[heisetax]

As explained to me by son the photographer, glossy screens do not display the correct colors. So the point you have missed is that photographers want & need correct colors to be more accurate in doing their work. This would not mean the same thing if only their display was used to show that photo. But one they are done with their work the purchaser of their service & work will be the one displaying the photo.

No one said that you may like the enhanced colors of a glossy screen. The same thing happens to music. It is recorded to be correct with the bass & treble contols at the neutral point, i.e. in the middle setting. But people turn up the bass, add 30" woofers so that you can feel the sound, not just hear it. A lot of times the treble contol is also turned down. Thus highs are missing. The sound you hear may be what you want to hear, but it is not an accurate representation of what the real sound is. The music people must record their sounds correctly. The same is true when it comes to photography, professional or amatur. Most of the time amatur photos will only be seen by a few, so color may not seem as important.Also as you said, photography is a form of art. Thus the artist will use the colors that they want toshow what they want. This means that color is want they want to show, not necessarily what is accurate.

The result is you can do anything you want. Its just if you are doing it for someone else, having a glossy screen adds a variable that makes it more difficult to come to the finished product. This means that a 16 MB raw photo image may be messured in GBs when the photographer is finished.

Remeber good screens for photographers can easily cost thousands & they still have color correct meters to get the display to display the correct color each time. If accurate clor doesn't mean that much to you then the "more vibrant" colors may be just what you need as you turn your bass controls on your sound system up. But hay you are listening to 64k downloads, so what is accurate mean?

[Biallystock]

Steve_S said:

?not all photographers share your opinion of the glossy screen. Avoiding glare typically amounts to a minor adjustment of the viewing angle. For a laptop, this is trivial. In exchange, the glossy screen provides a much richer and more vibrant display. I specifically chose a glossy screen when I bought my Macbook Pro last spring. I'm sure Apple's own sales analysis made it clear that glossy was preferred, despite the vocal minority on these forums who insist otherwise.

It can be hard being a professional when all the amateurs insist their not well informed views of how things work, are just OK so what's the big deal?

Unfortunately in this market the pros are vastly outnumbered by the amateurs. The coke and fries fans vastly outvote the chefs and nutritionists.

I'd love to be there in person to say, "See that in the screen, that's your reflection. Which layer of the final output do you represent?"

The whole point of shiny things is they reflect and that is exactly what shiny screens do. Moving them only moves the problem. Pretending they don't exist fools only you.

[Steve_S]

heisetax said:

As explained to me by son the photographer, glossy screens do not display the correct colors.

Nothing personal against your "son the photographer", but you have to realize that just "saying so" doesn't make it so. Does your son the photographer have evidence through color calibration equipment that he can share with us to make his point? No? Somehow, I didn't think so.

Quote

The result is you can do anything you want. Its just if you are doing it for someone else, having a glossy screen adds a variable that makes it more difficult to come to the finished product.

No, it doesn't add a variable, it changes a variable. Are you printing on glossy or matte finishes? If you're printing to glossy, then a matte screen would be the unwanted variable. Do you know for certain your intended audience will not be using a glossy screen? I don't think you can make that assumption anymore.

Quote

Remeber good screens for photographers can easily cost thousands & they still have color correct meters to get the display to display the correct color each time.

Excellent point. For this very reason, laptops in general should be considered unsuitable for professional work as opposed to the glossy screen element. Laptops don't even use 8bit displays. Compare the color quality of your best laptop to even just a good 8bit display (like the Apple Cinema display). That doesn't mean laptops can be part of a professional photographer's workflow though, does it? No. But, it does make the glossy vs. matte issue a moot point for "professionals" at least with regard to laptops.

Biallystock said:

>It can be hard being a professional when all the amateurs insist their not well informed views of how things work, are just OK so what's the big deal?
>
>Unfortunately in this market the pros are vastly outnumbered by the amateurs. The coke and fries fans vastly outvote the chefs and nutritionists.
sigh Once again, is this really the best argument you have to support your attack on glossy screens? Look, I'm open minded and am likewise willing to address an argument of substance. How am I supposed to respond to this type of argument? Should I respond with more analogies? Really, if you have a case to make which demonstrates why professional work cannot be done properly on glossy screens, then please provide the evidence. This is very much a "put up or shutup" point in the discussion.

>The whole point of shiny things is they reflect and that is exactly what shiny screens do. Moving them only moves the problem. Pretending they don't exist fools only you.

For starters, in most cases, the brightness of current monitors makes the reflection thing a non-issue for most work. If reflections are truly distracting, you'd have to be pretty dumb not to know how to adjust the angle or possibly even the light source in order to avoid the issue. When you run into other problems in life, do you correct the problem or do you just accept it because "thats just the way it is". Really, are you incapable of adjusting screen angles or adjusting light sources?

[Biallystock]

Steve_S said:

For starters, in most cases, the brightness of current monitors makes the reflection thing a non-issue for most work. If reflections are truly distracting, you'd have to be pretty dumb not to know how to adjust the angle or possibly even the light source in order to avoid the issue. When you run into other problems in life, do you correct the problem or do you just accept it because "thats just the way it is". Really, are you incapable of adjusting screen angles or adjusting light sources?

I got the same rubbishy "It isn't a problem because we say so?" argument when I broached this with the "expert" at the Apple Store. He suddenly shut up when I waved my hand in front of the glossy screen and it was clearly reflected, illuminated by the light of the screen itself.

If you are so blind you can not see, no glossy screen is a problem.

Next, to improve the Macs for audio work, Apple will introduce an annoying whining noise.

Oh wait they've tried that already! But Steve_S just fiddled with the volume and poof it wasn't there.

In my best Monty Python panto voice: "OHHH, no it isn't!"

[heisetax]

I use my screens at a very low back light levels. In my office that means the lowest setting, when I'm out I may push it up a level or two, but never on full brightness. At home I use 2 screens on my 17" PowerBook & 4-6 on my Intel MacPro.

The audio problem with Macs is the lack of bass & treble controls. That sometimes can destroy the wound better than the lowly volume control.

I guess this means that audiophiles are crazy for spending so much to make the sound coming out of their system being the same sound that the recording artist made in the first place. The same goes for computers displays. But the "glossy" screen has solved all of those color correction problems. That plus the brightness control.

[Steve_S]

Biallystock said:

I got the same rubbishy "It isn't a problem because we say so?" argument when I broached this with the "expert" at the Apple Store. He suddenly shut up when I waved my hand in front of the glossy screen and it was clearly reflected, illuminated by the light of the screen itself.

Unfortunately, your current argument remains rubbish. Again, just because you claim there is a problem, doesn't make it so. Second, waving one's hand directly in front of your screen is not normal operating procedure. You're going to great lengths to show that in the most unusual set of circumstances, you can generate a reflection, however minute. At best, it demonstrates your own neurosis which prevents YOU from working in such an environment. Rest assured, many others have no such problems and actually prefer the glossy screens.

Quote

If you are so blind you can not see, no glossy screen is a problem.

Yes, of course, a matte screen wouldn't help in that situation either, now would it? ;)

[pcharles]

Microsoft Office does not include a database program either, and it costs a lot more than iWork.

[pcharles]

worked perfectly fine for me.

[drwatcher]

The only reason I can see adding database functionality to a suite like iWork is for mail merge. Maybe I'm missing something. How else would you use a database in a productivity suite. If you are going to use a database for database purposes, Filemaker is the easiest choice and is a great database application. Bento is so featureless in terms of real database functionality, I have to ask "Why bother?" And why would Apple want to create a separate database that would compete head to head with Filemaker, Inc. products. If you need mail merge, this is available via Numbers.

Frankly, I don't want a database like Bento in the iWork suite. It reminds me of the scaled down apps found in Claris Works and Microsoft Works both of which lacked enough functionality to be very useful. Even Microsoft Office does not contain a database application, unless of course, you want to argue the quasi-database features in Excel. You can do it, but, it is absolutely the worst implementation of a database and it is extremely hard to implement.

As far as the 17" MacBook Pro goes, Apple announced and showed the 17" with both a glossy screen and standard screen during the Keynote at MacWorld. So I don't understand your argument here.

"glitz versus quality" I totally disagree with this comment. iWork 09 has added very useful features in all three applications.

Adding integration with Mathtype and Endnote, brings Pages into the professional word processing arena.

Numbers has over 100 new functions and, while admittedly, the absence of Pivot tables and scripting are significant, the functionality they have added to Numbers provides more than 80% of the functionality of Excel. That is pretty amazing for a spreadsheet in it's infancy. This is ONLY the second volley for Numbers. And you can bet that Apple will bring Numbers to the same functionality of Excel in future releases.

BTW, when Excel was in it's infancy, it took Microsoft years to mature the product to what it has become. Numbers, is easily outpacing Excel in it's growth cycle.

Keynote is the best presentation application I've ever used. It's presentation done the right way as it has everything that's important without choking it with the kitchen sink.

Without question, Apple will continue to mature the iWork suite and provide Mac users with a viable option to Microsoft Office. iWork 09 is an incredible step in the right direction.

[Biallystock]

Well the Apple Store expert went from the Apple official line, there is no problem, to suddenly being embarassed.

?and he is paid to ignore problems in Apple's hardware line, unlike some who do it for free.

Shall we consider your determination NOT to see and NOT to look a Bushism?

Right down to the bland recategorisations of "not normal operating procedure" (looking at the screen), "great lengths" (being in front of the computer) and "unusual set of circumstances" (using my Mac for work).

I am the one generating a reflection with my mighty super powers of personal luminance, although it seems they are so feeble as to only create "minute" reflections. Yet you can still see them from where you are sitting.

Yet who am I and all the others who find this a big obstacle to working on their Macs, and have said so on these forums repeatedly. As to the proof that "many" "actually prefer" the glossy screen, that is obvious given their choice of glossy of or? Oh! there is no choice.

They have all "actually preferred" to have big black logos on the fronts of their iMacs as well!

[DocNo]

Biallystock said:

Shall we consider your determination NOT to see and NOT to look a Bushism?

Oh for the love of...

Look, it's preference. Period.

This is the best display I have seen on any notebook. I don't have to run it at full brightness, and I'm not plagued by reflections.

We get it - for you any reflection perceived (real or otherwise) is unacceptable. So be it.

But the fact remains, you are in the minority. Indeed, I just checked the Apple store and while they are finally sold out of new previous generation 15" matte MacBook Pro's, but they still have some refurbished ones. Four months later. Thank goodness they offered Matt on the 17", although I'm sure the vocal minority will complain about the $50 charge. Hopefully they will offer it for the 15" too in the future just to shut people the @#%$#$ up.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Steve_S has you pegged - I can understand why you would resort to ad hominem attacks instead of addressing his points.

[Biallystock]

The reflections are obvious enough, what is not obvious is the determination to not see them at all costs. According to Steve_S and friends Apple has brilliantly designed a shiny object without reflections.

There is no "preference" when the customer is given no choice.

Providing choice (without a fine attached) would seem good business.

But Apple would rather attack the market that has stood loyally by it all these years (print designers).

Macs used to fit like a glove. The shiny beads and fashion trimmings Apple adds to attract the impulse buyers are increasingly getting in the way of the work.

[drwatcher]

I'm going to try to be respectful of your opinion, but, I genuinely do not understand your position.

You always have a choice. Buy a PC laptop; this should be the greatest cure for your disappointment with Apple.

Would you please explain how Apple is attacking the print designer market? If the glossy screen on the MacBook Pro 15" doesn't meet your needs then buy something else that does.

Or, buy the 17" MacBook Pro that gives the option of a Matte screen. Don't want to pay the additional $50, buy something else.

What shiny beads and fashion trimmings are you talking about. I haven't seen any on the Mac. Period. But if your perception is that Apple is just out there taking advantage of their customers and going for glitz rather than cutting edge, leading the pack, revolutionary products, buy a PC. Or, buy a Linux based PC. Heck, buy a Cray. It's still a free country; you can buy whatever you want, er, can afford or some combination of both.

Every design element in the MacBook is directed towards producing the very best product Apple is capable of producing. Not meeting your needs. Buy a PC.

But continuing to whine on and on about something that cannot change within the span of the blogsphere accomplishes nothing.

Seems to me, this is a feeback forum for "Expo: Apple adds productivity features to iWork"

Any comments you'd like to add about that?

[DocNo]

Biallystock said:

The reflections are obvious enough, what is not obvious is the determination to not see them at all costs.

What's amazing to me is people who assume that their view is the only valid one in the world and refused to admit there are others who think differently then they do.

The reflections are obvious to you. Fine. I'm typing on my MacBook Pro right now (yes, I actually own one), in a window with two stories of south facing windows with full sun - guess what, no distracting reflections. If your so sensitive that you can see reflections that are distracting, then this isn't the notebook for you. For me and obviously the rest of people who seem to be the majority buying glossy screens, it's not an issue.

Like I said, now that they are offering matte on the 17" - hopefully they will offer it on the 15" to shift people from complaining about the glossy display to complaining about the $50 up charge.