[IEBA1]

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{quote:title=bynkii wrote, and wrote, and wrote, and wrote, and wrote, and wrote, and wrote:}
So buy the white plastic Macbook. That still has FW. {quote}

Because, as we'd expect you to already know, the plastic MacBook has hobbled integrated graphics.
When Apple made the graphics 6x more powerful, then the MacBook became usable as a small powerhouse- until the Firewire port got ripped out.
Either way, you get a deliberately hobbled machine (though I'd have to take inferior GPU over lack of FireWire.)

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{quote:title=Peter Cohen wrote:}
> {quote:title=IEBA1 wrote:}
> FireWire has been standard issue on DV camcorders for well over a decade. {quote}

Yeah, I myself have a Canon Elura, a miniDV camera circa 1999, that has a FireWire interface on it. I don't need a lesson in FireWire's ubiquity over the course of the past decade.{quote}

Then why on earth would you say "A lot of standard-definition (SD) video cameras have relied on FireWire for the past few years." when you know that's a lie. Was your goal to misrepresent the depth and breadth of the products on the market that absolutely require FireWire to transfer data? Well, you did.
Why would you do that?

I don't know if it was worse thinking you didn't know, or now knowing that you know the truth, but tried to make like it was just the past few years and "a lot" as opposed to every single one of MiniDV, HDV, Digital-8 and more. Yea, thanks for clarifying what poor journalism that was.

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{quote:title=Peter Cohen wrote:}
I'm having trouble understanding why Apple's decision to excise FireWire from the MacBook specifically is somehow seen by everyone as a referendum on Apple's support of FireWire all together, or the future of FireWire as a professional interface standard.{quote}

How many of Apple's last three newly designed laptops (apple's biggest selling product by far, according to them) have had Firewire 400?

None.

You can expect the next Mini (if it doesn't get axed altogether) will also lack FW-400.

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Then great. The MacBook Pro is for you.

I have one, thank you.
I had to buy it for my work, because it has a dedicated GPU and FW-400.
Elsewise I would have bought the far more appropriately priced, and convenient to use MacBook.
I use mine in a video gear rack and having wires snaking out of both sides of the machine is a problem- they make it wider than the standard rack width so it can't sit inside a normal rack shelf. and it has to sit sideways or else the optical can't be accessed from the front of the rack.

A computer with ports on one side and an optical drive on the other side- like the old and new MacBook would be a far better solution if it weren't for the crippled GPU then, and no FireWire now.

And, no, getting a $3000 Mac Pro to edit DV is an even worse joke. One that I refuse subject myself to.
http://techthoughts....e-mac-mini-pro/

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This isn't the first evidence we've seen of Apple marketing leading its engineering and I suspect that it's far from the last.

Ah. Finally.
A bit of honest appreciation for the reality of the bad situation.
Should have put a bit of that into the original article.

[kiote01]

My understanding is that a USB 2.0 hard drive cannot be configured as a bootable drive. So having a bootable external backup drive to travel with would not be an option. Am I wrong? If this is indeed the case, the MacBook is not really functional for professional travel use. When I travel for business I always take a bootable copy of my hard drive in case of an internal hard drive failure. Otherwise I would be stuck and out of luck.

[bynkii]

chuckstjohn said:

I shoot primarily with a Hasselblad on which I have a Phase One Medium (MF) digital back which is tethered to my MacBook Pro via Firewire. I do have a 400-800 adapter and will test it to see if I can shoot tethered to the new laptops. If not, this will be a deal breaker for me as there is no way Phase will be able to change my existing Firewire 400 to 800. Shooting tethered is a great technique for clients and me to see images as they are shot and to be able to use overlays while shooting to determine where elements need to be for compositing.

The switch to 800 and dropping 400 is clearly a grave error on the part of Apple.

Buy

A

New

Cable.

[zozocalypso]

Anyone who has compared data transfer speeds between USB2 & Firewire, will testify that USB2 is painfully slow.
What is Apple thinking? "Oh let's just chop of a limb and not seek advice before doing so".
I would never consider uploading CF/SD cards or plugging in a HD using USB.
People (not just pro's) are using ever increasing amounts of data so Apple releases a new computer with slower connectivity?
Apple should seriously seek advice.

[chuckstjohn]

Explain...buy a FW 800 Cable?

[JakeT]

Firewire is faster than USB2. Check the speeds on Macworld's recent review of the G-Drive. http://www.macworld....gdrivemini.html

SATA isn't necessarily faster. It depends on the supporting hardware/software. In most cases, it's slower than USB.

While I could get a MacBook Pro, it isn't available in the smaller/lighter size. I don't always want to carry around a big heavy laptop. I want a small, full featured one. I miss my 12 inch Powerbook. I'm still waiting for a replacement for that.

Firewire was originally designed partly for video. Some televisions, cable boxes and other set top boxes have it.

[bynkii]

DreamweaverMM said:

These are not kids, they are adults trying to learn to be graphic artists. The difference between the older CRTs and the new glossy screens is that the older CRTs did not over saturate the color so that it would pop. That's great for gaming and showing off your photos in all their unnatural color, but it's a disaster in the print industry.

Get a spider and calibrate your monitor. My wife is an artist using HP glossy LCDs, (which are quite a bit nicer than the Apple monitors, pivot for the win), and she has zero problems calibrating them.

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We've been trying to use glossy screens, but so far, the computers are unusable in the afternoons.

Room design? Change the orientation of the screens in relation to the window.

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Mac Mini? Have you tried to use CS3, Final Cut, Maya, etc on one?

Down with glossy screens!!!

Again, dealing with glossy screens is a well-solved problem. If you refuse to avail yourself of said solutions, that is your choice, but that is not the same as there being no solutions available.

[moose_n_squirrel]

chuckstjohn said:

I shoot primarily with a Hasselblad...The switch to 800 and dropping 400 is clearly a grave error on the part of Apple.

I have no use for FireWire 400 when moving photos around. It's too slow!! It's the FireWire 800 port on my MBP that gets used all the time for all big file transfers. There should be no problem with an 800 to 400 cable. Heck if I could afford a Hasselblad I don't think I'd even look at the 400 port with those size files.

As for the IT staff, it looks like bynkii wins again based on this quote just found at Ars Technica:

> Yes, without FireWire there is no Target Disk Mode. But for the majority of users who rely on that, which in my experience is IT staff, the drive is easily removed and put into an external case.

[bynkii]

kiote01 said:

My understanding is that a USB 2.0 hard drive cannot be configured as a bootable drive. So having a bootable external backup drive to travel with would not be an option. Am I wrong? If this is indeed the case, the MacBook is not really functional for professional travel use. When I travel for business I always take a bootable copy of my hard drive in case of an internal hard drive failure. Otherwise I would be stuck and out of luck.

That is completely incorrect. Intel macs can and do boot from USB drives.

[bynkii]

chuckstjohn said:

Explain...buy a FW 800 Cable?

You buy a FW 800 -> FW 400 cable. Camera plugs in to 400 end. Computer plugs into 800 end. Problem solved.

[chuckstjohn]

Apparrently there are two of you that aren't getting my point. The port on the digital back is FW400. You cannot use FW 800 cable on it at all. I am going to test a FW400 cable running through a FW400-800 adapter (which I have) to see if it works. It seems like it should, but I won't be certain till I test it.

Buying a new cable (FW800) is no solution as the port on the back is a FW400 port only.

Still...this is not a good decision by Apple for me at least.

[Mikeinla]

{quote}bynkii wrote
Get bigger drives or a USB hub. You're not running 5/6 drives off of FW power anyway, so the hub is a minor issue.{quote}
Already using 500 gig to 1T drives thanks... We deal with a Lot of Data that has to be distributed and don't have the luxury of being in a fixed IT-like position. Ever run several hard drives concurrently on a USB hub ?? USB hubs are notorious for their instability. I have a drawer of trashed ones if you need some spare parts. Do I really need to haul more crap around because Apple needs to save a couple of bucks ??

{quote}bynkii wrote
To FW 800, yes, but then the Macbooks never had FW800. For that, you went pro, and luckily, FW800 is still on the pro. So if you rely on FW800, nothing changed for you.{quote}
Check, but why take away something that was (and is... ) a superior format. We were still able to use the FW400 connectors on FW800 drives even at a reduced speed ... why not add FW800 to these machines when the format is in such daily wide use?? Again , this is not just about hard drives.... We have a lot of money tied up in state of the art firewire only audio interfaces. I don't want to see this format go the way of the Dodo for no good reason.

{quote}bynkii wrote
A plastic Macbook and a third party drive is still cheaper, and slightly faster than the low end Al Macbook.{quote}

Right, and that's what I've recommended to the several people who have phoned me this morning to get my opinions on what MacBook to buy. We could definitely use the faster graphics, but why pay almost a thousand bucks more to get to the next level of machines with a firewire port ??

[bynkii]

JakeT said:

Firewire is faster than USB2. Check the speeds on Macworld's recent review of the G-Drive. http://www.macworld....gdrivemini.html

FW is SOMETIMES faster than USB2. Not always. If the implementation is only using FW for 100Mbps speeds, (not uncommon with consumer - level cameras), then USB 2 is actually faster overall. for Hard drives, FW wins due to efficiency, even though it's 80Mbps slower than USB Burst.

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SATA isn't necessarily faster. It depends on the supporting hardware/software. In most cases, it's slower than USB.

Which implementation of SATA? Having done large data transfers with both, I've yet to see modern SATA lose.

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While I could get a MacBook Pro, it isn't available in the smaller/lighter size. I don't always want to carry around a big heavy laptop. I want a small, full featured one. I miss my 12 inch Powerbook. I'm still waiting for a replacement for that.

Firewire was originally designed partly for video. Some televisions, cable boxes and other set top boxes have it.

Some also have USB.

[bynkii]

chuckstjohn said:

Apparrently there are two of you that aren't getting my point. The port on the digital back is FW400. You cannot use FW 800 cable on it at all. I am going to test a FW400 cable running through a FW400-800 adapter (which I have) to see if it works. It seems like it should, but I won't be certain till I test it.

Buying a new cable (FW800) is no solution as the port on the back is a FW400 port only.

Still...this is not a good decision by Apple for me at least.

It's not an ADAPTOR, it's a CABLE. A FW 400 -> 800 CABLE. Did you even TRY to look this up?