[Steve_S]

People_Eater said:

That's because it was replaced with DisplayPort, a superior technology which is perfectly compatible with DVI, HDMI and VGA. It's better than having any one of those interfaces. Apple has not replaced Firewire with something better. They only leave us with inferior solutions.

Well said. That's a point I've been trying to get across on this thread as well.

Another point is this. It's one thing to skip features on the MacBook Air which by definition is all about compromise. Watching the Apple production video where Johnathon Ives talk about building the MacBook without compromises (then thinking about the missing Firewire) almost makes me feel ill. The new MacBook would be a home run had they not been so short sighted with this issue. At this point, the best we can hope for is that they come to their senses with the next update. I hope people send a message with their wallets, but I fear that won't be the case. Those of us who are objective and don't worship every decision Apple makes are likely just the vocal minority.

[People_Eater]

Peter Cohen said:

No, but as Bynkii has pointed out, repeatedly, elsewhere in this thread, other suitable solutions for diagnosing and fixing an errant Mac exist that don't require TDM. Is it an inconvenience? Yes. Is it a crippling shortcoming? No.

Hmmm... are Peter Cohen and bynkii double-teaming this discussion?

Peter responds defensively to even mild criticisms - yet doesn't tell bynkii to dial down his excessive and aggressive posting, and in fact positively references him - even though bynkii is leading the discussion down the drain.

Then there's the similarities in their style - both refer to people as "whining" if they don't like the omission of Firewire. Both tell people to just "deal with it" and suggest that people "just" buy a Macbook Pro. Both also hint at the idea that the only people who need Firewire are the kind that can afford a MBP or new camcorder anyway.

So, let's address this. Firstly - the "whining". This is term is repeated over and over again. Yet I don't see anybody whining here (apart from bynkii who whines about people who disagree). people are simply expressing their disappointment, and saying they would have preferred that Apple keep Firewire in the MB.

Then there's the "just deal with it" idea. I think people are dealing with it. I don't think anybody here is going to jump from a building because the Macbook doesn't have Firewire. But is this what it has come to? We have to be so submissive and compliant to Apple that we can't expect their machines to be awesome? That "it doesn't totally suck" is good enough?

I think not. I want Apple products to be great, to be leading the path. Not to merely be acceptable. Not to have to put up with poor design decisions. Isn't the idea to attract customers by making machines that impress people? If Mac fans are not impressed, that's not a very good sign. Apple should be hitting it out of the park, not taking a walk.

[jwdav]

If you never "got" the advantages of FireWire, or just want to connect external HD's & webcams you're not really going to miss it.

However, some FireWire advantages over USB include:

Target Disk Mode on Macs
FireWire can be daisy chained
Bus Power - FW - Up to 30V/45W vs USB 5V/500mA
Peer to Peer Connections (no host or CPU required)
Multiple Host on a bus support
TCP/IP Networking support
Distance FW800 = 100 Meters USB = 5 Meters
No Drivers Required (config ROM built in) aka Plug n Play
Remote Control of devices like cameras
CableTV Box Support

Firewire allows two operating modes. One is asynchronous, like USB which suffers from latency, bus contention and collisions.

The other is isochronous mode, and it lets a device carve out a certain dedicated amount of bandwidth that other devices can't touch. It gets a certain number of time slices each second all its own. The advantages for audio/video should be obvious: that stream of data can just keep on flowing, and as long as there isn't more bandwidth demand than the wire can handle, nothing will interfere with it. No collisions, no glitches.

From a practical perspective, this also makes it safer to send a lot more audio via Firewire. That's why most of the multichannel interfaces (16-24 channel) are Firewire devices, while USB devices are used for a two-channel stereo signal.

[GiantSalamader]

bynkil is my sort of informed crank. Really knows what he's talking about and gets frustrated with discussion. His tone might be upsetting but read his posts and you'll learn quite a bit of useful info. Go forth bynkil!

I don't have a lot of money but even with FireWire I never really considered a MacBook. Never enough for what I want a laptop to do. The traveling photographers have a point although the MacBook was never really designed for pro work. Shows you how task amorphous computing has become over the past 15 years. I sometimes use a MacMini to do DVD authoring and minor video editing! It works. If this discussion tells Apple that more professionals are using MacBooks than they realize, the next model might be more to everyone's liking. This discussion is already showing everyone how OS10 has more administrator tools than TDM.

Now for a constructive thought aside from the threats of dumping the Mac and buying a PC or suggesting people spend another lump of money to sync their peripherals up to a new Macbook.....

There has to be a way to make a bus powered FireWire to USB2 converter. It can't be out of reach of affordable technology, $30 to $50 dollars. Come on people there's enough smarts around this country that this could be ready in two months or less. I still have a bus powered USB to RS-422 dongle for equipment control.

[RickR]

While many things have come down in price, Firewire interfaces like the MOTU 828 have not. I would like to purchase a new MacBook to use in live/studio performance, but there is no way I am going to buy a new interface when the one I have now works great. Talking about throwing the baby out with the bath water. And what really is egregious about this decision is that Firewire is Apple's technology, and they have spent years marketing how Firewire is much faster the USB. I'll pass this time around and vote for the new lineup by keeping my money in my wallet.

[FrankeeD]

Another issue is that 2.5 USB drives won't run on the power from a USB port on a G4 PowerBook (although they will on a Pismo -- at USB 1 speeds, though) -- maybe they work on the new books, but who wants to take a chance?
Apple's taking a big gamble here. It's not the newbies who are complaining about this, but the long-time users who've invested a lot in firewire devices. Not the group a company wants to annoy usually.
There's nothing compelling about the new machines. They are nice looking, but offer no performance boost from the previous generation, while costing more than the machines they replace.

[ddd1301]

So this is a fatal flaw for me. I was waiting on the introduction to purchase a machine for around $1500. As I need FW for camera, HD, etc. I will be buying the $1000 unit. I did not want the white unit, which is why I waited, but that is life.

Apple loses revenue, as I cannot spend an additional $500 ($2000) for a system this year. I will take the $500 I am not spending on Apple and invest it in the market. And not on Apple stock this time. Blue chips here I come!!

You too can vote with your pocketbook.

[FrankeeD]

If firewire is for consumers, why has it been on all the iMacs since day 1? I'm a consumer, but firewire plays a central part in my backup strategy. One that I won't relegate to the less reliable USB2. Why should I have to change my backup strategy or pay $500 more because Apple's too cheap to include a firewire port?

[ralphmegna]

RE: "I suspect most people will make the transition, and will ultimately find that they’re not missing much by making the switch."
Alas, Peter, you would be wrong about that.

[JDW]

People_Eater, after wading ever so slowly through the SPAM in this forum this morning, I found your posts to be quite refreshing. Thank you.

When one opens a dictionary to find "apologist" or "troll" or "forum Dad wannabe" or "forum SPAMMER supreme," I wouldn't be surprised to find the forum name bynkii listed. And whether made tongue-in-cheek or not, his words here rather eye-opening, "I also eat babies for breakfast, kick puppies on my morning constitutional, and feel really poorly if I haven't closed down an orphanage, and foreclosed on a widow by dinner."

I am also inclined to believe that his rather pissed-off looking forum icon truly does resemble how he looks in real life. This fellow is ripping virtually everyone in this forum who has a legitimate issue with the lack of Firewire on the new MacBooks! There are so many of his posts in this thread in fact, it feels to me on a human level what poor servers must feel like during a DoS attack! But at least we can take his own words in this forum to heart when he says, "You're free to ignore me." bynkii, I think we will do just that.

[People_Eater]

GiantSalamader said:

>

Quote

bynkil is my sort of informed crank. Really knows what he's talking about and gets frustrated with discussion. His tone might be upsetting but read his posts and you'll learn quite a bit of useful info. Go forth bynkil!

Can't say I learned anything from his posts that I didn't already know, other than how obnoxious he can be. I don't think he even attempted discussion, really. And doesn't your advice cut both ways? Perhaps bynkii should listen to others, and he might learn something. He seems to think everybody should work the same way he works.

One of the lessons of this thread is that people use technologies in different ways that suit them, and defy simplistic categorization.

Quote

There has to be a way to make a bus powered FireWire to USB2 converter. It can't be out of reach of affordable technology, $30 to $50 dollars. Come on people there's enough smarts around this country that this could be ready in two months or less. I still have a bus powered USB to RS-422 dongle for equipment control.

What would be the point? If the data has to go through the USB connection, then the benefits of Firewire are lost. you can't make an existing USB port perform like a Firewire port. It's engineered in a completely different way. There's a reason USB ports are cheaper to add than Firewire - they cut costs by reducing the silicon, and offloading processing to the CPU. If we could have our cheap USB ports perform like Firewire, that would be awesome. But it won't work.

[heisetax]

The absence of FireWire on the new Intel MacBooks should & is a deal breaker for many. I would not purchase an Intel MacBook without FireWire as all of my drives are FireWire drives. Many of these drives will operate USB but why would I want to slow them down. My USB section already has too uch to do & has said several times that the job can not be done without eliminating one or more running USB device.
I also would not recommend that anyone purchase one of these new laptops.

[People_Eater]

JDW said:

People_Eater, after wading ever so slowly through the SPAM in this forum this morning, I found your posts to be quite refreshing. Thank you.

You're welcome.

[Peter Cohen]

People_Eater said:

Hmmm... are Peter Cohen and bynkii double-teaming this discussion?

John Welch's aggressive debate style aside, I'd put his skills in IT management up against anyone's in the business. He is very, very skilled at what he does.

And yes, neither of us suffer fools gladly.