[bynkii]

DreamweaverMM said:

My problem is that I need 10 iMacs right now, but am having problems finding the older ones with matte screens. The new macbook pro is also useless as it has a glossy screen.

Um, you can color correct a glossy screen. Really.

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We have new students coming into the school who can get the older macbooks and macbook pros. but those will dry up. I feer that the next release of the 17" Macbook Pro will also have a glossy screen which will completely kill us from using Macs.

No, it does no such thing. Glossy screens are somewhat harder to read over the shoulder, but that does not make it impossible to do so.

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We've been using Macs for 20 years and the cost of a switchover from new computers to new software to retraining staff may kill our school when all we want are computers with matte screens and firewire ports.

You're going to spend hundred grand, (probably more over the long term, and lose the ability to teach students on one of, if not the top high end video editing products) to go to Windows over GLOSSY SCREENS? Have you calculated the cost of lost student revenue to schools that say "Yeah, glossy screens were a problem, but we figured out constructive ways to solve it." Matte screens are not going to make up for students who need to learn FCP. You would rather go out of business than deal with glossy screens? Really?

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Why are you doing this to us, Apple?

That's right. They did it to you specifically. I bet your name is on a memo from Steve saying "Let's make her life suck and ruin her school".

[bynkii]

kboone34 said:

To some degree I understand Apple's move. However in this case, I'd just have to call it bad/horrific timing. In a world where we are trying to do everything smaller, faster, cheaper, cleaner and usually in Apple's case much easier, this is clearly a swing and a miss. So; is Apple also telling budget minded people (the majority of customers who wonder into the Apple store) Grandparents, skate boarding kids and starving college students too bad.

To use this machine to make and or use iMovie, you have to spend an additional $700.00 to move up to the lager machine they don't want. Or maybe you could convince that same person in this current U.S. economy, that perhaps they should just find a way to upgrade (somewhere in the range of $1,200.00 & up) to a new camera, I'll call this one, strike two.

Steve mentioned that the Macbook was one of the best selling Mac's of all time, so to show our appreciation, we'll take away one of the key features, (that unknowingly to most who purchased the Firewire equipped machine) that truly made is so successful. I hope that the outrage grows so loud, to the point that Apple will do an about face, and bring back the FW/400 port. I't happened before. If it's only a real-estate issue, then just have one USB/2 and one FW/400 port. Some may gripe about only having just one USB connection, but buying a USB hub (about $15.00 bucks and up) is way cheeper than moving to a larger machine, starting at $2,000.00. Apple, on this one, you're standing at the plate, bottom of the 9th, with 2 outs and 2 strikes, what do you do. Easy, PUT IT BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in. This machine (while it may have some success this holiday season) would have sold twice the amount if it had not dropped the FW port. I was on my way to purchase two of them. Not now. And I won't move up to the 15' and it's not the price. I Just don't want a big machine.

So buy the white plastic Macbook, and bob's your uncle. That still has FW. You get a new machine, save money, and if Apple DOES put it back in, (always a possibility), you look smart. Score!

[bynkii]

Bubowski said:

Fatal Flaw (or as the kids say, EPIC FAIL)

Can anyone say EDUCATIONAL MARKET? There are many (many, many) schools that have adopted MacBooks into their everyday curriculum. Most of them have decided this on the basis of cost/functionality; and connectivity is one of the core functions they are looking for.

Apple educational sales has been selling bundles of MacBooks with firewire based video cameras, and many schools have also purchsed these on their own. This investment will now be forfeit and academic buyers may start looking at alternatives (even the Dell Vostro has firewire at $499).

Dropping Firewire is a huge mistake for the educational market as it negates their investment in peripherals for their existing systems. When it come time to replace their computers, they will have a far more difficult time making the argument for Apple when they now need to replace their cameras as well.

I have been on the technology board of two school districts and know what it's like to fight to keep Macs in the classroom. Apple is cutting off it's nose to spite it's face on this one.

For Education's sake, Apple, bring back Firewire on the MacBook!

Done and Done. Polycarbonate Macbook, starts at $999, still has FW.

Anything else you need?

[Peter Cohen]

IEBA1 said:

FireWire has been standard issue on DV camcorders for well over a decade.

Yeah, I myself have a Canon Elura, a miniDV camera circa 1999, that has a FireWire interface on it. I don't need a lesson in FireWire's ubiquity over the course of the past decade.

And I have no argument that FireWire remains a popular interface on professional products. But again, as I've stated and restated elsewhere, there's this other product in Apple's lineup called the MacBook Pro that's infinitely better suited for use by video professionals, audio professionals, and others who are doing tasks that require the bandwidth and speed of FireWire-based products.

I'm having trouble understanding why Apple's decision to excise FireWire from the MacBook specifically is somehow seen by everyone as a referendum on Apple's support of FireWire all together, or the future of FireWire as a professional interface standard.

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Lessee: Can you enable the sharing of one "troubled" machine to another, fully accessing the drive without user & permissions issues by holding down just one key during startup? No.

No, but as Bynkii has pointed out, repeatedly, elsewhere in this thread, other suitable solutions for diagnosing and fixing an errant Mac exist that don't require TDM. Is it an inconvenience? Yes. Is it a crippling shortcoming? No.

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So you're fine with a slower, more clumsy, non-daisy chainable standard for your more powerful new laptop.
I'm not.

Then great. The MacBook Pro is for you.

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But removing Firewire is doing nothing but artificially stratifying Apple's laptops by removing clearly better technology and making it available only on the machines that cost twice as much.

This isn't the first evidence we've seen of Apple marketing leading its engineering and I suspect that it's far from the last.

[Londoner]

Not including firewire on the new MacBook seems to be the only thing people care about. And everybody (except Bynkil and Peter Cohen) seems to think that this is an enormous mistake that will stop Win people from switching and cause Apple devotees to run into the bright world of Vista. How could Apple be so stupid?
Obviously, the strategic planners at Apple have no clue about what customers want or need, nor do they have any insight in what technologies to keep and what to introduce, be it firewire, glossy screens, mini display ports, headless consumer PCs, Blue-Ray or eSATA. They haven't realised that all the experts are to be found in the MacWorld forums.

Regarding the firewire issue it's as simple as Bynkil says: If you must buy a new MacBook right now, and if it must have firewire, then either pay an extra $400-$700 for the MacBook Pro (depending on which of the two MacBook models you had otherwise planned to get), or go for the white MacBook and save $300-$600 - or buy a refurbished one and save even more! But many of you probably don't have to buy a new notebook at all right now, you just get the urge every time a new model arrives. If so, stick with the old one for another year or two and save the money.

[Peter Cohen]

smphoto said:

While a Macbook Pro is good for this, the extra weight is a hindrance. It would be nice if Apple would produce a 13" Macbook Pro or add firewire back in to the Macbook.

I shoot with a Canon EOS 30D, and have used a 17-inch MacBook Pro as long as I've been shooting with a DSLR. Proofing is better with the large screen and Aperture runs faster on a laptop with a discrete GPU. Your mileage may vary, as in all things, but at least among the professional and prosumer photographers I work with, the MacBook Pro -- size and weight notwithstanding -- is the laptop of choice, for those and other reasons.

As far as a 13-inch MacBook Pro is concerned, that'd be nice. I've missed a pro-level smaller laptop ever since the 12-inch PowerBook G4 went away, and the MacBook Air's performance is just too limiting for what I need to do with a laptop.

[Londoner]

If the glossy screen is such a big issue, how could anyone use a computer before the first flat screens arrived? All CTR monitors were glossy screens, just as most TVs still are - even the flat ones. I have used an iMac with a glossy screen for six months now, and I love it! Sure there can be some glare from a window on a sunny day, but it's not worse than it was in the CTR days - and those aren't that far away.
Glossy screens have many advantages and most users like them, especially school kids. If your school buys MacBooks with glossy screens, you'll probably find that the kids who have the matte ones want to switch.

As for the 10 iMacs you need: if you absolutely don't want glossy screens, buy Mac minis instead...

[trip1ex]

Everyone here is just going to buy new USB3 or FW3200 or power over eSata drives/devices in a year or two anyway. ;)

They'll have a good laugh when they look back and wonder why they whined about no FW400 port on the new MB.

[chuckstjohn]

I shoot primarily with a Hasselblad on which is attached a PhaseOne digital back. Tethered shooting, via Firewire, allows my clients and me the opportunity to see images as they are captured. It also allows me to, when the need arises, to overlap two images as they are shot to determine were elements need to do when compositing.
Without this available, I am wondering if Apple has inadvertently chopped off the hands of those of us that were ready to upgrade. In the meantime, I will try an adapter I have throught the Firewire 800 port. If that works, I'll be fine. If not...trouble now and in the future inasmuch most MF digital backs shoot tethered via Firewire 400.
I'd appreciate any forum members thoughts on this subject

[Londoner]

trip1ex said:

Everyone here is just going to buy new USB3 or FW3200 or power over eSata drives/devices in a year or two anyway. ;)

They'll have a good laugh when they look back and wonder why they whined about no FW400 port on the new MB.

Hear, hear!

[moose_n_squirrel]

bynkii makes a lot of good points. Clearly there are many Mac uses who are going "omg" without the facts of how much less FireWire is needed these days and how much more Apple has allowed tasks that were once FireWire-only to become supported over other connection types.

On the other hand, Apple has made a blunder. More and more PC laptops have FireWire onboard, so Apple's "product differentiation" from its MBP will have the side effect of "differentiating" the MacBook from PC laptops in a bad way. Already people point to how PC laptops at the same price point come with more RAM, more disk space, 8-in-1 card readers, PC card slots, and so on. Now you can stand in a store and say "And the entry level Mac doesn't have 1394 on it but these Vista laptops do."

icerabbit said:

If you can't rely on using a standard peripheral in the next generation of Macs, that is one ugly precedent.

It's about 15 years too late to complain about that. Apple has done this all along. People will whine today and forget it tomorrow. I bought the PowerBook G3 FireWire. Depending on which side of the line you are on it was a terrible or great port selection. There was no ADB or SCSI port on it, so my entire collection of Mac standard peripherals was instantly useless. But they replaced them with USB and FireWire, and how do I feel about that today? Well...now it feels like a forward-looking machine.

Apple has always added the ports it thought it needed halfway through a model's life span, not at the beginning. This is nothing new. If there is anything different about this time, I think there is a fair chance the port will return just as they had to add was it the FireWire 800 port back onto the 17" after taking it off. Sad that Apple has this schizophrenia about it because you can't plan on which decisions will stick.

[chuckstjohn]

I shoot primarily with a Hasselblad on which I have a Phase One Medium (MF) digital back which is tethered to my MacBook Pro via Firewire. I do have a 400-800 adapter and will test it to see if I can shoot tethered to the new laptops. If not, this will be a deal breaker for me as there is no way Phase will be able to change my existing Firewire 400 to 800. Shooting tethered is a great technique for clients and me to see images as they are shot and to be able to use overlays while shooting to determine where elements need to be for compositing.
The switch to 800 and dropping 400 is clearly a grave error on the part of Apple.

[DreamweaverMM]

These are not kids, they are adults trying to learn to be graphic artists. The difference between the older CRTs and the new glossy screens is that the older CRTs did not over saturate the color so that it would pop. That's great for gaming and showing off your photos in all their unnatural color, but it's a disaster in the print industry.
We've been trying to use glossy screens, but so far, the computers are unusable in the afternoons.
Mac Mini? Have you tried to use CS3, Final Cut, Maya, etc on one?
Down with glossy screens!!!

[bynkii]

chuckstjohn said:

I shoot primarily with a Hasselblad on which is attached a PhaseOne digital back. Tethered shooting, via Firewire, allows my clients and me the opportunity to see images as they are captured. It also allows me to, when the need arises, to overlap two images as they are shot to determine were elements need to do when compositing.

Without this available, I am wondering if Apple has inadvertently chopped off the hands of those of us that were ready to upgrade. In the meantime, I will try an adapter I have throught the Firewire 800 port. If that works, I'll be fine. If not...trouble now and in the future inasmuch most MF digital backs shoot tethered via Firewire 400.

I'd appreciate any forum members thoughts on this subject

If you can afford a hasselblad, the difference in price between a Macbook and a Macbook Pro is not a killer. All you have to do is get a FW800 -> 400 cable. They're cheap and readily available online. Not a big deal.

If the ~$400 extra for the Macbook Pro is not worth the improved featureset, then get a white plastic Macbook, and SAVE quite a bit of money.