[mac_luva]

jman3001 the troll wrote: "Sorry, I will never
believe for a millisecond that Apple would go out of business if they
had to license their OS to people that wanted to install it on there
own computer." Think you mean 'their' own computer.

"BTW, if you're going to criticize people, make sure your spelling is correct. It really makes you look ignorant when you are trying to be pompous without the intelligence to know how to spell correctly." Sound familiar? You said it!

It's a great troll tactic but it can backfire, no?

[mac_luva]

jman3001 so insightfully said: "Actually Apple is 100% of their market. Apple Macintosh is not a PC and so can't be put in the same league. Apple would like people to think they are competing with the PC, but PCs don't run OS X, because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah"

I stopped reading because I was laughing soooo hard! There is just no stopping this guy. I do believe he has been buying Macs for 20 years, though.

Yeah... his mom & dad bought him his first one when he was born! Boooyah!

This guys got to be in high school. Or, at the very least, is an adult-child. If he is in fact older than 20 years old I would be very surprised!

I think we should all just make fun of him from now on. Its what he deserves!

[jman3001]

What I see from this Blog, is that everyone is so nervous they are pissing in their pants. That's the way people act when they find out they've been had. Say whatever you want about me. To me it's neither "here" or "there".

In the meantime, I have a life and a successful business that doesn't allow me much time to waste on fools. We went ahead and purchased 4 more "Open Computers" for the office and 6 "Open Pros" for the studios A & B. That should last us for a while, until all the legal smoke clears.

The next few years will show everyone here that times change, situations change, and business is always changing.

Those that want to continue to overpay for machines, be my guest.

Personally, I don't love Psystar. I just love the way they opened the door, and pulled the curtain away from the little man behind the curtain.

[vulpine]

And this post essentially proves our conjectures about your experiences and your credibility; as soon as we challenge your statements, you attempt to ramp up your image by claiming an even higher level of importance. This is very typical of a teenager (and even younger) whose lies have been caught out and doesn't want to lose face.

In other words, if we didn't believe you before, we're hardly likely to believe you now without clear and incontrovertible proof of your words.

We all know that times, situations and business change; Apple proved that ten years ago by reversing its slide into bankruptcy through introducing the iMac and disenfranchising all Mac clones. As a result Apple has more than tripled its installed market share and sales, despite your arguments, are increasing at a rate in excess of 30% greater than the growth of any of its PC competitors in the US. This is definitely not a sign of a machine being, as you say, overpriced. Yes, Apple is supposedly introducing a new, lower-priced model, but this isn't necessarily to "be like the others" (especially since the 'others' have models much lower-priced than this one is forecast) but rather to bring more capability into a lower-priced unit and adapt to the current economic downturn being felt by everyone.

Which brings up another point: If Apple's computers were so overpriced, why did Apple's stock yesterday rise almost 25% when all the other computer companies rise a maximum of only 8%? Why would their stocks rise four times faster than HP or even DELL? (And look at Lenovo. Of all the computer companies, they actually fell more than 10%.) Is this the sign of a company struggling to compete?

No, you've found out that all you've managed to do is insult the intelligence of people on this thread. You've done so poorly that you've convinced people who might have considered a Psystar into avoiding them and buying a real Apple. I feel sorry for you. Maybe it is time for you to get a real life; you've been living in your fantasy world long enough.

[jman3001]

I'm 30 years too late to be a teenager again. Apple's stock went up and so did the entire stock market yesterday. Apple may seem attractive to some investors because of the iPhone, the iPod, or the new lower price on the MacBooks. The success of Apple over the last few years is greatly based on the iPod and not because of the overpriced MacPro desktops. I think a lot of professionals like the Mac laptops, unless they got one with the faulty graphics card installed.

I'm being criticized because I don't agree with the current "closed" EULA. So what?

I'm buying Intel machines and Mac zealots are buying Intel machines. It's all a lot of hog wash over what may very well be illegal licensing agreements, and I could care less. In these hard economic times, I'm going to buy what I need to get the job done, and I'm not going to spend $1000's of dollars extra to be "cool" and have an Apple logo from a "boutique" design computer maker.

[vulpine]

jman3001 said:

I'm 30 years too late to be a teenager again. Apple's stock went up and so did the entire stock market yesterday. Apple may seem attractive to some investors because of the iPhone, the iPod, or the new lower price on the MacBooks. The success of Apple over the last few years is greatly based on the iPod and not because of the overpriced MacPro desktops. I think a lot of professionals like the Mac laptops, unless they got one with the faulty graphics card installed.

And of course, you choose not to even acknowledge the direct question I asked. I acknowledged that all but one of the computer manufacturers saw a rise, but asked why, if Apple is doing so poorly, did they go up more than twice as fast? Even now, as of 2:30 in the afternoon (EDT) as the market is sliding again, Dell is falling twice as fast (though admittedly HP isn't falling quite as quickly) and this is before news of Apple's announcements has hit the boards. Oh, and Apple fooled us all here; the $900 item is not a computer in itself, but rather a 22" display designed to supplement the MacBook and make it more viable as a desktop system. Apple, again, is working towards reliability and durability, making the new notebook chassis out of a single block of aluminum rather than riveted or welded frames.

Quote

I'm being criticized because I don't agree with the current "closed" EULA. So what?

You're being criticized because you refuse to acknowledge that Psystar is breaking the law; and I don't mean just the EULA.

Quote

I'm buying Intel machines and Mac zealots are buying Intel machines. It's all a lot of hog wash over what may very well be illegal licensing agreements, and I could care less. In these hard economic times, I'm going to buy what I need to get the job done, and I'm not going to spend $1000's of dollars extra to be "cool" and have an Apple logo from a "boutique" design computer maker.

Licensing agreements aside, Psystar is breaking the law. They are taking copyrighted information from Apple's OS (outside of the Open Source parts) and changing them in order for them to work on their products. They have, more than once, stated that all OS X updates for their Open Computer devices must come from Psystar's servers; again emphasizing that they have to modify Apple's software in order for it to work and making it painfully obvious that they are infringing on Copyrights.

Go buy your cheap stuff. And while you buy 2, 3 or even 4 new machines over the course of the next few years, I'll keep going with my one; unless Apple comes up with a significant improvement over what I already own. My G4 Mac Mini is still working fine as my DVR; my iMacs are still doing everything I demand of them; I expect them to last several more years. In fact, the next Mac I buy will likely be a laptop to replace my aging G3 iBook, but since it's not dead yet, I feel no need to replace it.

[Grapho]

jman3001 said:

I'm 30 years too late to be a teenager again. Apple's stock went up and so did the entire stock market yesterday. Apple may seem attractive to some investors because of the iPhone, the iPod, or the new lower price on the MacBooks. The success of Apple over the last few years is greatly based on the iPod and not because of the overpriced MacPro desktops. I think a lot of professionals like the Mac laptops, unless they got one with the faulty graphics card installed.

Once again you are wrong. Apple, iPod or not, still drives the majority of their business selling Macs, and guess what, they are selling more boutique Apple logo sporting computer then ever before. As a matter of fact, this year they sold, in only three quarters, more Macs then in the entire prior year.

If you are referring to the nVida graphic chip that already Apple has a reaper program for, I don't really know why you even bring it up. Once again, you bring up the MacPro. Your Psystar is slightly better then a Mac mini, not even comparable to an iMac, much less to a MacPro, give it up man.

Quote

I'm being criticized because I don't agree with the current "closed" EULA. So what?

You are being criticized because you keep on stubbornly bringing up your baseless points. You have literally been at it for more then a month.

Quote

I'm buying Intel machines and Mac zealots are buying Intel machines. It's all a lot of hog wash over what may very well be illegal licensing agreements, and I could care less. In these hard economic times, I'm going to buy what I need to get the job done, and I'm not going to spend $1000's of dollars extra to be "cool" and have an Apple logo from a "boutique" design computer maker.

In that case, why do you keep on arguing. You made up you mind a long time ago. Do you actually think you are going to change our minds about Psystar. Let me put it this why, even if they had Apples blessing and they were not infringing on copyright law, I would not buy one, because if the people that designed the OS, according to you, can get it right as far as their hardware, what makes you think a two man shop out of a warehouse in florida is going to fair any better?

I just walked out of an Apple store, I had a faulty Time Capsule. I took it in, the tech diagnosed it and he reached the same conclusion that I did. It had a faulty HD. To make the story short, I have a brand new one in the trunk of my car. It all took less then 20 minutes tops. Do you think Psystar can give you this kind of service? If you do, you must live right next to the Warehouse that they are clandestinely building their illicit wares. You can knock on the door, but if they both left for lunch, you will not get very good service.:-)

Message was edited by: Grapho

[jman3001]

My 5000 shares of Apple stock was doing nothing until they announced the iPod and it started catching on. Apple's huge rise is and was based solely on the iPod. Now the features of the iPhone have a lot of people interested in investing in those. Macs are selling better than previous years, but Macs have always been in their own niche group of Apple products. Laptops are doing well for Apple, we'll see how that goes in the future. Personally, I hate laptops that are too thin.

As I've had to say way too many times, my reason for leaving the Apple logo is because the latest Apple computers have not lived up to their price tags. I've tested the Psystar machine and found it to be very good. Of course the Open Computer is a low end machine and will not be as fast on paper as a computer with more clock speed (2.4Ghz). The Open Pro Computers do much better and offer plenty of speed. There are a lot of alternatives out their for Intel machines, this is just the direction we will go in for now.

If Psystar is found guilty of anything, we will stop doing business with them. For now, they have only been tried and found guilty on this website. One way or the other, we need machines that will provide good service for a number of years. Unfortunately, the Macs I've had since 2000, haven't been that reliable. Your mileage may vary.

[Grapho]

jman3001 said:

My 5000 shares of Apple stock was doing nothing until they announced the iPod and it started catching on. Apple's huge rise is and was based solely on the iPod. Now the features of the iPhone have a lot of people interested in investing in those. Macs are selling better than previous years, but Macs have always been in their own niche group of Apple products. Laptops are doing well for Apple, we'll see how that goes in the future. Personally, I hate laptops that are too thin.

I guess you should have sold when they hit $200.

Quote

As I've had to say way too many times, my reason for leaving the Apple logo is because the latest Apple computers have not lived up to their price tags. I've tested the Psystar machine and found it to be very good. Of course the Open Computer is a low end machine and will not be as fast on paper as a computer with more clock speed (2.4Ghz). The Open Pro Computers do much better and offer plenty of speed. There are a lot of alternatives out their for Intel machines, this is just the direction we will go in for now.

If my IIci, PowerPC 8500, Blue and White G3, Mirror Doors G4, iBook G3, Power Book G4, MacBook, G5 or MacPro have had any problem what so ever, I probably would think deferentially. But let me re cap, The Power Book had a recall on the battery, I got the new battery in before having to send the old one back, no down time. The MacBook had an issue with the hand rest, they exchanged it in less then 15 minutes. My iPod had a scratch, they exchanged it by paying a restocking fee. And my last problem, my Time Capsule had a faulty hard drive, they exchanged it in less then 20 minutes after the tech reached the same conclusion that I had. So all and all, I have gotten extraordinary service from Apple. On each of my cases, they have taken care of me in a very efficient manner, and this is the thing, it's the norm. Like me, a lot of people have the same good experience. But since you didn't get this experience, you attempt to make it sound like Apple has a problem. You are entitled to your opinion, even if it's wrong, but just think if your Open Computer ever develops a problem, then you can really judge on how well Psystar responds to your needs. As of today, you haven't had to deal with it, but frankly, I don't think they have the resources that Apple has, so their is no way that they could even attempt to compete in this area. HP and Dell don't have Apple's customer service satisfaction. Where does this leave Psystar?

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If Psystar is found guilty of anything, we will stop doing business with them. For now, they have only been tried and found guilty on this website. One way or the other, we need machines that will provide good service for a number of years. Unfortunately, the Macs I've had since 2000, haven't been that reliable. Your mileage may vary.

Frankly, just like I have been lucky with my 9 Macs over the years, you probably got lucky with your Open Computer, here too you milage can vary, so please, don't try to attempt to paint Psystar as a superior solution, because the facts are simply not in yet. Having owned 9 Macs that have preformed to their expectations, Apple being in business for over 25 years, can speak volumes towards a company that has always strived for excellence. Psystar, on the other hand has been in business for less the eight months? They base their entire business model in parasitically reaping the benefits of others hard work, they bring NO INNOVATION to the table. They are simply, opportunistically attempting to cash in on the increased popularity of OSX.

You are like the people that buy pirated movies. Who cares if the creator and investor do not get compensated for their hard work, as long as you get you cheap product. Who cares if this is immoral, illicit or illegal, what counts is you saving a buck.

[shawend]

While I agree with most of what Grapho had to say I think his analogy to pirated movies is flat out wrong. I happen to run OSX on a non Apple piece of hardware, in this case a Dell. I went to the local Apple store and purchased a copy of OSX and iLife for the price that Apple charges for them. In order for your analogy to be accurate I would have had to use the copy of OSX that came with one of my Apples and load that on the Dell. Apple could of course end this entire discussion by NOT re-selling OSX independently. While Apple will probably trounce Psystar handily it will NEVER be able to keep people from running OSX on a vast array of non-Apple hardware. Nor do I think that they really care to try and stop individuals from doing this.

Shawen

[dbutenhof]

shawend said:

While I agree with most of what Grapho had to say I think his analogy to pirated movies is flat out wrong. I happen to run OSX on a non Apple piece of hardware, in this case a Dell. I went to the local Apple store and purchased a copy of OSX and iLife for the price that Apple charges for them. In order for your analogy to be accurate I would have had to use the copy of OSX that came with one of my Apples and load that on the Dell. Apple could of course end this entire discussion by NOT re-selling OSX independently.

Meaning, what? That anyone who buys an Apple machine would need to buy a new one to upgrade to a new version of Mac OS X or iLife? Now that would be pretty silly.

The license on each package specifically forbids installing on non-Apple hardware. It is, effectively, an upgrade package, because there's nobody with a legal right to install it who doesn't already own an older version. It would be redundant to label it "upgrade".

But Apple isn't really concerned about an occasional hobbyist "frankenmac". A profiteering commercial vendor deliberately violating the EULA and copyrights on every system they sell, however, is a different matter.

Selling unrestricted "non-upgrade" copies would allow you and Psystar to install legally. The problem is that this would be an enormously complicated and expensive procedure for Apple, entailing support (and complicated and expensive testing) of every "bargain basement" hardware system that might theoretically be capable of running that package. They'd have to be assured of making enough extra money to justify that expense. Experience shows that's not going to happen, so they're simply not interested. (Or, to put it another way, how much extra would Apple need to charge for a non-upgrade package to recoup their testing and support investment... and how much could they afford to raise it before potential buyers lost interest... and is there any price point that meets both needs?)

[Grapho]

Apple so far has not tried to curve the Hackintosh crowd. Even Macworld wrote a comprehensive article on such effort. Just like me copying a CD that a friend lend me to put it in my iTunes library, I don't think it's the same thing as buying the same pirated CD on a flee market. For one, the first my fall in to fair use, second, I am not supporting the people that are monetarily benefiting from this type of illicit business model.

Just like the labels are not going after people who copy a friends CD into their iTunes library, Apple probably will not go after people like you. In ether case, their my be some morality issues in question, but I do think that if you attempted to buy Dell computers and install OSX on them to later sell them to turn a profit, Apple would probably start to have a problem with you.

The fact of putting OSX on a none Macintosh computer is not the same thing then doing it to turn a profit. I can use almost any song I want on a school project with out asking permission, but if I turn around and sell such project for profit at a later date, I bet the song writer will start looking for me.

[shawend]

Not selling OSX independently would indeed be silly but but within Apple's rights. I believe that Psystar is going to loose huge in this ill-conceived legal foray for them. I also believe that the EULA section limiting the software installation to Apple only hardware is illegal and would loose in court. Fortunately for Apple we will never find this out because Psystar is going down before it ever gets that far. Also, even if Psystar won that little bit it still would not save them. In order for just that section of the EULA to be tested in court Apple would have to select a frankenmac user and sue them or a frankenmac user would have to sue Apple. Though I can not off the top of my head come up with a viable standing for a frankenmac user to sue Apple. Since Apple is not going to do this because quite honestly what would they have to gain we may never know.

Finally, I do not understand where this argument that Apple would have to support OSX on other platforms comes from. If the EULA section mandating Apple hardware were somehow struck down, Apple would somehow be FORCED to test, validate, and support OSX on other hardware platforms. This is simply NOT the case. Apple would NOT have to support other hardware or even test that OSX could or would run on any other hardware and no one could FORCE them to do so.

[shawend]

Loading a "fiend's" CD into your iTunes library is not fair use it is THEFT! Fair use would be lading YOUR CD into YOUR iTunes library. If you purchase a pirated CD from a flea market in order to have done something wrong you would have to KNOW that the CD was in-fact pirated.

In this case I am paying the creator of the original work for their work. Albeit, that I am breaching one of the conditions of that license. Apple is still getting the money. Is it legally wrong, probably. Morally equivalent to stealing music, NO WAY.