[Archiform_3D]

I could never figure it either. The cameras catch up with each other in a matter of months, so the real money and decision should lie in the lenses. I have seen people switch from Nikon to Canon to go back to Nikon and vice versa. It's crazy. The two companies are always competing heavily with each other and while they do that both camps are almost guaranteed access to the coolest gear, even if they have to wait 3 months for it.

Oh, and I am a Canon guy....

Steve Bell
Archiform 3D Pictures

[porterlu]

Nikon AND Canon are both dead, they just don't know it yet. And most of their customers don't yet either. But they will, and very, very soon.
Now that RED has announced the release of their DSLR I am officially jumping onto their bandwagon! Alright, I've been on it for a long time since they first previewed the RED ONE cinema camera, but now with their DSLR... I am beside myself with excitement.
"Scarlet" is being released mid-2009 and I'm starting to save my money 'cause woof, they pack a wallop.
I got my hands on one of these bad boys earlier this summer and... wow. Worth every red cent they sell 'em for.
PL, Nikon AND Canon lens mounts, fully upgradeable and modifiable body and aks, true digital cinema mode, gorgeous optics of their own... revolutionary and sexy sexy sexy.
Check it out, friends.
http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/
http://www.luminous-...s/scarlet.shtml

[Rugby]

well since these "things" aren't yet on the market, no review has been filed for the statements made, and "PL, Nikon AND Canon lens mounts, fully upgradeable and modifiable body and aks, true digital cinema mode, gorgeous optics of their own... revolutionary and sexy sexy sexy" sexiness is NOT that falls into mind. That hideous thing look like the "first" digitals DSLR, Kodak. Not really portable is it. That said for a product not yet out there, the actual idea had struck my mind in the past. If somebody combined high quality video AND high quality camera stills (ooooh the space needed for that ...) and reasonably portable....well that could be a selling point.

But this monster ?

Have always used Nikon, never liked ergonomics of Canon and waited to buy a digital DSLR until D300. Still when traveling I would take my analogue Nikon with me (or my Mamiya 645) - less sensitive regarding power and settings (my personal view), dust, and hey I like to calm down and concentrate to take good shots instead of quantity

[People_Eater]

This is so incorrect it's funny.

porterlu said:

Now that RED has announced the release of their DSLR I am officially jumping onto their bandwagon! Alright, I've been on it for a long time since they first previewed the RED ONE cinema camera, but now with their DSLR... I am beside myself with excitement.

RED has not announced a DSLR. they have announced a modular digital still/motion camera system. It's not an SLR - you don't look through the lens. You use an electronic viewfinder (EVF). It's a completely different beast.

I like the RED cameras. But this will not replace the DSLR. It would make a fine studio camera, to replace large and medium-format cameras used in relatively static studio environments. But there's no way you are going to be using this for action photography, wildlife, or any general-purpose photography. DSLRs have fast phase-detect autofocus systems. The RED, if it has AF at all, will have a slower "contrast-detect" system.

Nikon and Canon have spent decades developing ergonomic SLRs that are comfortable to hold and very portable, that become an "extension of your eye". RED have a modular system that is best used by a team in a production setting. It's just not the same thing.

Now, even if RED do produce a killer DSLR some time in the future, who is going to make the lenses? I very much doubt that RED has the capacity to make the huge variety of specialist lenses that Nikon and Canon (or Leitz, Cosina-Voigtlander etc) do. So, even if Nikon/Canon stopped making DSLR bodies, they could still do very well just making lenses for other systems.

But please, inform yourself before you write about these things. I have no idea how you got the impression that the camera RED announced is a DSLR.

[porterlu]

People_Eater said:

This is so incorrect it's funny.

Hrmm, glad I could provide some entertainment :-)

Your arguments do not fall on deaf ears. And you are right, RED is not making a DSLR; as you say, it is a DSMC system and there is nothing reflex about it. Whether it is a completely different beast, well, I would consider it to be of a different Genus but of the same Order and Family as DSLRs. ;-)

Nomenclature aside though, on the other more important issues I think your points are certainly valid, though I don't really agree with all of them. To reverse my position however, allow me to state that RED has not killed Nikon and Canon nor the DSLR. Not yet anyway, and for all the reasons you pointed out.

>It would make a fine studio camera, to replace large and medium-format cameras used in relatively static studio environments. But there's no way you are going to be using this for action photography, wildlife, or any general-purpose photography. DSLRs have fast phase-detect autofocus systems. The RED, if it has AF at all, will have a slower "contrast-detect" system.
I plead negligence as personal application colors perspective. Cinematography is my primary focus, whereas still photography is a secondary, though integral, venture. Most of my stills work is in fact either studio or landscape-based where fully manual remains my preference. But of course that will not be the case for many and I too am skeptical about RED's AF implementation, both for native and Nikon/Canon lenses. We shall see.

Speaking of lenses, RED is indeed making their own (or at least farming out production, a subject of great speculation on the reduser forums). True, the brand does not have the same reach and variety as Nikon/Canon, but the ability to utilize those lenses alongside 3K imaging is what will ultimately sell the camera.

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RED have a modular system that is best used by a team in a production setting.

I do not see any reason that RED DSMCs would not be perfectly usable for the solo photographer. Modular does not always necessitate additional manpower. If you use all the bells and whistles typically used for cinema production then sure, but for still photography, once brain, grip & EVF modules are put together it requires no more attention than, say, the Nikon D3X.
!http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_scarlethandle1.jpg|thumbnail=true!
This basic configuration I also found to be quite wieldy and comfortable and expect it will lend itself very well even to uncontrolled settings. Practical, in the field use will tell all once it gets into people's hands.

My preference for a fully- (or even semi-)modular camera that can be upgraded and refined as the industry advances is what excites me.

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... even if Nikon/Canon stopped making DSLR bodies, they could still do very well just making lenses for other systems.

They certainly could do quite well as dedicated optics companies and if they do not embrace the notion of modular/component upgradability for their professional & semi-pro models instead of entire camera replacement, I expect that in time this is exactly what may become of them. Modular does by its nature tend to add some additional cost to full-package purchasing, but the idea is that once investment is made, the cost of upgrading and replacement drops significantly. Tangentially, when was the last time Nikon offered a full-price (or even partial) credit on an old D3 towards a new D3X or Canon on the 1D towards the 1Ds?

Rugby said:

>If somebody combined high quality video AND high quality camera stills (ooooh the space needed for that ...) and reasonably portable....well that could be a selling point.
Well I would say that is exactly what RED has done. Again, we will see if this proves true.

Perhaps I was a little overly enthusiastic in my declamations. But just a little.
In the end, as always, it comes down to usability. If it works well, then people will flock to it. It is too early to know for sure, but it is the perfect time to become interested. Writing it off, however, would be a mistake.

Regards, :-)
~P.

[People_Eater]

porterlu said:

>

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Whether it is a completely different beast, well, I would consider it to be of a different Genus but of the same Order and Family as DSLRs. ;-)

Well, I think the nomenclature is important- many people use the term "DSLR" without realising what it actually means. Oddly enough, that didn't really happen in the "pre-D" days. When you said "SLR" in the film days, people either knew what you meant, or they had no idea. Now, we have a bunch of people (particularly on the gadget sites) who talk as if they are experts on the matter, but don't even seem to be aware of what an SLR is.

As far as Genus and order, we don't need to muddy the waters by using the DSLR term. Both the RED and its competitors fit into the realm of "professional photographic tools". Just as a Leica is not an SLR, but is still used by professionals. Just like a large-format camera is not an SLR but is used by professionals.

Different tools for different purposes.

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I do not see any reason that RED DSMCs would not be perfectly usable for the solo photographer. Modular does not always necessitate additional manpower. If you use all the bells and whistles typically used for cinema production then sure, but for still photography, once brain, grip & EVF modules are put together it requires no more attention than, say, the Nikon D3X.

Perhaps, we shall see about the real-world usability, portability and ruggedness. but for many, simply the fact that it uses an EVF is going to be a deal killer. Again, not so much of an issue in a studio where you can hook up a large HDTV to use as a viewfinder, or for static landscape work where focus and response time is not a huge issue.

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My preference for a fully- (or even semi-)modular camera that can be upgraded and refined as the industry advances is what excites me.

This is nothing new. The Hasselblad or Mamiya cameras are like that, the Sinar and Toyo large-format cameras are like that. The Nikon F series was like that, up until the F6, which lost the modular viewfinder and was the very last camera in the series.

Now these modular systems are great, but it's not the utopia one would image. By necessity, things change over time, so even the modular components are subject to obsolescence. And almost everybody wants their system to be modular - but in reality, fewer people actually use those features. And they do add expense, and can subtract from ruggedness. Take a look at some of prices on F-series (even old ones) modular accessories.

Overall, it's a great concept, but one with real-world implementation problems. There's a fine balance between modularity and integration.

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They certainly could do quite well as dedicated optics companies and if they do not embrace the notion of modular/component upgradability for their professional & semi-pro models instead of entire camera replacement,

As above - they've already been down that path. They embraced modularity decades ago. But it often just doesn't turn out as well as you'd hope. Especially with the rapid obsolescence of digital technology - people would keep their F-series cameras for a decade or more of active use, because the film format always remained the same. that just doesn't happen with digital.

Tangentially, when was the last time Nikon offered a full-price (or even partial) credit on an old D3 towards a new D3X or Canon on the 1D towards the 1Ds?

I believe it's called a "trade-in". I suspect the rate you would get trading in (or selling used) would beat what RED will eventually come to offer. I don't think that policy is sustainable. Over time, you'll see their "credit" dwindle down. Apple used to give away free OS updates. Now we pay $129 for the privilege. Camera stores used to offer reasonable trade-in prices. Today you'll get loose change.


Perhaps I was a little overly enthusiastic in my declamations.

Yeah. I like RED, but declaring the death of Nikon/Canon is pretty dramatic.

I don't think the markets overlap as much as you believe. Hasselblad never posed a threat to Nikon or Canon. If you wanted to do medium-format work, you'd buy a Hasselblad or Mamiya. But you'd still have your Nikon gear for other work. Few people opted for one or the other - just about every medium-format user owned a 35mm camera in addition to their studio kit.

You are also overlooking what a small portion of the market the professional segment is. Look at how many people think that even a compact DSLR is too huge and awkward for them, and want a snapshot camera no bigger than an iPod. Or who are satisfied with their cellphone as a camera.

Nikon and Canon have no threat to their survival on this front from RED. The bulk of cameras sold are these consumer cameras. Just as the bulk of DSLRs sold are models like the D40, not a D3X. Even semi-pros are going to find RED not to their taste. That basically leaves a very small section of the market where both Nikon/Canon and RED are a good fit. And I think for most of those people, they'll buy a Nikon and a RED, not one or the other.