vulpine wrote:} I will admit that there are a number of people who want a "headless midi," but do you really think there's enough demand for it? After all, you'd still have to buy a new display for it unless you're coming off a PC and the higher-end Mini fills that gap, or at least part of it.{quote}

One way to find out. And that display could be the mid range non-glossy that Apple won't give us.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'm expecting the next Mac mobile to have more glass, not less.

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I love the way you phrase things.

Why thank you.

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The enormous growth in laptop sales is proof that Apple's customers want the glossy desktop iMac, despite desktop sales slumping in the last 2 years since the glossies came out.

I hope you're not trying to say I said any of that. And I really think you need to actually look at the numbers in that chart.

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FY'08 sales are "slightly" smaller than FY'06 but not "even more slightly" higher than FY'07.

Let's see. By the chart:
*05: 2.52 Million desktops
*06: 2.869 Million desktops
*07: 2.714 Million desktops; almost 200,000 more than 05.
*08: 2.776 Million desktops; surpassing the 07 figures with another quarter to be calculated in yet. This shows at least a reasonable chance that 08's desktop sales will surpass the 06 figures.

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Well my take is that desktop sales are dead flat because despite being Macs they are not exactly what users want . Like many other users I have bought a glossy iMac despite the glossy screen.

You are allowed; but I believe you'll be proven wrong once the 4th quarter figures come in, and that won't be until October.

As a dumb idea this was only reinforced yesterday when I got a visit from a rep wanting to demonstrate his products on his glossy screened PC laptop. The beginning of the meeting we spent trying to turn it, unsuccessfully, to any angle where we could actually see the material unobscured by reflections.
What? too many bright lights and windows around you? With only a slight downward angle on my iMac, I get very few reflections in my brightly-sunlit office. But then, that's an environmental thing. I understand you don't like it, but that doesn't make it any less useful for those who do.

I was almost tempted to drag him down the back of the studio to where we keep the glossy iMac, in with the mushrooms.

btw I recently bought a PC laptop that, for considerably less than the Mac mini, leaves it in the shade. Apple doesn't have to strip anything out of the Mac mini, what it needs to do is put it at a more realistic pricepoint. It is just too expensive for what it is and you have to be really blinkered to repeat the mantra that it is a good value entry machine.
Which Mac Mini are you talking about? the $600 model or the $900 model? In my case, my G4 first-gen mini makes an excellent DVR now, after retiring it from primary machine when I bought my 24" iMac.

What it is, is a stripped down Mac. Period.
That's all it's supposed to be... just like the $300 PCs are stripped down machines barely able to function out of the box... but then, those don't have Bluetooth, Firewire, WiFi or much of anything else for that matter... not even software. At least the Mini comes with iLife installed.

Not "good", "value", nor a "entry machine" which would be one that was ready to use out of the box but had low end hardware, which Apple refuses to make.
Strange that you should say that, since the Mini is exactly that: ready to use out of the box. Just connect keyboard, mouse and monitor and you're ready to go.

As to Apple "getting it right", does anyone know if there is any other computer manufacturer out there which is selling one quarter less desktop units than it was 8 years ago in 2000?

Now that's a good question. Do you know if there is any other computer manufacturer out there which is selling 467% more laptops than they were 8 years ago in 2000?

[Biallystock]

Let's look at that chart. If you want to extrapolate from previous years into the grey Q4 are we going to take it from the explosive growth of the laptops and apportion it to the laptops or to the flat sales of the desktops?

The desktops of course.

Similarly shall we take short term trends or long term trends?

Should we consider demolishing our pleasantly open and normally lit office and rebuilding it to suit the viewing needs of glossy screens?

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Shall we consider the Mac mini ready to use out of the box, despite the lack of mouse, keyboard and display?

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Our car was drive-away without the steering wheel, dashboard or windscreen. All we had to do was add those and we were on the road!

The PC laptop does have a screen, keyboard and touchpad as well as WiFi and inbuilt camera (which the Mac mini does not), and the Vista equivalent of iLife.

Shall we pretend that Apple's policy of extremely competitive pricing and features in laptops which has lead to spectacular sales growth, is reflective of their manipulative marketing of desktops, which hasn't?

Perhaps or perhaps not, or maybe: perhaps not or perhaps, or maybe not: perhaps or perhaps not, or possibly, maybe: perhaps?

[moose_n_squirrel]

Biallystock said:

As to Apple "getting it right", does anyone know if there is any other computer manufacturer out there which is selling one quarter less desktop units than it was 8 years ago in 2000?

You know, that might not be as hard as you think. Apple is not going against the grain here, they are trying to be in front the trend. All the growth now is in laptops. They are what most people want. Desktops are flat or declining for PCs in general...even the PC companies with mid-range towers Apple is supposedly missing! (I'm not against the idea)

[indent]
Vendor Highlights
Dell enjoyed its strongest quarter in almost two years...growing strength in the portable market...strong portable growth in all major regions except Canada...
Lenovo...experienced stronger than expected growth in EMEA portables...
Toshiba continued to enjoy the overall transition to notebooks as the company saw its worldwide shipments top 3 million, a 20.6% improvement versus last year. The EMEA and A/P regions, in particular, featured stronger than expected growth as both consumers and businesses in those regions continued to allocate more of their purchase dollars to notebooks. [/indent]

Economy Hits U.S. PC Sales, but Notebook Growth Remains Strong
[indent]
In all markets, the growth came from laptop sales to the detriment of desktop sales. The PC market is changing from ?one PC per household to one PC per person,? said Bob O?Donnell, vice president of clients and displays at IDC...The crossover of laptops outselling desktops that has occurred in the United States will happen next year in the rest of the world, the firm predicted.[/indent]

This isn't what the companies are driving, it's what the customers are demanding.

[Biallystock]

If everybody wants laptops, isn't it up to Apple to lead the market and stop selling desktops?

Then they can lead the market to only sell Macbook Air with no hard drives, no mouse, permanently connected to the Net, but without a second battery.

Oh what the heck, let's completely jump the market and go straight to the iPhone.

[vulpine]

As usual you choose to put words in my mouth; not a very ethical debate method and one surely to get you despised in any conversation. However:

Biallystock said:

Let's look at that chart. If you want to extrapolate from previous years into the grey Q4 are we going to take it from the explosive growth of the laptops and apportion it to the laptops or to the flat sales of the desktops?

The desktops of course.

Black and White are not the only colors in the spectrum. Anybody with any sense of logic would realize that each would take a portion of that grey area in proportion to the bar below it. This implies an additional million desktops which would carry desktop sales well above the 2006 numbers. Even if were 20% less than that, the numbers would show 3.5 million desktops sold for 08 and the largest jump since 06. You might also care to note that this pattern echos that of the 00-06 to some extent.

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Similarly shall we take short term trends or long term trends?

It would appear that both short and long trends are clearly displayed in this chart.

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Should we consider demolishing our pleasantly open and normally lit office and rebuilding it to suit the viewing needs of glossy screens?

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Should we consider that you are bipolar and argue just to hear your head rattle? Perhaps. Perhaps not. We have agreed more than once that the glossy screen is not for everybody; you refuse to accept that it is appreciated by many.

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Shall we consider the Mac mini ready to use out of the box, despite the lack of mouse, keyboard and display?

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Much more so than the machine you buy at your local discount store that it is designed to replace. Since you already have keyboard, mouse and display, why should you pay to duplicate them and add to the world's trash problems?

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Our car was drive-away without the steering wheel, dashboard or windscreen. All we had to do was add those and we were on the road!

Ah, but did you already have those items in your garage at home? Unlikely. Of more accuracy I would ask if the house you bought already had appliances or did you bring them from the old home?

The PC laptop does have a screen, keyboard and touchpad as well as WiFi and inbuilt camera (which the Mac mini does not), and the Vista equivalent of iLife.

The Mini is not designed to compete with a laptop; Apple has many models of laptop to choose from. As such, the comparison is far from valid.

Shall we pretend that Apple's policy of extremely competitive pricing and features in laptops which has lead to spectacular sales growth, is reflective of their manipulative marketing of desktops, which hasn't?

No, since Apple's laptops are priced on a scale with their desktops. Just because you can buy a Dell or an HP laptop at $600, does Apple sell one? No. And Apple's computer sales are growing at a rate 6x their competitors despite that differential.
[quote]
Perhaps or perhaps not, or maybe: perhaps not or perhaps, or maybe not: perhaps or perhaps not, or possibly, maybe: perhaps?

[RadioC1ash]

Wow. That was stunning.

[Biallystock]

vulpine said:

We have agreed more than once that the glossy screen is not for everybody; you refuse to accept that it is appreciated by many.

Not true, yet another case of you putting words into my mouth. The real point is that you refuse to accept that it is not appreciated by many, many others don't care either way, but the choice has been removed by Apple.

It does not concern you because you have what you want. We may debate this endlessly over the net, but if you were physically here I could point at the reflections and if you once again could not see them then I would be forced to reconsider your eyesight, your sanity or both.

The simple laws of physics mean that no matter which way you turn a shiny object it is going to reflect something.

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> Since you already have keyboard, mouse and display, why should you pay to duplicate them and add to the world's trash problems?

That is a presumption, not a fact. It is either not true or specious, when they are attached to a computer you are replacing and in all probability would like to sell or keep as a functioning unit.

A PC keyboard and mouse may not even fit a Mac, depending on their vintage, as they may predate USB. Many PCs maintained PS2 keyboards and mice long after USB became common. Further, using a Windows' keyboard on a Mac involves clumsy compromises and any number of non-Mac keys will not function. Certainly the Alt and Windows keys will not be in the regular Mac positions of Opt and Cmd. Nor will there be USB ports on the keyboard.

Depending on the Monitor there may also be extra costs to buy the necessary adaptors to connect them.

The only happy marriage will be the mouse. If it is USB.

It is above all a very manipulated comparison of costs to compare a fully featured and fitted out (and much cheaper) PC to a Mac mini which needs a lot of extras to get going.

I initially liked the Mac mini when it came out because I thought it would develop into something. Instead it has pointlessly stagnated at a price that just leaves me wondering, "What the??".

Even compared with an iMac.

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> The PC laptop does have a screen, keyboard and touchpad as well as WiFi and inbuilt camera (which the Mac mini does not), and the Vista equivalent of iLife.

The Mini is not designed to compete with a laptop; Apple has many models of laptop to choose from. As such, the comparison is far from valid.

It is totally valid. It is a straight comparison of what you get for your money. The only thing the Mac mini has over the PC laptop is a more powerful processor. Everything else is more than matched by the PC. You yourself claimed the Mac mini had features that the PC did not, which is not true. A Mac mini can't even beat laptops that usually cost more than desktops.

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> Shall we pretend that Apple's policy of extremely competitive pricing and features in laptops which has lead to spectacular sales growth, is reflective of their manipulative marketing of desktops, which hasn't?

No, since Apple's laptops are priced on a scale with their desktops. Just because you can buy a Dell or an HP laptop at $600, does Apple sell one? No. And Apple's computer sales are growing at a rate 6x their competitors despite that differential.

Apple's laptops are not priced on a scale with the desktops. Apple's laptops are much better priced relatively to PC laptops than Mac desktops are to PC desktops. Worse is that due to huge gaps in the desktop lineup Macs users are forced to either buy a much more expensive option or forgo the features they really want.

Apple manipulates its desktop product line to manipulate its captive Mac consumers, particularly the designers who have high costs connected with their platform choice.

That is why virtually all Apple's growth is in laptops.

[vulpine]

[quote name='Biallystock']
>

vulpine said:

> We have agreed more than once that the glossy screen is not for everybody; you refuse to accept that it is appreciated by many.

Not true, yet another case of you putting words into my mouth. The real point is that you refuse to accept that it is not appreciated by many, many others don't care either way, but the choice has been removed by Apple.

Not my concern. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

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It does not concern you because you don't care. We may debate this endlessly over the net, but if you were physically here I could point at the reflections and if you once again could not see them then I would be forced to reconsider your eyesight, your sanity or both.

Or yours. I never said I couldn't see them, only that they don't interfere with my work as much as you claim they do yours. I would expect the environment alone is good cause for your problems. Since I don't work anywhere near you, I'm sure I'll never get the chance to see it from your particular viewpoint. Just stop claiming that your viewpoint is everyone's viewpoint. YOU are not everyone.

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> > Since you already have keyboard, mouse and display, why should you pay to duplicate them and add to the world's trash problems?

That is a presumption, not a fact. It is either not true or specious, when they are attached to a computer you are replacing and in all probability would like to sell or keep as a functioning unit.

So you won't even consider that some people literally throw their old machines away... sometimes right out the window. You should meet my father-in-law. He's had to replace windows of his house many times because a computer went flying through it.

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In any case a PC keyboard and mouse may not even fit a Mac, depending on their vintage, as they may predate USB. Many PCs maintained PS2 keyboards and mice long after USB became common. Further, using a Windows' keyboard on a Mac involves clumsy compromises and any number of non-Mac keys will not function. Certainly the Alt and Windows keys will not be in the regular Mac positions of Opt and Cmd. Nor will there be USB ports on the keyboard.

Of this you are partially correct, though adapters are available for PS2 keyboards and mice to USB. Also, it is not impossible to remap Windows keyboards to Apple's layout by simply going into the mapping utility. As for the USB ports on the keyboard, not all Apple keyboards have USB ports. It's a convenience.

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Depending on the Monitor there may also be extra costs to buy the necessary adaptors to connect them.

Or not, since the digital connector of most new displays is the same as the digital connector on most Macs. Even so, that extra cost is certainly minimal; it's not like you're adding hundreds of dollars to the price.

The only happy marriage will be the mouse. If it is USB.

Which in today's market is practically a given.
It is above all a very manipulated comparison of costs to compare a fully featured and fitted out (and much cheaper) PC to a Mac mini which needs a lot of extras to get going.

Full-featured PC? Hmmm... no Bluetooth, no 802.11x, usually Vista Home Basic... Uh huh. Full-featured.

I initially liked the Mac mini when it came out because I thought it would develop into something. Instead it has pointlessly stagnated at a price that just leaves me wondering, "What the??".

Perfectly your perogative. Still, if it weren't selling, Apple wouldn't be manufacturing it.

Even compared with an iMac.

> > The PC laptop does have a screen, keyboard and touchpad as well as WiFi and inbuilt camera (which the Mac mini does not), and the Vista equivalent of iLife.
>
> The Mini is not designed to compete with a laptop; Apple has many models of laptop to choose from. As such, the comparison is far from valid.

It is totally valid. It is a straight comparison of what you get for your money. The only thing the Mac mini has over the PC laptop is a more powerful processor. Everything else is more than matched by the PC. You yourself claimed the Mac mini had features that the PC did not, which is not true. A Mac mini can't even beat laptops that usually cost more than desktops.
So now you're trying to say a mobile Mac is the same thing as a desktop Mac. I'm sorry, that logic is anything but. I was also comparing to $300 PC desktops, not laptops as you seem so insistent on doing. The only advantage those $300 desktops have is an easy way to get into them and ADD the features you want, almost automatically bringing them up to the price of a Mini without even trying.

> > Shall we pretend that Apple's policy of extremely competitive pricing and features in laptops which has lead to spectacular sales growth, is reflective of their manipulative marketing of desktops, which hasn't?
>
> No, since Apple's laptops are priced on a scale with their desktops. Just because you can buy a Dell or an HP laptop at $600, does Apple sell one? No. And Apple's computer sales are growing at a rate 6x their competitors despite that differential.

Apple's laptops are not priced on a scale with the desktops. Apple's laptops are much better priced relatively to PC laptops than Mac desktops are to PC desktops. Worse is that due to huge gaps in the desktop lineup Macs users are forced to either buy a much more expensive option or forgo the features they really want.

Apple manipulates its desktop product line to manipulate its captive Mac consumers, particularly the designers who have high costs connected with their platform choice.

If this were true, then Apple's desktop sales should still be falling, shouldn't they? You so insist that they are manipulating the consumer but strangely it's Windows people buying the new desktops at least as much as Mac addicts. Proof of this is that when you walk into an Apple store, about 1 in 5 computers walking out the door is a desktop being purchased to supplement a laptop already owned by the individual. In my own case, I own 3 desktops and two laptops. I can also name at least one developer who bought a laptop to experiment with (he coded for Windows and Web apps) and within 5 months bought himself a Mac Pro and a MacBook Pro, giving his 5-month-old MacBook to his younger daughter. On top of this I can name several IT professionals who used to be very strong Windows proponents who have migrated to the Mac and claim they will never return to Windows. Both of them started with laptops and have since purchased desktops as well.
It appears that your arguments have almost no basis in fact. If it did, Apple would be selling Ten Times as many laptops as desktops; and the chart clearly shows that its more like 2:1 rather than 10:1.

That is why virtually all Apple's growth is in laptops.
I'm glad you qualified that, since there is clearly some visible growth again in desktops. Remember, back in 2000, Apple's laptops didn't have nearly the market they do now and that's one reason the desktop sales fell so much then. By the looks of things, Apple's desktops stand a chance of returning to those high numbers before the end of the decade.

[Biallystock]

vulpine said:

Not my concern. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Or support someone else who will manufacture what we want. Or go to a Hackintosh. Apple may be manufacturing a market here.

Either way it shoots down the argument that Apple supports its customers, not the other way round.

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Just stop claiming that your viewpoint is everyone's viewpoint. YOU are not everyone.

I am not claiming my viewpoint is everyone's, that's something you always assert. I am stating that the reflections exist no matter how much many deny it. Or how many deny they are a problem. For designers any distortion of their work is a problem, whether they ignore it or not.

It was not long ago that Apple was claiming one of the great superiorities of Macs over PCs was superior color, and here they are rendering that a nonsense.

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> > > Since you already have keyboard, mouse and display, why should you pay to duplicate them and add to the world's trash problems?
>
> That is a presumption, not a fact. It is either not true or specious, when they are attached to a computer you are replacing and in all probability would like to sell or keep as a functioning unit.

So you won't even consider that some people literally throw their old machines away... sometimes right out the window. You should meet my father-in-law. He's had to replace windows of his house many times because a computer went flying through it.

Now we go from the universal, absolute; "since you already have keyboard etc" to "some". Well lets continue. "Some" people already have Macs and therefore don't need to buy one at all, some people have multi-million dollar incomes, some people don't give a stuff about the environment so discard everything when their fancy takes them, some people just make unsubstantiated claims, some people don't use computers at all so this no problem at all.

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Of this you are partially correct, though adapters are available for PS2 keyboards and mice to USB. Also, it is not impossible to remap Windows keyboards to Apple's layout by simply going into the mapping utility. As for the USB ports on the keyboard, not all Apple keyboards have USB ports. It's a convenience.

All Apple's keyboards, have USB ports. It is more than a convenience if you have limited ports on your Mac mini. It is impossible in my experience, using Apple's mapping utility, to swap the Windows and Alt keys to the Mac positions, also all non Mac keys on the keyboard become dead.

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> Depending on the Monitor there may also be extra costs to buy the necessary adaptors to connect them.

Or not, since the digital connector of most new displays is the same as the digital connector on most Macs. Even so, that extra cost is certainly minimal; it's not like you're adding hundreds of dollars to the price.

So we are only recycling new equipment? We seem to be undergoing a time warp here. Also a fiscal double flip where no extra cost becomes "not like you're adding hundreds of dollars".

> The only happy marriage will be the mouse. If it is USB.

Which in today's market is practically a given.

Again only if it is a recent PC.
>
> It is above all a very manipulated comparison of costs to compare a fully featured and fitted out (and much cheaper) PC to a Mac mini which needs a lot of extras to get going.

Full-featured PC? Hmmm... no Bluetooth, no 802.11x, usually Vista Home Basic... Uh huh. Full-featured.

The only thing in your universal presumption here that is true, is the "Vista Home Basic". Which could have been upgraded and it's not like your (sic) adding hundreds. When are you going to stop claiming everything is about you? :-P
>
> I initially liked the Mac mini when it came out because I thought it would develop into something. Instead it has pointlessly stagnated at a price that just leaves me wondering, "What the??".

Perfectly your perogative. Still, if it weren't selling, Apple wouldn't be manufacturing it.

Even Apple in their various statements has admitted it is no big mover. But nobody is going to put any of Steve's ideas out of their misery without his say so.

> Even compared with an iMac.
>
> > > The PC laptop does have a screen, keyboard and touchpad as well as WiFi and inbuilt camera (which the Mac mini does not), and the Vista equivalent of iLife.
> >
> > The Mini is not designed to compete with a laptop; Apple has many models of laptop to choose from. As such, the comparison is far from valid.

How do you know what the Mini is designed for? As if it mattered. It's just a computer.
>
> It is totally valid. It is a straight comparison of what you get for your money. The only thing the Mac mini has over the PC laptop is a more powerful processor. Everything else is more than matched by the PC. You yourself claimed the Mac mini had features that the PC did not, which is not true. A Mac mini can't even beat laptops that usually cost more than desktops.
So now you're trying to say a mobile Mac is the same thing as a desktop Mac. I'm sorry, that logic is anything but. I was also comparing to $300 PC desktops, not laptops as you seem so insistent on doing. The only advantage those $300 desktops have is an easy way to get into them and ADD the features you want, almost automatically bringing them up to the price of a Mini without even trying.

Again you are saying I am saying? I repeat myself that it is just a computer and a laptop has presumably greater value than a desktop in Apple's pricing structure, so for purposes of comparison, I am going along with that.

> > > Shall we pretend that Apple's policy of extremely competitive pricing and features in laptops which has lead to spectacular sales growth, is reflective of their manipulative marketing of desktops, which hasn't?
> >
> > No, since Apple's laptops are priced on a scale with their desktops. Just because you can buy a Dell or an HP laptop at $600, does Apple sell one? No. And Apple's computer sales are growing at a rate 6x their competitors despite that differential.
>
> Apple's laptops are not priced on a scale with the desktops. Apple's laptops are much better priced relatively to PC laptops than Mac desktops are to PC desktops. Worse is that due to huge gaps in the desktop lineup Macs users are forced to either buy a much more expensive option or forgo the features they really want.
>
> Apple manipulates its desktop product line to manipulate its captive Mac consumers, particularly the designers who have high costs connected with their platform choice.

If this were true, then Apple's desktop sales should still be falling, shouldn't they? You so insist that they are manipulating the consumer but strangely it's Windows people buying the new desktops at least as much as Mac addicts. Proof of this is that when you walk into an Apple store, about 1 in 5 computers walking out the door is a desktop being purchased to supplement a laptop already owned by the individual. In my own case, I own 3 desktops and two laptops. I can also name at least one developer who bought a laptop to experiment with (he coded for Windows and Web apps) and within 5 months bought himself a Mac Pro and a MacBook Pro, giving his 5-month-old MacBook to his younger daughter. On top of this I can name several IT professionals who used to be very strong Windows proponents who have migrated to the Mac and claim they will never return to Windows. Both of them started with laptops and have since purchased desktops as well.
It appears that your arguments have almost no basis in fact. If it did, Apple would be selling Ten Times as many laptops as desktops; and the chart clearly shows that its more like 2:1 rather than 10:1.

If you are going to make up numerical relationships can't you make them zingier? Hundreds, no thousands of times? Your original argument seems to be it must be right or Apple wouldn't be doing this. Mine is Apple isn't right, just because you say so, and in this I believe they are harming their desktop sales which could be greater if they satisfied consumers' needs. I personally know of people who have bought and shelved their Macs. People who used to own Macs but have not bought any recently because they can't get the one they want and people who just won't buy Macs because Apple restricts what they can buy.

That still covers 95% of the market, not the piddling few you mention. Or is that a piddling 95% opposed to a massive 5?

Particularly in the piddling 95% of humanity outside the USA.

Sorry I forgot. They are not real consumers, in not real countries.

> That is why virtually all Apple's growth is in laptops.
I'm glad you qualified that, since there is clearly some visible growth again in desktops. Remember, back in 2000, Apple's laptops didn't have nearly the market they do now and that's one reason the desktop sales fell so much then. By the looks of things, Apple's desktops stand a chance of returning to those high numbers before the end of the decade.

They still have a long way to go to get back to 8 year old figures.

[vulpine]

[quote name='Biallystock']
>

vulpine said:

>
> It appears that your arguments have almost no basis in fact. If it did, Apple would be selling Ten Times as many laptops as desktops; and the chart clearly shows that its more like 2:1 rather than 10:1.

If you are going to make up numerical relationships can't you make them zingier? Hundreds, no thousands of times? Your original argument seems to be it must be right or Apple wouldn't be doing this. Mine is Apple isn't right, just because you say so, and in this I believe they are harming their desktop sales which could be greater if they satisfied consumers' needs. I personally know of people who have bought and shelved their Macs. People who used to own Macs but have not bought any recently because they can't get the one they want and people who just won't buy Macs because Apple restricts what they can buy.

I'm going to ignore most of your responses here because their speciousness is obvious to almost anyone reading them. I made my points and I would say that the majority of the remaining readers of this thread fully understand them.

However, your comment regarding "numerical relationships" obviously proves that if the numbers don't say what you want them to, you'll just ignore them and make up your own.

I based my comments on the chart associated with this article and nothing else. I did not "make them up" and they are not because "I said so," which honestly sounds like your type of logic. The charts show that Apple's sales of desktop computers is increasing and considering that the FY'08 numbers aren't all in until October, the proportions I gave are realistic even if not completely accurate since I don't have figures that don't even exist yet.

However, it has been reported in more than one place that Apple's total computer sales are up by as much as 40% over last year and these figures include desktops and laptops. Apple's competitors are scrambling to match Apple's look to the extent that even the new HP TouchSmart AIO computer uses.... wait for it.... a polished glass display.

Apple has rarely been the first out with a given product, and when they were, that product tended to fail one way or another. Some examples of this are the Lisa, the Newton, the Mac TV and the Cube. Strangely enough, the graphical interface, the PDA, TV tuners for computers and even Cube-sized PCs are being built by their competitors today. Why? Going farther, USB was essentially ignored by the other manufacturers, until Apple made it standard equipment on the iMac. Firewire was ignored... until the Mac made it standard and video camera manufacturers adopted it for upload into the computer. The All-in-One computer? Really, Apple wasn't first. I well remember the Commodore Pet back in 1979.

Apple leads almost across the board, not as the first to adopt something, but to re-engineer it to be something people will want. They can't satisfy everyone. YOU can't satisfy everyone. But they try to satisfy more people than their competition, and it seems to be working as their market continues to grow faster than their competitors' Given time, Apple will be on a par with its competitors in total number of computer sales. Or they will fall catastrophically. Either way, the world will change.