Sign In
Register
Help
Wow...I've never seen a poster quite like lin2log....
First off, I have to address one thing you said...when I mentioned having to get back to your work, you're response - "Mmmh-hmmm... yeah. Right. :-))))" - see, I actually run a production company. I use the tools we've been talking about everyday - lin2log, what do you do when you not being a rabble-rouser on this website?
Second - About Encore...your words - "So Encore does BD AUTHORING does it? LOL... so now "authoring" is reduced to the mere capability of burning to a BD, nothing more." So not true....It is true that it doesn't do BD-J, as you pointed out, but it certianly does more then what you want to give it credit for. Maybe menus, buttons, pop up menus, etc. aren't enough for you - do you have clients asking for BD-J features? I don't - not one client of mine has ever asked a Blu-Ray DVD for delivery. And I've been asking others in my field for some time now where I live if they have - so far, no one has. So - do I care that Encore doesn't do BD-J? No - but I may later...and I'm sure Adobe will address it in CS5 - if the market shows that's what the users want and need.
Oh, and I didn't even mention the GREAT feature of exporting a DVD project as a Flash file...that feature alone is worth having Encore for. I've used it for client review, and it's something that I love. You think your new version of DVD SP will have that?
Okay, what's next? Oh yeah - the "So you're reading comprehension is = 0" comment...nice. Very nice. Where are we - on the playground?
Okay - I'm going just move past the "native" arguement. See - P2, XDCAM, and RED files can be brought into PPro without a little QT or AVI bow wrapped around them. FCP needs that QT wrapper. That's a fact - you can't argue that. Maybe that wrapper does something to the file, maybe it doesn't. The point is - the one I was trying to make all along - you can't just drag the MXF or RED files in - they need to be Quicktime. So, let's just leave it at that.
Next in regards to a comment about Shake - "And instead of simply staying OT, you slip in some completely extraneous jab about it's pricing history. Huh?? One word: straws' - was it extraneous? Really? Re-Read post 21...your words - "If anything, that's what you'll want to be comparing to AE... for a fraction of the cost by the way." Gotcha!
I realize you are amazed that Adobe would attempt to compete in the Mac market, seeing how you feel that FCP owns it. But I think Adobe has a product worthy of taking on FCP on it's turf. Maybe you don't. Well, feel free to think that way. And maybe Adobe does have to play catch-up on the Mac. FCP may have a million users out there, but PPro (from what I've read) have a lot more - not all on Macs, mind you, but total users. I'd really like to come back to this website in a year from now, and see if the Mac and FCP community as softened at all in regards to PPro.
I know that a lot of people, FCP users included, are very excited to hear about PPro's native support - and this really is native support - of the RED camera. Now I'm sure Apple will release something that will compete with this - at least I hope they would if they want to compete. But my point is, PPro is only getting better, and people are starting to take a look at it as an option when working on a Mac. If Apple moves slow on RED support, and Hollywood embraces it as a format, PPro could be showing up as the editor of choice for RED shot projects.
Finally I would really encourage you spend some time over at the Adobe site and really get informed about what the software can and can't do before you start posting stuff about it...just a helpful piece of advice. I'll even give you a link -
www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/production/
Now, it's time to get back to work....
Premiere leads the changes to Adobe?s video apps
MultiQuote
#44
lin2log 
- Member
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 179
- Joined: 12-January 06
Posted 24 September 2008 - 10:34 AM
I'm amazed at how unabashed you actually repeat the same complete NONSENSE (which it automatically becomes when repeated that many times), even tho you refuted your own claim with your own link! :-D That's brilliant.
Oh yeah. Idiot me. I completely forgot that DVD SP doesn't do ANY of that. Damn.
But again, I find it interesting how you constantly move the whole thing as far away from the actual subject, Premiere, as quickly as possible. Cause I ultimately don't really give a flying poo about Encore. When I have BD work to be done, I sure as hell am not giving it to some ENCORE user. :-)))) Until DVD SP supports BD natively I'm obviously giving that sort of thing to other PROs, with e.g. a Sonic system, thanks.
Seriously. That line is getting SO old and SO embarrassing for you. You can't possibly be THAT thick.
Do you actually not realize that with as many sources there are on the net (starting with Apple themselves, as I have said before) that will clearly tell you that there is ZERO difference between that QT and the NATIVE file, how painfully stupid that line appears, no?
And you can't wrap your head around the fact that there is ZERO difference. Especially not in respect to your most amazingly sad straw yet: time. I'm starting to realize that you obviously know that if you WERE to go and look around the net for even a mere 20 seconds, you'd find that out and have to deconstruct your only (contrived) "argument" and be left with nothing to throw around over and over and over again... but I think you've proven after that many repeats you don't actually have the maraca's for that.
Paaahahahahahaaa... you SO wish, don't you? :-D
Yet another nice example for my obviously precise assessment of your reading comprehension skills. Sorry.
But I think Adobe has a product worthy of taking on FCP on it's turf. Maybe you don't. Well, feel free to think that way. [?] but PPro (from what I've read) have a lot more - not all on Macs, mind you, but total users.
Wow... your best shot yet. Bravo. I hope you have spare feet for the next ones. You're running out quick.
Whatever your source is: change it. Quick. (how ironic you should have READ it, too! :-D)
I really hate to burst your bubble there, but as opposed to you, I don't "think that way", I try to KNOW more...
http://tinyurl.com/3mp6rm
"It's no secret that Final Cut is popular with the "Sundance crowd", with an 80% market share of independents. But significantly, in the past year Final Cut accounted for 49% of new NLE sales to the Broadcast and Post market (Avid runs second with 22%)"
http://tinyurl.com/5vrwx7
"According to research specialist SCRI, in 2007 Apple took 49% of the US professional editing marketing with Avid trailing on just 22%."
Need more?
And no, reeeeeeally sorry, but that's NOT just the Mac-market. And I trust at least your math-skills are sufficient enough to do the math on that one, yes? And I think it's pretty safe to say that (being very conservative) roughly 10% of the rest goes to "other", no? Therefore you realize what PPro is left with, right?
And funny. For such an up-and-coming system as you say, you're amazingly hard pressed to find ANY mention of Premiere anywhere in combination with i.e. NAB or IBC, other than their oh-so-timely support of RED that is... :-D Gee, wonder why?
Stings, don't it?
I know that a lot of people, FCP users included, we're very excited to hear about PPro's native support - and this really is native support - of the RED camera. Now I'm sure Apple will release something that will compete with this - at least I hope they would if they want to compete. But my point is, PPro is only getting better, and people are starting to take a look at it as an option when working on a Mac. If Apple moves slow on RED support, and Hollywood embraces it as a format, PPro could be showing up as the editor of choice for RED shot projects.
OMG!! There goes the last foot!! Let me give you just a TINY tip: at least spend a minimum of ONE minute on the net getting some actual FACTS on things before you talk about that you obviously no clue whatsoever about. You obviously have NO idea what amazing drivel that is! :-))))
You don't even know that Apple has supported the REDCODE RAW codec for over a YEAR now! Hellooo? That they in fact were the first and only to do so! Wow... and Premiere announced their support at IBC a WEEK ago! LOL!
I'm sorry... were you just saying "if APPLE moves slow on RED support"?? :-D
Ow... you just so totally outed yourself, sorry. Remember what I said about you making it so easy for me to be right? I rest my case.
I know, the fact that people like Peter Jackson, The Coen Bros., Steven Soderberg, Francis Ford Coppola and 20th Century Fox edit on FCP, and of course my editing a feature for HBO on Final Cut with Stephen Hopkins most definitely points to FCP being just a niche product, and that of all places, clearly Hollywood isn't the least bit interested in. You are SO right!!
And unfortunately somewhat delusional, sorry. But I understand: the straws.
Odd that I can't find any such references for PPro in that direction... how's that?
Finally I would really encourage you spend some time over at the Adobe site
:-)) Cute. You obviously are the one that needs a little education on what's really going on OUTSIDE of your Adobe site. Say for example Apple or RED? StudioDaily? The fact alone that you have only been able to provide a whopping ONE link that in fact didn't even support but rather REFUTED your own claim, as opposed to the plethora that I have and could provide, pretty much speaks volumes, no?
I think we can stop now, thank you... "just a helpful piece of advice".
eaddison said:
Maybe menus, buttons, pop up menus, etc. aren't enough for you -
Oh yeah. Idiot me. I completely forgot that DVD SP doesn't do ANY of that. Damn.
But again, I find it interesting how you constantly move the whole thing as far away from the actual subject, Premiere, as quickly as possible. Cause I ultimately don't really give a flying poo about Encore. When I have BD work to be done, I sure as hell am not giving it to some ENCORE user. :-)))) Until DVD SP supports BD natively I'm obviously giving that sort of thing to other PROs, with e.g. a Sonic system, thanks.
Quote
FCP needs that QT wrapper.
Seriously. That line is getting SO old and SO embarrassing for you. You can't possibly be THAT thick.
Quote
Maybe that wrapper does something to the file, maybe it doesn't.
Do you actually not realize that with as many sources there are on the net (starting with Apple themselves, as I have said before) that will clearly tell you that there is ZERO difference between that QT and the NATIVE file, how painfully stupid that line appears, no?
Quote
you can't just drag the MXF or RED files in - they need to be Quicktime. So, let's just leave it at that.
And you can't wrap your head around the fact that there is ZERO difference. Especially not in respect to your most amazingly sad straw yet: time. I'm starting to realize that you obviously know that if you WERE to go and look around the net for even a mere 20 seconds, you'd find that out and have to deconstruct your only (contrived) "argument" and be left with nothing to throw around over and over and over again... but I think you've proven after that many repeats you don't actually have the maraca's for that.
Quote
"If anything, that's what you'll want to be comparing to AE... for a fraction of the cost by the way." Gotcha!
Paaahahahahahaaa... you SO wish, don't you? :-D
Yet another nice example for my obviously precise assessment of your reading comprehension skills. Sorry.
But I think Adobe has a product worthy of taking on FCP on it's turf. Maybe you don't. Well, feel free to think that way. [?] but PPro (from what I've read) have a lot more - not all on Macs, mind you, but total users.
Wow... your best shot yet. Bravo. I hope you have spare feet for the next ones. You're running out quick.
Whatever your source is: change it. Quick. (how ironic you should have READ it, too! :-D)
I really hate to burst your bubble there, but as opposed to you, I don't "think that way", I try to KNOW more...
http://tinyurl.com/3mp6rm
"It's no secret that Final Cut is popular with the "Sundance crowd", with an 80% market share of independents. But significantly, in the past year Final Cut accounted for 49% of new NLE sales to the Broadcast and Post market (Avid runs second with 22%)"
http://tinyurl.com/5vrwx7
"According to research specialist SCRI, in 2007 Apple took 49% of the US professional editing marketing with Avid trailing on just 22%."
Need more?
And no, reeeeeeally sorry, but that's NOT just the Mac-market. And I trust at least your math-skills are sufficient enough to do the math on that one, yes? And I think it's pretty safe to say that (being very conservative) roughly 10% of the rest goes to "other", no? Therefore you realize what PPro is left with, right?
And funny. For such an up-and-coming system as you say, you're amazingly hard pressed to find ANY mention of Premiere anywhere in combination with i.e. NAB or IBC, other than their oh-so-timely support of RED that is... :-D Gee, wonder why?
Stings, don't it?
I know that a lot of people, FCP users included, we're very excited to hear about PPro's native support - and this really is native support - of the RED camera. Now I'm sure Apple will release something that will compete with this - at least I hope they would if they want to compete. But my point is, PPro is only getting better, and people are starting to take a look at it as an option when working on a Mac. If Apple moves slow on RED support, and Hollywood embraces it as a format, PPro could be showing up as the editor of choice for RED shot projects.
OMG!! There goes the last foot!! Let me give you just a TINY tip: at least spend a minimum of ONE minute on the net getting some actual FACTS on things before you talk about that you obviously no clue whatsoever about. You obviously have NO idea what amazing drivel that is! :-))))
You don't even know that Apple has supported the REDCODE RAW codec for over a YEAR now! Hellooo? That they in fact were the first and only to do so! Wow... and Premiere announced their support at IBC a WEEK ago! LOL!
I'm sorry... were you just saying "if APPLE moves slow on RED support"?? :-D
Ow... you just so totally outed yourself, sorry. Remember what I said about you making it so easy for me to be right? I rest my case.
I know, the fact that people like Peter Jackson, The Coen Bros., Steven Soderberg, Francis Ford Coppola and 20th Century Fox edit on FCP, and of course my editing a feature for HBO on Final Cut with Stephen Hopkins most definitely points to FCP being just a niche product, and that of all places, clearly Hollywood isn't the least bit interested in. You are SO right!!
And unfortunately somewhat delusional, sorry. But I understand: the straws.
Odd that I can't find any such references for PPro in that direction... how's that?
Finally I would really encourage you spend some time over at the Adobe site
:-)) Cute. You obviously are the one that needs a little education on what's really going on OUTSIDE of your Adobe site. Say for example Apple or RED? StudioDaily? The fact alone that you have only been able to provide a whopping ONE link that in fact didn't even support but rather REFUTED your own claim, as opposed to the plethora that I have and could provide, pretty much speaks volumes, no?
I think we can stop now, thank you... "just a helpful piece of advice".
#45
eaddison
- Newbie
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 10
- Joined: 23-September 08
Posted 24 September 2008 - 06:36 PM
I've got one more post in me, then I'm out...
In regards to the menus and buttons comment, forgive me for assuming (my mistake) that you knew I was speaking of Encore's Blu-Ray support. Of course DVD SP has that support for SD projects...but not for Blu-Ray it doesn't. That's because DVD SP doesn't support Blu-Ray. The next version most likely will - but for now, it doesn't.
True or False...when you import an XDCAM or P2 file, a new QT file is made from the MXF file?
The answer...true. And that's been my point all along. FCP works with QT files, and in order to edit anything, the video (or file) must be converted to a QT file. The point I was trying to make this whole time was that none of that is needed in PPro - it works with just the MXF file. Maybe the way to say it is Final Cut can convert the MXF video/audio into an editable QT file, while PPro (and Avid) just need the MXF file. Would you say that FCP is REALLY native based on that? Kind of...It can HANDLE the native MXF file, but it can't edit it. And yes, I realize that the resulting QT file is no different then the MXF - at least I hope it's not...but then, I'm no programmer, just a filmmaker.
"Paaahahahahahaaa... you SO wish, don't you? :-D Yet another nice example for my obviously precise assessment of your reading comprehension skills. Sorry."
It's at this point where I think I'm dealing with a crazy person - I completely explained why the reference was made after you said it was...oh, never mind. I shouldn't even have to explain this.
On to RED support. Again, my mistake for not making myself more clear. I know full well that FCP has RED support. They had it first. But again - the files must be converted to QT. With PPro, just import the .r3d file and you're editing. And the support is FAR better then what FCP currently has. Don't believe me... watch for yourself.
blogs.adobe.com/davtechtable/2008/08/new[ured[/u]cameraadobesupport_1.html]
or check this out: [http://www.studiodaily.com/blog/?p=622]
Still don't believe me? Head over to the reduser.net forum and check out what others have to say...THAT is what I was referring to when I mentioned Apple has got to respond.
Lastly, your NLE sales figures. Look at the figures you gave me, and look what I said. Apple has stated there are just over a million FCP users out there (based on sales). You provided figures for the professional broadcast and post market. I won't dispute that Avid and FCP do rule those markets. But what about the small indie production company - the guy who just shoots weddings or small events, the small corporate video production house. While I'm sure a lot of them use FCP, there are a lot that use PPro. Are they included in those numbers? Remember, there are a lot more Windows machines out there then Macs.
Now, if you're just counting what's being used on the Mac - well, then of course, FCP would win that easily.
And with that, I'm done...it's been fun. Good luck to you...and God be with the rest of those on these forum pages who have to deal with your posts!
In regards to the menus and buttons comment, forgive me for assuming (my mistake) that you knew I was speaking of Encore's Blu-Ray support. Of course DVD SP has that support for SD projects...but not for Blu-Ray it doesn't. That's because DVD SP doesn't support Blu-Ray. The next version most likely will - but for now, it doesn't.
True or False...when you import an XDCAM or P2 file, a new QT file is made from the MXF file?
The answer...true. And that's been my point all along. FCP works with QT files, and in order to edit anything, the video (or file) must be converted to a QT file. The point I was trying to make this whole time was that none of that is needed in PPro - it works with just the MXF file. Maybe the way to say it is Final Cut can convert the MXF video/audio into an editable QT file, while PPro (and Avid) just need the MXF file. Would you say that FCP is REALLY native based on that? Kind of...It can HANDLE the native MXF file, but it can't edit it. And yes, I realize that the resulting QT file is no different then the MXF - at least I hope it's not...but then, I'm no programmer, just a filmmaker.
"Paaahahahahahaaa... you SO wish, don't you? :-D Yet another nice example for my obviously precise assessment of your reading comprehension skills. Sorry."
It's at this point where I think I'm dealing with a crazy person - I completely explained why the reference was made after you said it was...oh, never mind. I shouldn't even have to explain this.
On to RED support. Again, my mistake for not making myself more clear. I know full well that FCP has RED support. They had it first. But again - the files must be converted to QT. With PPro, just import the .r3d file and you're editing. And the support is FAR better then what FCP currently has. Don't believe me... watch for yourself.
blogs.adobe.com/davtechtable/2008/08/new[ured[/u]cameraadobesupport_1.html]
or check this out: [http://www.studiodaily.com/blog/?p=622]
Still don't believe me? Head over to the reduser.net forum and check out what others have to say...THAT is what I was referring to when I mentioned Apple has got to respond.
Lastly, your NLE sales figures. Look at the figures you gave me, and look what I said. Apple has stated there are just over a million FCP users out there (based on sales). You provided figures for the professional broadcast and post market. I won't dispute that Avid and FCP do rule those markets. But what about the small indie production company - the guy who just shoots weddings or small events, the small corporate video production house. While I'm sure a lot of them use FCP, there are a lot that use PPro. Are they included in those numbers? Remember, there are a lot more Windows machines out there then Macs.
Now, if you're just counting what's being used on the Mac - well, then of course, FCP would win that easily.
And with that, I'm done...it's been fun. Good luck to you...and God be with the rest of those on these forum pages who have to deal with your posts!
#46
lin2log
- Member
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 179
- Joined: 12-January 06
Posted 25 September 2008 - 07:04 AM
Wow... what an unfortunate way to go. Rarely seen anyone flip-flop so desperately for the sake of sucking the last teeeeeny bit of argumentation (barely) possible, as his self proclaimed last breath.
Whatever, really. You go right ahead and actually think that people are going to somehow flock to PPro merely for the reason that they want to edit 4K RAW FILES from a RED camera. Yeeeeaaaah... uh-huh, I'm with you on that one. And off course that's your daily bread and butter and that of so many of your "Pro" buddies, too, since that is so important to you and the only thing you've been able to bring forth til now that COULD actually be of relevance... to about 0.004% of all editors on the planet. You SO got me there... I give up.
And yes, of course, every other format that FCP works with is nothing CLOSE to native. At least up until you grasp the basics of how MACS work and not PCs. Seeing that MAC files have things called "type" and "creator" not some DOS-level suffixes that determine things, sorry.
But I'm sure, in your world, a RTF file created with i.e. TextEdit is something completely and altogether different than an RTF created in Word or maybe BBEdit. Or a standard (ISO) MPEG-4 movie being nothing even close to a standard (ISO) MPEG-4 movie created in, say, the WMP or VLC or whatever else... cause hey... it has a different suffix and a different container!! On top of it all you of course know exactly what you're talking about and not just GUESSING. And obviously Apple's writing "NATIVE" repeatedly on their site is unquestionably just smoke and mirrors and blatant PR lies.
Of course on the other hand you suddenly argue for indie's? Again (and as usual) totally ignoring actual facts that I quoted e.g. the article reading "with an 80% market share of independents". Then wonderfully digressing into the world of wedding videographers for the sake of yet another straw.
One can at least not accuse you of being inconsistent.
Oh wait, they must be 4K wedding videographers! :-))))
Really?? You mean similar to how many other NLE's are available for PC ONLY and are used (Pinnicle, Vegas etc. etc.), but still don't even make the smallest dent in the statistics? PPro has them to fight, too, remember?
And yes, I'm in fact quite sure that the majority of PC WEDDING videographers use Premiere next to Pinnicle, Ulead somethingorothers. What was it you do again?
Also, I'm reeeeeally sorry, but skipping the fact that I already wrote that those numbers are NOT just Mac doesn't change the facts either. As much as I'm sure you wish it would... as with the "container"-subject.
And again you show your utter lack of knowledge of the subject of RED by writing such "the files must be converted to QT" nonsense (over and over and over and over and over and...). I suggest (AGAIN) you try actually informing yourself ahead of time to save yourself the usual embarrassment. Here
http://red.cachefly....ed-mythbust.m4v
Now you don't even have to act like you don't know how Google works. :-D Oh... and I highly recommend listening veeeeery carefully to what Ted from Red Digital has to say the very moment the title "Final Cut 'VIEWER'" comes in. But be sure to brace yourself first. Then understand THAT workflow and then go back to your plugin for PPro and compare.
Well then... was a real blast there, chief, cheers!
And don't worry, even you are sure to get it one day!
Whatever, really. You go right ahead and actually think that people are going to somehow flock to PPro merely for the reason that they want to edit 4K RAW FILES from a RED camera. Yeeeeaaaah... uh-huh, I'm with you on that one. And off course that's your daily bread and butter and that of so many of your "Pro" buddies, too, since that is so important to you and the only thing you've been able to bring forth til now that COULD actually be of relevance... to about 0.004% of all editors on the planet. You SO got me there... I give up.
And yes, of course, every other format that FCP works with is nothing CLOSE to native. At least up until you grasp the basics of how MACS work and not PCs. Seeing that MAC files have things called "type" and "creator" not some DOS-level suffixes that determine things, sorry.
But I'm sure, in your world, a RTF file created with i.e. TextEdit is something completely and altogether different than an RTF created in Word or maybe BBEdit. Or a standard (ISO) MPEG-4 movie being nothing even close to a standard (ISO) MPEG-4 movie created in, say, the WMP or VLC or whatever else... cause hey... it has a different suffix and a different container!! On top of it all you of course know exactly what you're talking about and not just GUESSING. And obviously Apple's writing "NATIVE" repeatedly on their site is unquestionably just smoke and mirrors and blatant PR lies.
Of course on the other hand you suddenly argue for indie's? Again (and as usual) totally ignoring actual facts that I quoted e.g. the article reading "with an 80% market share of independents". Then wonderfully digressing into the world of wedding videographers for the sake of yet another straw.
One can at least not accuse you of being inconsistent.
Oh wait, they must be 4K wedding videographers! :-))))
Quote
Remember, there are a lot more Windows machines out there then Macs.
Really?? You mean similar to how many other NLE's are available for PC ONLY and are used (Pinnicle, Vegas etc. etc.), but still don't even make the smallest dent in the statistics? PPro has them to fight, too, remember?
And yes, I'm in fact quite sure that the majority of PC WEDDING videographers use Premiere next to Pinnicle, Ulead somethingorothers. What was it you do again?
Also, I'm reeeeeally sorry, but skipping the fact that I already wrote that those numbers are NOT just Mac doesn't change the facts either. As much as I'm sure you wish it would... as with the "container"-subject.
And again you show your utter lack of knowledge of the subject of RED by writing such "the files must be converted to QT" nonsense (over and over and over and over and over and...). I suggest (AGAIN) you try actually informing yourself ahead of time to save yourself the usual embarrassment. Here
http://red.cachefly....ed-mythbust.m4v
Now you don't even have to act like you don't know how Google works. :-D Oh... and I highly recommend listening veeeeery carefully to what Ted from Red Digital has to say the very moment the title "Final Cut 'VIEWER'" comes in. But be sure to brace yourself first. Then understand THAT workflow and then go back to your plugin for PPro and compare.
Well then... was a real blast there, chief, cheers!
And don't worry, even you are sure to get it one day!
#47
haim_vital
- Member
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 15-September 05
Posted 25 September 2008 - 08:49 AM
Lin, dude...whats up?
Its o.k. for people to have a preference and opinion different than yours. ;)
I have been a Final Cut user since before you were born. (j/k) lol.
Seriously though, I have edited with Final Cut since the beginning - (at least with Apple...not when it was owned by Macromedia.)
Im was certified on both the Final Cut and Avid systems.
I have seen Autodesk editing & effects stations in action (talking sweet power...there you go.) :)
Along with those, I have also worked with and known premiere long before I worked with the others.
(Well that and Avid.)
I have liked Final Cut Pro all the way...guess I was a zealot about the software much like you sound now. ;)
But I have to say, there is something to having all your software from one vendor. Having an integrated workflow, etc.
Now, I would love nothing more than Apple to come out with a Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Flash, etc.
- I know, sounds like a jack of all trades master of none...really, its called years go by and you get old enough to learn most of this stuff...to a certain degree anyway. Its about art...and the tools dont define or limit us to one area. ;)
Point is...with what I have seen of the interface of Premiere (I have never liked Premiers interface ever since Final Cut came out), I can now say it looks pro. It integrates with Adobes other apps...and has some things that Final Cut doesnt do yet. (And quite frankly, Im a bit surprised this one time leader has fallen into the follower. The iphone must have dragged them down to Microsoft quality level. lol )
The fact that they dont support Blu-Ray?
I mean really. In the real world, people are still renting DVDS and Blu Ray disc...and will in the foreseeable future.
Just because ol' Stevo wants everyone to download movies and then just wipe it off their harddrive laters cause they run out of room, doesnt mean that is what everyone else wants.
A pro app needs to give the pro business its tools.
Also, AVCHD should be native support already.
Honestly, the concept is to speed up the transfer, not have it take longer than digitizing from tape.
Whats up with that Apple?
Premiere now seems to at least hit that spot as well.
Point being, this is not about jumping ship.
Im sure Apple will drag their butts to finally getting these basic features implemented into their software.
Mind you, I was an Apple zealot...but not to the extent of making excuses or being blind to when they start lagging behind.
And again, the integration factor is a key thing for me.
I really dig Final Cut Pro...but if Premiere is what its looking like it has the potential to be upon release...there is a strong case in getting it.
Just wish they would have made A.E. and Flash one product. But thats just me, and as I said, we both are welcome to our opinions.
Peace
Its o.k. for people to have a preference and opinion different than yours. ;)
I have been a Final Cut user since before you were born. (j/k) lol.
Seriously though, I have edited with Final Cut since the beginning - (at least with Apple...not when it was owned by Macromedia.)
Im was certified on both the Final Cut and Avid systems.
I have seen Autodesk editing & effects stations in action (talking sweet power...there you go.) :)
Along with those, I have also worked with and known premiere long before I worked with the others.
(Well that and Avid.)
I have liked Final Cut Pro all the way...guess I was a zealot about the software much like you sound now. ;)
But I have to say, there is something to having all your software from one vendor. Having an integrated workflow, etc.
Now, I would love nothing more than Apple to come out with a Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Flash, etc.
- I know, sounds like a jack of all trades master of none...really, its called years go by and you get old enough to learn most of this stuff...to a certain degree anyway. Its about art...and the tools dont define or limit us to one area. ;)
Point is...with what I have seen of the interface of Premiere (I have never liked Premiers interface ever since Final Cut came out), I can now say it looks pro. It integrates with Adobes other apps...and has some things that Final Cut doesnt do yet. (And quite frankly, Im a bit surprised this one time leader has fallen into the follower. The iphone must have dragged them down to Microsoft quality level. lol )
The fact that they dont support Blu-Ray?
I mean really. In the real world, people are still renting DVDS and Blu Ray disc...and will in the foreseeable future.
Just because ol' Stevo wants everyone to download movies and then just wipe it off their harddrive laters cause they run out of room, doesnt mean that is what everyone else wants.
A pro app needs to give the pro business its tools.
Also, AVCHD should be native support already.
Honestly, the concept is to speed up the transfer, not have it take longer than digitizing from tape.
Whats up with that Apple?
Premiere now seems to at least hit that spot as well.
Point being, this is not about jumping ship.
Im sure Apple will drag their butts to finally getting these basic features implemented into their software.
Mind you, I was an Apple zealot...but not to the extent of making excuses or being blind to when they start lagging behind.
And again, the integration factor is a key thing for me.
I really dig Final Cut Pro...but if Premiere is what its looking like it has the potential to be upon release...there is a strong case in getting it.
Just wish they would have made A.E. and Flash one product. But thats just me, and as I said, we both are welcome to our opinions.
Peace
#48
lin2log
- Member
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 179
- Joined: 12-January 06
Posted 25 September 2008 - 11:04 AM
Cheers Haim. Thanks for the great post.
Very much so! I only react somewhat allergic when people make claims that are mere personal opinion, but try to sell it as some sort of "global truth", only because they simply don't know any better or don't even go to the trouble of actually CHECKING their "facts" before posting them. It's just annoying. I apologize, I swore to curb the sarcasm... ;)
Um... did ANYONE work with it when it belonged to Macromedia for that matter?! I doubt it... they couldn't even really figure out what the hell it was. :-D
Hmmm... I'm was? Interesting. ;)
But I'll tell you a secret... I'm an ACP, ACT and ADP... you figure em out. :)
I've even WORKED them and their time has passed... really.
If you read my other posts, then you'll see that Premiere was actually my first sofware NLE back in 91-92. I've successfully managed to stay (more or less) clear of AVIDs tho. Personally: been there, done that, don't EVER want to have to do it again.
I have liked Final Cut Pro all the way...guess I was a zealot about the software much like you sound now. ;)
But I have to say, there is something to having all your software from one vendor. Having an integrated workflow, etc.
Again, if you read my posts I do commend that to a certain degree with the Adobe suite, but at the same time se that Apple is getting very good at addressing that aspect and has actually surpassed Adobe in some area's, not in others.
Now, I would love nothing more than Apple to come out with a Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Flash, etc.
Ewww... not me. But a lot that they already have to offer is fine by me.
- I know, sounds like a jack of all trades master of none...really,
Yeah, that pretty much nails it.
its called years go by and you get old enough to learn most of this stuff...to a certain degree anyway. Its about art...and the tools dont define or limit us to one area. ;)
Well... yes and no. You still need to differentiate between what you WANT to do, what you CAN do, HOW you want ot do or expect to be able to do it, and what you're ASKED to do. Therefore there will NEVER be the ultimate tool. I've also said here that therefore every self-respecting and professional studio will have a WIDE array of tools.
Point is...with what I have seen of the interface of Premiere (I have never liked Premiers interface ever since Final Cut came out), I can now say it looks pro. It integrates with Adobes other apps...and has some things that Final Cut doesnt do yet.
Oh come on... seriously. That can be said of AVID or even VEGAS, too. And it'll always be that way. But that's at the same time exactly the point: how does it integrate... but OUTSIDE of it's own sandbox but mainly in it's own area (at least the one that's important to ME of course)? If some nifty integration/export from EVERYWHERE is important to me to a large degree, then I'm more apt to go for the Adobe suite. But if you ask ME, if you're focused on editing and authoring professional video, you go FCS and don't give a rat's ass about the Flash crap (like me) but rather give that to some other professional that takes care of that for you... and usually much better than some flimsy export command ever will.
>(And quite frankly, Im a bit surprised this one time leader has fallen into the follower. The iphone must have dragged them down to Microsoft quality level. lol )
You mean "follower" just because of BD?? After leading in as many area's as they have so far?? I think, for once, you may want to cut them SOME slack, no?
The fact that they dont support Blu-Ray?
Sucks. But is truly not the end of the world.
Just because ol' Stevo wants everyone to download movies and then just wipe it off their harddrive laters cause they run out of room, doesnt mean that is what everyone else wants.
That of course is pure conjecture. And honestly doesn't make a whole lotta sense if you consider that Apple supported HD-DVD before ANYone else and before it was even considered "THEE" medium. Which, as we know now, it isn't.
The whole online film thing MAY play a (very very small) part, sure, but everyone, including Apple, knows full well that they're not getting around adding BD-support (probably even in a bigger and better way than other's for that matter) at some point. I really also very much doubt that Apple thinks that people are THAT stupid not to tell or know the difference between online and the "real thing". Really.
Yes, who knows, it may very well be due to other priorities. But let's be realistic, okay. Apple is a company with STOCK and I think you know as well as I do that pissing off the iPhone user's at this time weighs MUCH heavier than a comparative few people wanting to author BD's. As much as we video pro's think that REALLY sucks. But BD support is slated for 10.5.6, so not all hope is lost. ;)
Also, AVCHD should be native support already.
Pro or not Pro? AVCHD is not Pro.
Honestly, the concept is to speed up the transfer, not have it take longer than digitizing from tape.
From the few times I've worked with AVCHD I can't say that I in any way can confirm that. The transcoding into ProRes (which is a superb idea when it comes to that stuff btw) is a multiple of real-time.
Premiere now seems to at least hit that spot as well.
Okay. If you say so. But again, like with the Flash thing, if that's actually of that much importance to you...
Point being, this is not about jumping ship.
Im sure Apple will drag their butts to finally getting these basic features implemented into their software.
Considering their position in the market, I'd say that's pretty much a given.
Mind you, I was an Apple zealot...but not to the extent of making excuses or being blind to when they start lagging behind.
Believe you me, I'm not in the business of making excuses. Especially not for the tools that I depend on to make me my money. BUT, I try not to get all huffy about the smallest of shortcomings (or maybe BIGGEST, depending on where you're looking at it, obviously). BD isn't that huge of an issue for me at the moment, so I'm cool. That what I need I have or can get, so what's the problem? I rather try to put things in to perspective and do best with what I have without spending too much time with whining. That doesn't get me anywhere. On the other hand, if Apple were to STILL lacking BD support in say 6 months or (god forbid) even a year, yeah I'd be VERY worried. But I seriouly doubt THAT'S gonna happen. Apple may occasionally be stubborn, but they ain't STUPID.
And again, the integration factor is a key thing for me.
I really dig Final Cut Pro...but if Premiere is what its looking like it has the potential to be upon release...there is a strong case in getting it.
All the power to ya! If it meets you needs better, why the hell not? You'd be an idiot not to. But honestly? That would mean that your work is FAR less in the area of professional post-production/editing like mine, but rather more of graphic nature.
Just wish they would have made A.E. and Flash one product. But thats just me, and as I said, we both are welcome to our opinions.
Eeeeewwwwww... NO friggen way. Besides, did you miss that AE wannabe app from Adobe that did nothing but Flash??! Damn... can't think of the name for the life of me.
cheers and stay creative! ;)
l2l
haim_vital said:
Its o.k. for people to have a preference and opinion different than yours. ;)
Very much so! I only react somewhat allergic when people make claims that are mere personal opinion, but try to sell it as some sort of "global truth", only because they simply don't know any better or don't even go to the trouble of actually CHECKING their "facts" before posting them. It's just annoying. I apologize, I swore to curb the sarcasm... ;)
Quote
I have been a Final Cut user since before you were born. (j/k) lol.
Seriously though, I have edited with Final Cut since the beginning - (at least with Apple...not when it was owned by Macromedia.)
Seriously though, I have edited with Final Cut since the beginning - (at least with Apple...not when it was owned by Macromedia.)
Um... did ANYONE work with it when it belonged to Macromedia for that matter?! I doubt it... they couldn't even really figure out what the hell it was. :-D
Quote
Im was certified on both the Final Cut and Avid systems.
Hmmm... I'm was? Interesting. ;)
But I'll tell you a secret... I'm an ACP, ACT and ADP... you figure em out. :)
Quote
I have seen Autodesk editing & effects stations in action (talking sweet power...there you go.)
I've even WORKED them and their time has passed... really.
Quote
Along with those, I have also worked with and known premiere long before I worked with the others.
If you read my other posts, then you'll see that Premiere was actually my first sofware NLE back in 91-92. I've successfully managed to stay (more or less) clear of AVIDs tho. Personally: been there, done that, don't EVER want to have to do it again.
I have liked Final Cut Pro all the way...guess I was a zealot about the software much like you sound now. ;)
But I have to say, there is something to having all your software from one vendor. Having an integrated workflow, etc.
Again, if you read my posts I do commend that to a certain degree with the Adobe suite, but at the same time se that Apple is getting very good at addressing that aspect and has actually surpassed Adobe in some area's, not in others.
Now, I would love nothing more than Apple to come out with a Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Flash, etc.
Ewww... not me. But a lot that they already have to offer is fine by me.
- I know, sounds like a jack of all trades master of none...really,
Yeah, that pretty much nails it.
its called years go by and you get old enough to learn most of this stuff...to a certain degree anyway. Its about art...and the tools dont define or limit us to one area. ;)
Well... yes and no. You still need to differentiate between what you WANT to do, what you CAN do, HOW you want ot do or expect to be able to do it, and what you're ASKED to do. Therefore there will NEVER be the ultimate tool. I've also said here that therefore every self-respecting and professional studio will have a WIDE array of tools.
Point is...with what I have seen of the interface of Premiere (I have never liked Premiers interface ever since Final Cut came out), I can now say it looks pro. It integrates with Adobes other apps...and has some things that Final Cut doesnt do yet.
Oh come on... seriously. That can be said of AVID or even VEGAS, too. And it'll always be that way. But that's at the same time exactly the point: how does it integrate... but OUTSIDE of it's own sandbox but mainly in it's own area (at least the one that's important to ME of course)? If some nifty integration/export from EVERYWHERE is important to me to a large degree, then I'm more apt to go for the Adobe suite. But if you ask ME, if you're focused on editing and authoring professional video, you go FCS and don't give a rat's ass about the Flash crap (like me) but rather give that to some other professional that takes care of that for you... and usually much better than some flimsy export command ever will.
>(And quite frankly, Im a bit surprised this one time leader has fallen into the follower. The iphone must have dragged them down to Microsoft quality level. lol )
You mean "follower" just because of BD?? After leading in as many area's as they have so far?? I think, for once, you may want to cut them SOME slack, no?
The fact that they dont support Blu-Ray?
Sucks. But is truly not the end of the world.
Just because ol' Stevo wants everyone to download movies and then just wipe it off their harddrive laters cause they run out of room, doesnt mean that is what everyone else wants.
That of course is pure conjecture. And honestly doesn't make a whole lotta sense if you consider that Apple supported HD-DVD before ANYone else and before it was even considered "THEE" medium. Which, as we know now, it isn't.
The whole online film thing MAY play a (very very small) part, sure, but everyone, including Apple, knows full well that they're not getting around adding BD-support (probably even in a bigger and better way than other's for that matter) at some point. I really also very much doubt that Apple thinks that people are THAT stupid not to tell or know the difference between online and the "real thing". Really.
Yes, who knows, it may very well be due to other priorities. But let's be realistic, okay. Apple is a company with STOCK and I think you know as well as I do that pissing off the iPhone user's at this time weighs MUCH heavier than a comparative few people wanting to author BD's. As much as we video pro's think that REALLY sucks. But BD support is slated for 10.5.6, so not all hope is lost. ;)
Also, AVCHD should be native support already.
Pro or not Pro? AVCHD is not Pro.
Honestly, the concept is to speed up the transfer, not have it take longer than digitizing from tape.
From the few times I've worked with AVCHD I can't say that I in any way can confirm that. The transcoding into ProRes (which is a superb idea when it comes to that stuff btw) is a multiple of real-time.
Premiere now seems to at least hit that spot as well.
Okay. If you say so. But again, like with the Flash thing, if that's actually of that much importance to you...
Point being, this is not about jumping ship.
Im sure Apple will drag their butts to finally getting these basic features implemented into their software.
Considering their position in the market, I'd say that's pretty much a given.
Mind you, I was an Apple zealot...but not to the extent of making excuses or being blind to when they start lagging behind.
Believe you me, I'm not in the business of making excuses. Especially not for the tools that I depend on to make me my money. BUT, I try not to get all huffy about the smallest of shortcomings (or maybe BIGGEST, depending on where you're looking at it, obviously). BD isn't that huge of an issue for me at the moment, so I'm cool. That what I need I have or can get, so what's the problem? I rather try to put things in to perspective and do best with what I have without spending too much time with whining. That doesn't get me anywhere. On the other hand, if Apple were to STILL lacking BD support in say 6 months or (god forbid) even a year, yeah I'd be VERY worried. But I seriouly doubt THAT'S gonna happen. Apple may occasionally be stubborn, but they ain't STUPID.
And again, the integration factor is a key thing for me.
I really dig Final Cut Pro...but if Premiere is what its looking like it has the potential to be upon release...there is a strong case in getting it.
All the power to ya! If it meets you needs better, why the hell not? You'd be an idiot not to. But honestly? That would mean that your work is FAR less in the area of professional post-production/editing like mine, but rather more of graphic nature.
Just wish they would have made A.E. and Flash one product. But thats just me, and as I said, we both are welcome to our opinions.
Eeeeewwwwww... NO friggen way. Besides, did you miss that AE wannabe app from Adobe that did nothing but Flash??! Damn... can't think of the name for the life of me.
cheers and stay creative! ;)
l2l
#49
eaddison
- Newbie
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 10
- Joined: 23-September 08
Posted 30 September 2008 - 06:38 AM
I swore to myself I wasn't going to revisit this little debate...but as I was doing some reading, I came across this and decided to point this out...
"And again you show your utter lack of knowledge of the subject of RED by writing such "the files must be converted to QT" nonsense (over and over and over and over and over and...). I suggest (AGAIN) you try actually informing yourself ahead of time to save yourself the usual embarrassment. "
First off, the video link you mentioned...yeah - it proved my point. I said FCP used the QT files RED creates, not the .R3d RAW files....and that's what they used in the video. Did you even watch the link I sent?
Now, still want to argue the point? Well, found this from an Apple employee when showcasing a new version of FCS still in development...
Then I demonstrated some improved support for RED. You will be able to take Redcode RAW files (4K) and edit them in FCP. FCP will do an on-the-fly decode to 2K for editing. When you pass them to Color, it's still working on the same 4K source files (but in a 2K project, of course). We now support Redcode RAW controls to the Primary In room in Color. This is roughly the equivalent of having the RAW fine-tuning controls we provide in Aperture for dSLR users. You have an incredible amount of latitude to adjust things like gamma, temperature, exposure, etc. All in a way that does not affect the image quality. From Color, you can render out a 2K project (DPX files for film out, ProRes for mastering back to tape, etc.).
The beauty of it is that you don't need to do any conversions on capture, and you now have RAW controls for image adjustments. Oh, and we preserve all of the Red metadata throughout the workflow too, of course.
www.larryjordan.biz/goodies/blog.html - in case you want to look it over...scroll down the page a bit.
The line that proves my point..."The beauty of it is that you don't need to do any conversions on capture"...Now, please understand I'm not saying that there's any quality loss in the conversion...well, it sounds like you can't work in a true 4K project setting, which PPro can do, but just so we're clear, he mentions how working with the RAW files is better - again, something PPro can do (or will do shortly when RED releases the plugin).
Wow...if you could be wrong about this, who knows how much else you could be wrong about?
"And again you show your utter lack of knowledge of the subject of RED by writing such "the files must be converted to QT" nonsense (over and over and over and over and over and...). I suggest (AGAIN) you try actually informing yourself ahead of time to save yourself the usual embarrassment. "
First off, the video link you mentioned...yeah - it proved my point. I said FCP used the QT files RED creates, not the .R3d RAW files....and that's what they used in the video. Did you even watch the link I sent?
Now, still want to argue the point? Well, found this from an Apple employee when showcasing a new version of FCS still in development...
Then I demonstrated some improved support for RED. You will be able to take Redcode RAW files (4K) and edit them in FCP. FCP will do an on-the-fly decode to 2K for editing. When you pass them to Color, it's still working on the same 4K source files (but in a 2K project, of course). We now support Redcode RAW controls to the Primary In room in Color. This is roughly the equivalent of having the RAW fine-tuning controls we provide in Aperture for dSLR users. You have an incredible amount of latitude to adjust things like gamma, temperature, exposure, etc. All in a way that does not affect the image quality. From Color, you can render out a 2K project (DPX files for film out, ProRes for mastering back to tape, etc.).
The beauty of it is that you don't need to do any conversions on capture, and you now have RAW controls for image adjustments. Oh, and we preserve all of the Red metadata throughout the workflow too, of course.
www.larryjordan.biz/goodies/blog.html - in case you want to look it over...scroll down the page a bit.
The line that proves my point..."The beauty of it is that you don't need to do any conversions on capture"...Now, please understand I'm not saying that there's any quality loss in the conversion...well, it sounds like you can't work in a true 4K project setting, which PPro can do, but just so we're clear, he mentions how working with the RAW files is better - again, something PPro can do (or will do shortly when RED releases the plugin).
Wow...if you could be wrong about this, who knows how much else you could be wrong about?
