[jman3001]

Apple doesn't have to make it for us, but they had it in the last MacBook, and now they just decided to make people pay $2000 if someone wants an Apple laptop with Firewire capabilities. Unfortunately, the MacBook Pro is using FW 800, which may cause even more problems for people with a need for FW 400 in specific devices.

Fortunately for me, I have an older MacBook and it has FW 400. Since Firewire has been with Apple for some years, people need to wonder why Apple is abandoning the very application that they have sponsored, practically since it's inception.

I guess we have to learn that Apple is the lord and whatever the lord wants and does, the sheep must follow. I guess I'm just not a follower.

In the meantime, there are thousands of loyal Mac users that agree with me that Apple screwed up with the missing Firewire output in the latest MacBook.

[jman3001]

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{quote:title=Macworld wrote:}Yes, clearly, anybody who sells something you'd like for free, or for less, is greedy. So you're in audio and video? I'm sure that you, being a considerate and ungreedy person, would be thrilled if someone simply took the product of your hard work and deployed it for their own purposes and profit without your permission. You would think this is completely fair, as there are people who'd like to see it and distributed it commercially as they wish, for their own profit, without your tedious and inconvenient copyright restrictions. Or are you hypocritical on top of everything else?{quote}

I personally would have no problem with anyone using anything I created as long as they paid the licensing fee. Apple is saying that OS X can only be on their computers because OS X won't run right on anything else. The fact is. OS X runs just as well on my Psystar as it does on my Apple. At times better.

[dbutenhof]

jman3001 said:

I personally would have no problem with anyone using anything I created as long as they paid the licensing fee. Apple is saying that OS X can only be on their computers because OS X won't run right on anything else. The fact is. OS X runs just as well on my Psystar as it does on my Apple. At times better.

No, that's not what they say. What they say is that they created it, and they have the right to control its distribution on their terms. You're arguing that they shouldn't. So the same should apply to you and your creations. Most of the cost of developing, testing, distributing, and supporting Mac OS X comes from hardware sales, because Apple is a hardware company. Psystar does not contribute to the costs of developing the software. Whether they would if Apple allowed it is irrelevant. They don't allow it, and regardless of your preferences there's no reason they should have to. You don't have to buy Mac OS X, or Apple hardware. Switch to Windows. Or download any of a number of Linux distributions completely for free... that's Open Source.

Pro apps you need not available on Linux? Sucks, eh? So go pick on the software developers and try to force them to port to Linux. By your rules, it shouldn't matter a bit whether they want to, or whether they'd actually make any money at it, right? It's only about what you want, after all.

[mac_luva]

C'mon jman, admit it.

You don't even use Macs. I bet you just want to see Psystar succeed in killing Apple.

Over and over again it has been mentioned that Mac cloning has been done before and it nearly killed off Apple. You should know this. You've been using Macs for 20 years, right? You remember the 1990's and how bad Apple was doing then?

So, explain to us why it would be different now?

What has changed that would make a different outcome possible? How would Apple compete with the clones?

And just for the sake of argument, what if Apple couldn't compete with the cheap POS clones and Apple died off?

WHO WOULD DEVELOP OSX THEN??? YOU???

Your rationale for buying an illegal clone is just as flawed as most of your logic.

Apple would die in a clone takes all environment, and your precious cheap Mac would be a relic for the Museum of Computers like the Amiga.

But my guess is you don't really care, or that you are so short sighted and hardheaded that you just don't believe clones would spell the end of Apple as we know it until it actually happened. Well, then it would be too late wouldn't it?

[jman3001]

First off, Psystar DOES pay for Apple's development of software when they pay the full price of the full version of OS X. Licensing fees PAY for development. Anyone can have any song I've written as long as they pay the licensing fee, I'm all for it.

Second, I've been overpaying for Macs since 1990. I've personally owned over 20 Macs and my business has used over 100 Macs in the process of doing production work. I've owned LCs, Quadras, Performas, PPC 8500, PPC 9600, PPC G4, PPC G5, and Now I own an INTEL Mac Pro 8-Core and an INTEL MacBook.

Third, Apple is no where NEAR the company they were in the 1990's. Apple has the iPhone, iPod, MacBooks, iMacs, and Mac Pros to keep them busy and afloat. Their operating system is developed to the point of tweaking. Actually, at this point, the more Apple messes with OS X the worse it will become, just like Vista for the PC makers.

Fourth, in the 1990's Apple got in trouble with the Clone Makers because the clone makers, very simply, made a much better computer than Apple was making. Apple at that time had the 9600, which was ok, but not as robust as what the clone makers could put out. Apple also had problems with their chips from Motorola and that had a lot more to do with their failure than any clone maker. Apple didn't have the iPod or the iPhone or near the direction they have today.

Fifth, whether Apple likes it or not, they, made an OS that runs very nicely on PCs. Other Clone makers in other countries are already starting up and the future is very bright for Apple if they grow-up and realize that times change and strategies change.

In the meantime, my Psystar is 6 months old and running OS 10.5.6 perfectly. My Mac Pro still has intermittent shutdown problems and waking from sleep Kernal panics. Apple has been notified through reports of the problems, but they are not able to help with their under-trained oversees representatives that answer their phones. As far as who sees the reports I send in I have no idea who sees them or if anyone even cares that their machines don't perform properly.

I also see that Apple will no longer attend MacWorld. Interesting development, especially when the event has their name on it. Apparently, their dog and pony show is no longer as affective as it once was, or they simply don't have much for Steve Jobs to crow about these days.

[vulpine]

Poor, poor, boy. You just can't admit when you're wrong, can you?

jman3001 said:

First off, Psystar DOES pay for Apple's development of software when they pay the full price of the full version of OS X. Licensing fees PAY for development. Anyone can have any song I've written as long as they pay the licensing fee, I'm all for it.

No, they don't. They are not licensed By APPLE to resell the operating system in any form. They buy at retail and resell it as part of their Open Computer package. Apple has every right to pick and choose who can sell their OS, just as Microsoft does.

Quote

Second, I've been overpaying for Macs since 1990. I've personally owned over 20 Macs and my business has used over 100 Macs in the process of doing production work. I've owned LCs, Quadras, Performas, PPC 8500, PPC 9600, PPC G4, PPC G5, and Now I own an INTEL Mac Pro 8-Core and an INTEL MacBook.

Back in the 1990s, you very well could have been overpaying. In fact, one of the reasons that the clone manufacturers ate so much of Apple's hardware sales is because they cut Apple's prices by approximately $100. It is NOT that they made a more robust machine; rather, Apple had very strict guidelines even then as to what components could go into a machine and still be called a Mac clone. How do I know? I requested and received a complete build-up package describing in detail what could be used and requiring that a sample machine be shipped at my cost to Apple for examination and analysis before I could earn a license as a clone maker. Even then they demanded very strict control of any machine that would carry the Macintosh name.
As of about 5 years ago, that price differential you continue to harp about has vanished. When matched component for component, including all the things Psystar chooses to eliminate, has the other brands' computers priced the same or higher than the Mac.

Quote

Third, Apple is no where NEAR the company they were in the 1990's. Apple has the iPhone, iPod, MacBooks, iMacs, and Mac Pros to keep them busy and afloat. Their operating system is developed to the point of tweaking. Actually, at this point, the more Apple messes with OS X the worse it will become, just like Vista for the PC makers.

You're right; Apple is far better than they were in many ways. Why? Because Apple is not run by accountants, but rather by people who understand hardware engineering and design. Apple has gone out of its way with every product since 1998 to produce a device that would not only look good (cool factor for all you naysayers) but work better in many ways than any equivalent device preceding it by any other manufacturer. This is why the iPod has taken over the digital music player market. This is why the iPhone is taking over the smart phone market. And this is why the Apple Computer is making significant inroads on the Windows market. By letting some upstart company with cheap, low-grade hardware commercially market that machine as "Mac Compatible," it effectively does the same thing to Apple that "Vista Compatible" did to Microsoft's reputation.

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Fourth, in the 1990's Apple got in trouble with the Clone Makers because the clone makers, very simply, made a much better computer than Apple was making. Apple at that time had the 9600, which was ok, but not as robust as what the clone makers could put out. Apple also had problems with their chips from Motorola and that had a lot more to do with their failure than any clone maker. Apple didn't have the iPod or the iPhone or near the direction they have today.

I responded to this in item Two. The clone makers didn't make a superior machine, in fact, reviewers of the day frequently said that the clones were barely passable and rarely as reliable. In fact, UMAX in particular developed a very poor reputation and shut its doors even before Steve Jobs cancelled the Mac Clones. Their only advantage was the fact that they were $100 cheaper than the real thing; and at $1500 to $2000 a pop, that $100 did make a difference.

Quote

Fifth, whether Apple likes it or not, they, made an OS that runs very nicely on PCs. Other Clone makers in other countries are already starting up and the future is very bright for Apple if they grow-up and realize that times change and strategies change.

Again I will dispute this. As long as you build the machine yourself and don't do ANY upgrades once you install OS X, then for the average user the Hackintosh will work well. However, with every update those home-builders have to rewrite their hack code to make the upgrade function on those machines. This, too, is something that Psystar requires of its buyers: that all upgrades to OS X MUST be downloaded from Psystar's servers, once again proving that they are breaching Apple's copyrights for profit.

In the meantime, my Psystar is 6 months old and running OS 10.5.6 perfectly. My Mac Pro still has intermittent shutdown problems and waking from sleep Kernal panics. Apple has been notified through reports of the problems, but they are not able to help with their under-trained oversees representatives that answer their phones. As far as who sees the reports I send in I have no idea who sees them or if anyone even cares that their machines don't perform properly.

It seems quite obvious to me that you choose to ignore the established procedures to have your computer repaired; assuming that your complaints are even valid. Never... I repeat, Never have I made a call to Apple Service and connected to an offshore phone tech. Before I had an Apple Store within easy reach of my home, when I had a problem I spoke to as many as three different levels of tech support and in one particular case where I could prove that it was a hardware issue by following their instructions, I had a replacement machine cross-shipped to me within 24 hours. That's right, cross-shipped, meaning they didn't even wait for my defective unit to arrive before shipping the replacement, the delivery person picking up my repackaged unit the same day he delivered the replacement.
It's this kind of service that has earned Apple the highest customer satisfaction rating of all computer manufacturers, more than double the rating of most of their competitors. If everyone who owned an Apple was having the kind of problem you claim is common to them, why would 80% of their customers be so satisfied with their products? Your logic fails miserably on this one fact alone.
I also see that Apple will no longer attend MacWorld. Interesting development, especially when the event has their name on it. Apparently, their dog and pony show is no longer as affective as it once was, or they simply don't have much for Steve Jobs to crow about these days.

And again you are wrong in your specifics. True, Apple will no longer attend MacWorld, but that event does not have Apple's name anywhere in it. The event was originated by MacWorld Magazine as a trade show for all things Macintosh related. Apple didn't even attend the first few MacWorld events. It's been almost 5 years since Apple attended MacWorld Boston and they stated even then that it was simply a matter of time before they ceased attending MacWorld San Francisco as well.
Steve Jobs has demonstrated that he doesn't need a big venue to make a splash with new or improved products. Apple's attendance at the MacWorld Conferences served more as a draw to bring more people to the conventions than anything else. And honestly, with the cost of living what it is today, are YOU likely to fly to San Fran to attend a week-long conference? I mean, Really! Can you be sure your credit card won't be cancelled while you're out there and leave you stranded? It's already happened to more than one person.

No. The more you complain, the more you prove just how little you really know about Apple or its products. Apple has proven over and over again that they are willing to take risks to make a better product than you can buy off the average computer-dealers' shelves. This goes for their entertainment and communications devices as well as their computers. Yes, they've had failures, but their successes have been spectacular. I think you'll find that when someone finally claims they've figured out how to integrate computers, communications and entertainment into a coherent whole, Apple will already be there.

[jman3001]

Well I guess we can see that Apple is so terrified of Psystar, that they have their morons scanning the MacWorld pages to make sure they respond to every allegation, as if their entire life depended on it.
Your responses are idiotic. Psystar has never been involved in any of my upgrades. I use the combo updater like any other Mac user that knows how to properly upgrade, The Psystar open computer, which I bought over 6 months ago, has excellent parts in it and is much better assembled than most of the Macs I've owned. It's a very clean computer and runs OS X flawlessly. Why doesn't the $3000 Mac pro run flawlessly? Oh, I guess I got the one computer Apple built in China that didn't come out right.
MacWorld has nothing to do with Apple? Then where does the word MAC come from? This is obviously a demented Apple fanatic or an Apple employee trying to make excuses for the fact that now that the entire Country is in a recession, Apple is in trouble with it's pricing policy and Steve Jobs no longer has the "Balls" to get up in front of an audience of followers and try to justify the extremely poor job Apple has done in delivering an inexpensive "Quality" Mac to the masses. Sorry, the iMac and the Mac Cube are not like owning a mini tower or any decent upgradable computer. Apple Fails!! It will cost the buyer $2000 to get a real Mac, that has real upgradable capability. Even then, you're never going to upgrade the logic board. Your wonderful Mac will be in your life for 5 years max, and then be outdated. Please don't right in about your wonderful G4 or G5 that you got lucky with and still own. They're both slower than my $500 Psystar and are obsolete machines.
As far as the past, and the clones. People can figure this out by themselves without hearing psycho-babble. If Apple put restrictions on the clone-makers it's because Apple was selling crap machines and they didn't want the clone-maker to beat their own models, which they did anyway.
Apple would not exist today if it were not for the iPod. So, I guess all you fanatics can dance around the iPod and applaud that a crappy computer maker finally made something people wanted.
I like the Apple design and I like their current OS X, but their computers are nothing to get cult crazy over. They're OK, and that's being generous.
And BTW, I've called Apple many times about my Mac Pro and I'm not getting any GREAT assistance. I do get 3rd world customer support every time I call. What I've always found with Apple, is that if you have a major problem they'll help fix it, if you're within the first year or you buy their over-priced Apple Care. But the strange stuff that I have encountered on my Macs, they don't want to mess with. It's always, "Reset the SMU, Zap the PRAM, and Pray."
Now you can spend another half-a-day looking through Mac World so you can make another stupid tirade, and in the meantime I continue to use my Psystar computers with great success. So, berate all you want. After all, you paid Apple enough money for the right to do it. Maybe someday you'll get a real job and you won't have to be their biatch anymore.

[vulpine]

jman3001 said:

Well I guess we can see that Apple is so terrified of Psystar, that they have their morons scanning the MacWorld pages to make sure they respond to every allegation, as if their entire life depended on it.

It sure doesn't take any scanning to receive email. And it seems to me most of the so-called allegations are made by you. But that's beside the point.

Quote

Your responses are idiotic. Psystar has never been involved in any of my upgrades. I use the combo updater like any other Mac user that knows how to properly upgrade, The Psystar open computer, which I bought over 6 months ago, has excellent parts in it and is much better assembled than most of the Macs I've owned. It's a very clean computer and runs OS X flawlessly. Why doesn't the $3000 Mac pro run flawlessly? Oh, I guess I got the one computer Apple built in China that didn't come out right.

So what you're telling me is that not only are you breaking Apple's copyright and EULA by owning a Psystar (assuming you do) you are also breaking Psystar's own EULA that requires you to use their servers to update OS X in the machines they sell. That puts you doubly in the red. And as I previously said, assuming you even own the computers you claim, it's quite obvious that you never even tried to get your Mac repaired properly. Your own statements are so contradictory to each other that your credibility is nil. The only reason I respond to your noise is because I refuse to let you have the last word in this thread where someone else might, somehow, believe you.

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MacWorld has nothing to do with Apple? Then where does the word MAC come from? This is obviously a demented Apple fanatic or an Apple employee trying to make excuses for the fact that now that the entire Country is in a recession, Apple is in trouble with it's pricing policy and Steve Jobs no longer has the "Balls" to get up in front of an audience of followers and try to justify the extremely poor job Apple has done in delivering an inexpensive "Quality" Mac to the masses. Sorry, the iMac and the Mac Cube are not like owning a mini tower or any decent upgradable computer. Apple Fails!! It will cost the buyer $2000 to get a real Mac, that has real upgradable capability. Even then, you're never going to upgrade the logic board. Your wonderful Mac will be in your life for 5 years max, and then be outdated. Please don't right in about your wonderful G4 or G5 that you got lucky with and still own. They're both slower than my $500 Psystar and are obsolete machines.

Ok, let me say this again: MacWorld was not initiated by Apple in any sense of the word. Just because Apple created the computers the trade show celebrates doesn't mean they had anything to do with starting that show. As such, the rest of this paragraph is pure bunk. Oh, and just for your information, if Apple is so poor and so grossly too expensive as you so like to claim, why were Apple computers four of the top five computers sold by Amazon; going up against almost a dozen different netbooks that cost a quarter of the price?

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As far as the past, and the clones. People can figure this out by themselves without hearing psycho-babble. If Apple put restrictions on the clone-makers it's because Apple was selling crap machines and they didn't want the clone-maker to beat their own models, which they did anyway.

Did you ever read their "restrictions" list? It's obvious you know nothing about the old Apple clones or the Apples themselves of that time. If you had priced the components that met or exceeded their minimums, you would have found out that you would have been lucky to make about 5% profit per machine after parts and labor and still undercutting by roughly $100. I looked. I tried. In my case, the profit was too low to even consider licensing. It just wasn't worth my effort.

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Apple would not exist today if it were not for the iPod. So, I guess all you fanatics can dance around the iPod and applaud that a crappy computer maker finally made something people wanted.

Again you're wrong. I'll grant that the iPod helped generate more sales, but Apple had already made its turnaround before the iPod was ever developed. This puts the lie to your "crappy computer" statement.

I like the Apple design and I like their current OS X, but their computers are nothing to get cult crazy over. They're OK, and that's being generous.

The "Cult of Apple" is far older than OS X and even older than the Mac itself. One thing that was recognized by Apple users from the beginning is that the Apple was always easier to use in the long run and more reliable as well. Until recently, only Apple ever built a computer that could essentially repair itself if the OS ever bombed so completely that it would force a reinstall. Even now, only Apple has a built-in transfer utility that only requires a simple unenhanced Firewire or USB cable to migrate your user information from an older machine to a new one and by the same method even use the old one as an external hard drive without modification. Vista's "Migration Wizard" requires a special cable or extensive disk-swapping or external hard drive to complete effectively; forcing an extra purchase and increased cost for the average user.
Yes, there's a reason the Cult of Apple exists: Apple makes things easier to use than their competition.

And BTW, I've called Apple many times about my Mac Pro and I'm not getting any GREAT assistance. I do get 3rd world customer support every time I call. What I've always found with Apple, is that if you have a major problem they'll help fix it, if you're within the first year or you buy their over-priced Apple Care. But the strange stuff that I have encountered on my Macs, they don't want to mess with. It's always, "Reset the SMU, Zap the PRAM, and Pray."

You will probably not excuse me if I choose to disagree. Even assuming that what you claim is true, it becomes obvious that you didn't follow procedures or that you chose not to purchase "Apple Care" before your 1-year factory warranty ran out, which would have extended that warranty to three years. It becomes obvious from your belligerent attitude here that any calls you made to Apple were probably combative in nature, which immediately puts any technical support personnel on the defensive and tends to be counter-productive when trying to get something done. I will repeat that in my own case, I have NEVER, EVER, connected to an offshore tech support person when calling Apple for advice or support.

Now you can spend another half-a-day looking through Mac World so you can make another stupid tirade, and in the meantime I continue to use my Psystar computers with great success. So, berate all you want. After all, you paid Apple enough money for the right to do it. Maybe someday you'll get a real job and you won't have to be their biatch anymore.

Why should I spend half a day looking for it when your own comments come directly to me in email? You think I'm stupid or something? Obviously you are if that's what you're having to do to generate these rants.

[Chris Breen]

Moderation alert:

This has gotten way too personal. If the two of you would like to slag each other, please take advantage of the forum's private message feature. Further name calling is unwelcome and will be dealt with.

[vulpine]

Chris Breen said:

Moderation alert:

This has gotten way too personal. If the two of you would like to slag each other, please take advantage of the forum's private message feature. Further name calling is unwelcome and will be dealt with.

My apologies to you, Chris. I shouldn't let emotion color my comments. I have attempted and will resume attempting to stick to facts and opinions as I understand them and avoid any further name calling.

[Chris Breen]

Thank you. I look forward to jman's cooperation as well.

[Graphos]

[quote name='vulpine']
>

Chris Breen said:

> Moderation alert:
>
> This has gotten way too personal. If the two of you would like to slag each other, please take advantage of the forum's private message feature. Further name calling is unwelcome and will be dealt with.

My apologies to you, Chris. I shouldn't let emotion color my comments. I have attempted and will resume attempting to stick to facts and opinions as I understand them and avoid any further name calling.

I agree with your point of view, but I think you are wasting your time thou. 18 pages of replies have not brought our good friend it to realizing that what Psystar is doing, is not only morally reprehensible but apparently also illegal. The counter suite by Psystar has already been tossed out by a judge.

The quality of Psystar's merchandize is irrelevant. What is relevant is if what they are doing can be permitted. If that is the case, then people can put together their own Nintendo Wii from parts and sell them in the open market as a Wii alternative for a profit. Or a Sony PS3, or XBox, or Palm or Garmin GPS. You name it.

I don't think Sony would like me to reverse engineer the Sony PS3 only to sell knockoffs of it. Sure this is a bit different, but the same principal should apply.

My point is that even if Psystar made better computers then Apple, which I simply can't not believe for one second, it doesn't really matter, what matters is that they are baking the law and they should be stopped.

[jman3001]

To all Mac owners that are tired of the Apple game, you can buy the Psystar computers as much as you like "Legally" until such time that a Court tells Psystar they can't sell computers with OS X installed on them. Then, Psystar will probably just sell you the computer and give the owner the ability to install the EFI Boot to the PC to make it compatible with OS X.
Beyond that you can go to:
www.efi-x.com/index.php?language=english
You can simply buy a USB EFI-X module that will allow you to build your own PC with OS X capabilities that will give you a Quad Core unit with CPU speeds up to 3.9 Ghz. These machines not only give you a lot more computer for your money, but beat Mac Pro 8-Cores in speed for most applications. The cost is under $1800 purchased from EFI-X, but you can probably build your own for around $1200. You can buy the parts at Fry's or NewEgg and a variety of vendors on the internet.
The trend, until Apple changes it's business practices and starts thinking about the consumer needs, will be to simply run OS X on a PC motherboard, which quite frankly, beats the Apple Logic Boards, which have proven to be very average.

[vulpine]

jman3001 said:

To all Mac owners that are tired of the Apple game, you can buy the Psystar computers as much as you like "Legally" until such time that a Court tells Psystar they can't sell computers with OS X installed on them. Then, Psystar will probably just sell you the computer and give the owner the ability to install the EFI Boot to the PC to make it compatible with OS X.

Beyond that you can go to:
www.efi-x.com/index.php?language=english

You can simply buy a USB EFI-X module that will allow you to build your own PC with OS X capabilities that will give you a Quad Core unit with CPU speeds up to 3.9 Ghz. These machines not only give you a lot more computer for your money, but beat Mac Pro 8-Cores in speed for most applications. The cost is under $1800 purchased from EFI-X, but you can probably build your own for around $1200. You can buy the parts at Fry's or NewEgg and a variety of vendors on the internet.

The trend, until Apple changes it's business practices and starts thinking about the consumer needs, will be to simply run OS X on a PC motherboard, which quite frankly, beats the Apple Logic Boards, which have proven to be very average.

This time I have no need to argue with you, jman. You're talking sense with saying it's an option rather than claiming it's the best choice. On the other hand, the efi dongle you linked to is really the better choice if you're wanting to run a Hackintosh because YOU control the quality of the components in the machine, not Psystar. This alone means that a home-built Hackintosh is likely to be far superior in quality to what every legitimate review of the Psystar machines claim. This is the way I would go if I wanted to build my own Mac clone today.

In my own case, however, I much prefer the simplicity and convenience of the genuine Apple computer. You still cannot build an all-in-one machine as elegant and compact as the current iMac and honestly I can see the conventional desktop computer as we've seen them for the last 30 years going the way of the building-sized mainframes of 50 years ago.

While there will still be some need for desktop computers in the foreseeable future, new computing technologies likely will make future models as much a throwaway item as today's VCRs and televisions. Rather than repairing or upgrading the internals, you just recycle it and buy a new one for less than the repair itself might cost. The netbooks are an obvious example of this technology today and I expect Apple to make the netbook obsolete before the end of this year.