[folklore]

rlav said:

Also, it would be nice if Apple's decision to opt for Endnote support in preference to Bookends or Sente could be addressed.

I just assumed that was due to the popularity of Endnote - I didn't even question it. I'm guessing Endnote is popular because it's cross-platform and older than dirt, so everyone knows it's around.

I've used all three (Endnote, Bookends, Sente) and prefer Sente. I've gotten quite used to temporary citations and scanning documents at the end. It's sort of a pain in the ass, but it sure beats typing a bibliography myself.

[Manusnake]

Nobody seems to care about the file format, but it is vital in a cross-platform environnment.

Yes, Pages can save as a Word document, but .doc, not .docx (since there are compatibility pack for Office 2004 on Mac, and every office since 2000 on Win, no excuse to no use it).

Yes, I know, OOXML's manual is huge, so it may be a future feature.

My main complaint is aboute the file formats in iWork (.pages, .numbers, .keynote - though less important-).

What do I do if I have a document on my USB key, I want to open it on a Win/Linux system? You got it: I can't. Or I need to make doubles of each one in the old binary .doc format.

If your a scholar or a scientist, this will happen. You will have to work with other people that don't have iWork, or even Macs.

So, two choices : have iWork perfectly compatible with an universal open format : OOXML or ODF (ODF is harder to implement, since it's XML code is more "application-defined" than OOXML's) or drop Apple's XML format completely. More than being compatible, it should be useable as anative format (you still can't, if you save in a.doc, you have to do a "save as" each time you save, unusable for something bigger than writing a memo for your comissions).

Sorry Apple, but in the real world, most of computers aren't Macs, and every decent Office suite can open doc/docx documents (idem for xls/xlsx). It may not be perfect, but it works (at least, you can read it, even if you have formatting issue). iWork can too, great, but it's not the problem.

I'm far from being a MS fanboy, and I'm aware that MS Office for Mac is behing it's Win counterpart. Though iWork09 might suffice my needs (might, I use some Word functions Pages doesn't have yet, though I like the fact that Apple seems to be working hard on iWork). Still, objectively, MS Office is ahead of iWork in raw power and features to get work done (not to get fancy stuff done, that iWork does it better - I...don't...care... I'm no marketing agent, I'm a scholar).

MS diminishes the price of every new office, so the next iteration (Office 2010/2011) will probably be just 10-20% more than iWork, with 3 licences... So no real difference here.Find a pal and buy it for your Macbooks and his sister's iMac...

I want to like iWork (since it does have some nice features and a good feeling, even if Office 2008 is not bad in that regard), but I just can't use it in real world, were interoperability is so important. By the next 2 major versions, iWork will probably have enough features and power to be used by advanced users, but if it lacks the possibility to use OOXML (or ODF) as a native format, forget all the academic world, that otherwise might love it, especially the students (massive Mac users).

I know it's hard to compete with a 25 years old product, but the end user just doesn't care. Also, it's also a curse to be an old software, since you have to improve your product without scaring your ancien consumers. So it's no real argument (maybe for an Apple fanboy). iWork has no legacy, wich Apple uses quite smartly at its advantage.

In the real world, especially in academics, people use the best product and the more compatible. If it was designed in Cupertino or Seattle is not the problem. Hope iWork10-11 will solve this, otherwise I and lots of other will stick with MS Office, almost against their will (yes, I exagerate a bit, but you get the point).

This whole argument should have been at least discussed in the review, even if it's author might disagree with me.

[Ventzi_Zhechev]

Now, as a scholar to a scholar, I have two points to give you:
1. Turning on system-wide automatic spell checking in MacOSX does make a difference.
2. Most scholars use LaTeX anyway?
And one more thing:
If you really want not just to open a document and post a few comments to it, but rather to do full-scale collaboration, you?d better all use the same tool. There is no pair of tools, where you get 100% feature compatibility anyway.

[Manusnake]

Sorry for the spelling, I'm a French, not an English scholar (though it is not an excuse, really sorry).
LaTex is widely use, true, but my opinion is that there is less and less reasons to use TeX (it would be long to discuss it here).

My point is that my collaborators might not have the same hardware or software than me and, as you know, we don't always work with the same people everytime. They mussn't adapt to my software, I should use something everyone has access to. Apple's format doesn't fit.

Apple should adopt an open standard as its main format (either OOXML, even if its status as "open standard" is critisised, or ODF) to be widely used, that is my point.

I know 100% compatibility doesn't exist, but right now, with Apple's format, it's 0%. There might be something in the middle...

[SallieB]

'Perusing' (I love that word) the many comments in this thread - what comes through loud & clear is the user's anathema (another great word) - the proprietorial nature of the Operating Systems and the software. Fer crying in a bucket - Word Perfect and Word were incompatible on Windows. Give me a break - in their eagerness to give each other technical wedgies - the software designers have been giving the 'wedgies' to us - the users. I have news - they're not going to win the market - only irritate it - thus promoting the use of Open Office and other free - and rational - programs.

[macemx]

There IS real font preview in Pages '09. The switch is right there in General Preferences.

[crescentdave]

I sit corrected. Thank you.

[jkleis]

When I saw the keynote I noted that scientific was mentioned quite a few times. Furthermore,Apple did make a tutorial on how to insert an equation using math-type.

So apparrently Apple does focus on the scientific community - and maybe at first, college students that roughly are to choose between MS office, pages, or open office. So I cannot understand why they do not ask the scientific community about the basic requirements for making scientific reports, or maybe just ask the ones making the iWork manuals.

1) Cross-references (as was already noted in the two first post).

2) Figure and table captions.

These two are a must in any scientific discipline - and also for anyone making for instance a manual for the iWork products (I guess Apple cannot convince the scientific community to do it the Apple way).

3) Equation numbering.

It would be nice with a build in reference system and equation editor - especially, as I guess mathtype/mathmagic would not be the most expensive company to either buy or collaborate with. However, it is not a must - but if support for equations are added, it is absolutely necessary also to support equation numbering.
The above subjects cannot be that hard to implement - especially, if the track and change system is implemented. Neither can it be harder than to implement the instant link update between e.g. numbers and Pages objects. Furthermore, if iWork offered really need cross reference systems - e.g. with possibility to show pictures or equations in the cross-reference menu then they would actually be able to compete with MS office in the educational sector.
4) Latex

Cross-referencing, equationnumbering etc has been implemented for years in Latex - and MS office that has at least 20 years of knowledge does not do a proper job here. However, I must agree with one of the previous "posters", that Latex is not the best common choice. Even if it is, it is really hard to convince the majority of students that this should be the only choice.

I am happy to see that quite a few already have pointed some of my frustrations out. However, with the usual apple pace, we have at least to wait for iWork 10 for any improvement. At least I do not have the impression that Apple does roll out added functionality before the next up-date. Here MS actually does make functionality updates between major updates. Furthermore, Apple typically would not hint if a feature will be implemented or not.

Also the point of open-documents was raised. E.g. with a simple python script I can read open office spreadsheet files without to many probllems. I guess I can do the same with MS OOxml format - and I think that Apple needs to support the open format as it really offers flexibility for the users and makes interoperability between products so much easier.

Finally, I am a bit sad that there seem to be no good Apple GUI choice, to write scientific reports on mac. Actually MS word 2007, does a better job through VM-ware or parallels than MS office 2008mathtype. MS office 2004mathtype works but is infinitely slow.

[wolfe]

Same on Numbers '09. Templets just look topical without actually considering what is needed for the job. To pick one, the education templet didn't have an attendance form nor student assignments for classroom management form nor a seating chart (if student numbers are tied to seats) nor the ideal Numbers '09 use of recording personal info and emergency contact numbers nor clear instructions on how to build additional forms. Wouldn't it have been nice for the teacher to have a random number generator for the math test? Or a crossword puzzle and cloze paragraph generator for weekly word study. If Apple couldn't get good workflow for each topic by time N'09 was released, at least they could have built a download site for additional materials to be added by experts or users.



Where's the list of suppliers in the business section? What about a profit/loss projection?





The blank section seems complete. :^0 :^0 :^0





Not having the essentials for a topic is almost like building a video editor without a timeline! :_| Imagine that if you will.





[quote name='jkleis']

So apparrently Apple does focus on the scientific community - and maybe at first, college students that roughly are to choose between MS office, pages, or open office. So I cannot understand why they do not ask the scientific community about the basic requirements for making scientific reports, or maybe just ask the ones making the iWork manuals.

[SallieB]

I'm not sure how helpful this site will be but I find it so. Lots & lots of templates that can be downloaded free. Check it out, Wolf:

http://www.iworkcomm...com/?category=0

[wolfe]

I'm in awe! I appreciate it when people bring solutions into my life. When will you ceate a templet describing how to create a templet?
[quote name='SallieB']
I'm not sure how helpful this site will be but I find it so. Lots & lots of templates that can be downloaded free. Check it out, Wolf:

www.iworkcommunity.com/?category=0

[rlav]

Not able to give you what you want, but please regard this message as a template for how to spell "template".

[wolfe]

Thank you. Here is a link to Dictionary.com to show that it is spelled/spelt both ways. It's a big world and knowledge is a good thing.


[quote name='rlav']Not able to give you what you want, but please regard this message as a template for how to spell "template".

[rlav]

I had no idea. Thank you.