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Psystar files amended complaint against Apple

#15 User is offline   mdawson Icon

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 05:52 PM

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robco wrote:

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Apple doesn't have the resources to support a huge range of hardware.


Exactly. Because unlike Microsoft, which too many people posting here seem to think that Apple can and needs to emulate, Apple is not a software company. Apple is a PC OEM and the idea that they would put themselves in the position to have to support competing OEMs at their own expense is idiotic at best.
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#16 User is offline   mdawson Icon

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 05:59 PM

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Don_Quixote wrote:

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The central issue here is that to what extent a company or (a copyright owner) can claim its right. In other words, can a company puts whatever it wants in EULA which, then, becomes a "law" that users must conform?

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One thing I noticed from the discussion of this issue in the MacWorld is that many users are not really concerned about this part of the issue--they are more interested in how user experiences will change if Psystar wins.


Or perhaps the people siding with Apple understand the concept of a contractual agreement and are not concerned about the terms of Apple?s EULA because they are 1) legitimate Mac users and 2) see no illegal terms in the EULA.

No one is forcing you or anyone else to use Apple?s operating system. Unless you are willing to pay Apple several million dollars for the ownership of OS X, you can only purchase a license of the OS. Therefore, you must agree to Apple?s terms in order to use Apple?s product, just as you must agree to the terms of any other contract you enter into. If you do not like the terms, then you do not get to use the product or service.
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#17 User is offline   mdawson Icon

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 06:03 PM

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KGBguy wrote:

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Hopefully they win, we need to put an end to Apple madness.


Right. You do not agree with Apple?s business model so the courts should force Apple to change it to the detriment of Apple?s long-term viability.
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#18 User is offline   mdawson Icon

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 06:34 PM

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bgrieco wrote:

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If Microsoft decided to create it's own hardware and restrict Windows to run only on it, we would be seeing a MAJOR worldwide anti-trust lawsuit. Just remember the IE anti-trust suite. So Apple may step on the competition by licensing it's software to it's hardware only and Microsoft may not bundle IE for free and make it part of the OS ?


I have to ask, do you know what a business model is?

Microsoft is not an OEM. Microsoft has never been an OEM. Microsoft is a software company that develops an operating system for an open platform that Microsoft does not own. Microsoft spent the better part of the late-1980s and 1990s using every underhanded and many unlawful tactics to make any other operating system designed for that same open platform undesirable and even went as far as threatening PC OEMs denial of licensing if they dared to offer PCs with any other operating system.

Microsoft?s bullying resulted in Windows not only being the predominant OS on x86 systems, but allowed Microsoft to become a monopoly in the entire PC market as a whole. Microsoft then used that monopoly power to position Office as the dominant productivity suite, which is still a de facto standard to this day. Microsoft then used their monopoly position to destroy Netscape by offering IE pre-installed with Windows for free. Netscape?s browser was their only product and they found themselves having to go from a profitable $30 a copy for Netscape Navigator to completely cannibalizing their profit base at $0 per copy.

It is for these reasons that Microsoft was tried and found guilty of monopoly abuse and anti-trust not only in the United States but also in the European Union and East Asian courts. Therefore, if Microsoft were to suddenly decide to start making Windows PCs and ceased OEM licensing it would be a huge anti-trust violation because of Microsoft?s position in the PC market for operating systems. At nearly 90 percent of all PC sales and with most of the world dependent on Windows-only software, locking Windows to a Microsoft PC would catapult Microsoft?s profits at the expense of the entire PC industry sans Apple.

Apple owns the Macintosh platform. Let me repeat that for you, Apple owns the Macintosh platform. The hardware is designed and manufactured by Apple. The operating system was designed and developed by Apple for Apple?s hardware. That is and has always been the case since the first Mac was introduced in 1984. Nothing about that has changed.

Therefore, Apple has the right to do with Mac products, which they also own, as they wish. The Mac platform has never been open and the one time that Apple did permit Mac clones, those clones had to be manufactured to Apple?s demanding specifications. Therefore, there is no anti-trust suit because Apple cannot collude with itself. Secondly, other OEMs cannot offer the Mac experience without Apple?s consent because Apple owns the platform. Therefore, Psystar has no more a right to sell computers with OS X than Wendy?s has the right to sell Big Macs as their own ?brand?.

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bgrieco wrote:

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The Intel processors shown that the difference between a mac and a PC is indeed the software.


The above statement, which has been used by many Psystar supporters, shows your ignorance about hardware. Neither a single chip does not make a computer, nor does the periphery components that are attached to that computer. Apple?s decision to use standard periphery components and migrate to Intel?s x86 architecture does not require a forfeiture of the ownership of a platform that Apple created and has exclusively maintained for 25 years.
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#19 User is offline   tfrogh Icon

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 08:01 PM

Do you actually own a Dell? Yes it comes from the Factory and works spiffy. What about when you wipe and reinstall? Then where are all those drivers? Windows certainly doesn't have them. Oh yeah, what about the update for the BIOS. Nope, nobody ever told you it was out there. No other manufacturer takes care of the tech side like Apple. I can pop 10.5 install disc in any supported machine and every driver will be there. Doesn't matter if it is an 867 12" Powerbook 1.42ghz G4 MacMini or a 1st Gen MacPro with BTO Graphics. 10.4 was even more awesome. All of the machines over all those years 100% supported on one disc. It just works. HP, Dell, IBM, Sony...none of them have that simplicity. My mother could reinstall OS X and she is a computer ditz. Just figuring out which key combination on a PC gets you to a boot menu is maddening.



Start planning now. Thanks to Pystar I bet there will be no more Retail OS X boxes when 10.6 ships. It will be upgrade or bundled new.



Tom
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#20 User is offline   derekc Icon

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 09:13 PM

Desperation sets in at Psystar. I'm not surprised their 'anti-trust' rubbish got thrown out of court. I AM surprised that copyright misuse was accepted as a tactic. It is utter rubbish and will fail. Apple have total control over the use of their copyrighted property.
Usually the plaintiffs are blamed for frivolous lawsuits. But one must also point at the judges who approve such lawsuits as well. Very naughty Judge William Alsup. Perhaps the accused in such cases, here being Apple, should have the ability to sue the court for incompetence. Perhaps the taxpayers should have the right to sue the specific judges for wasting their money on pointless and blatantly insubstantial cases.
Then let's go further and allow the suing of Congress and the Executive Branch here in the USA for wasting taxpayer's money and allowing the murder of military personnel over illegal and frivolous wars, such as Iraq.
Wouldn't it be amazing if there were dire repercussions for bureaucratic bumbling? Would it change anything? Or would it just eat more time and money?
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#21 User is offline   orgopete Icon

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 01:44 AM

This does become interesting as I look up the issues being cited. In some cases, the legal precedents are weird, in others, a little more clear cut.

This is what I have found. In a discussion of copyright misuse, the cited case of Lasercomb v Holliday is definitely weird with infringement, fraud, and and breach of contract over a software license. Here, the copyright misuse barred the rightful application of a valid copyright to the plaintiff until they remedied their misuse. Ugh.

The copyright misuse stems more clearly from patent misuse. Here, the principle is easier to understand, though the law, the specifics, and the application are cloudy. A good example of the patent misuse case is Morton v Suppiger.
>Duke Law; Morton v Coppinger
>The doctrine of patent misuse--unenforceability of a patent as a penalty for its improper use--was firmly established in Morton Salt Co. v. G. S. Suppiger Co. Morton Salt, the owner of a patent for a machine used for depositing salt tablets into canned food, sued a competitor for infringement. As a condition for licensing its patent, Morton Salt required licensees to use its unpatented salt tablets. The Supreme Court found this condition to be an attempt "to secure an exclusive right or limited monopoly not granted by the Patent Office and which it is contrary to public policy to grant." The Court thus held that Morton Salt?s patent was unenforceable until Morton Salt corrected its improper licensing practices.

However, the subject of the Duke Law article by Homiller is noting the recession of the courts from patent misuse cases. While Homiller cites one of the first principles of patent misuse is, "Requiring a licensee to purchase unpatented materials from the licensor (tying)," it is not clear about requiring the licensee to purchase patented materials.

>Silverman cites,
>Among other antitrust violations involving patents are attempts to, by agreement, control the resale price of a patented product and the use of a patent on one product as a means to coerce the sale of another product or the sale or license of another patent.
While speculative on my part, I am guessing that was the grounds by which Psystar first sought their counterclaims against Apple. Because monopolistic can be interpreted in different ways, the judge found that Apple had not operated monopolistically in competing in the personal computer market. The judge has allowed Psystar to restate their countersuit and I believe they are using the principle I have referred to.

What makes this more interesting is that Psystar has claimed that some of Apple's code placed on their hardware is for the purpose of rendering the Apple OS inoperable if it fails to find the hardware code. (I lost the citation.) I don't think I would want to be a lawyer on that one. I thought that was the strategy that Apple should or could utilize. I think I would have to consult a lawyer to determine if that would invalidate my patent/copyright on the "unclean hands" principle.

This last thought I am going to just wing it. In looking at past cases and principles, Justice Douglas has asserted that patents are a privilege, but a privilege conditioned to public purpose. And, patents trade anti-competitive practices in exchange for a public good. The gist I was getting is that you cannot take advantage of the patent system to extend or expand your exclusivity beyond the actual patent itself.

A Federal Circuit certified a test for misuse in the context of tying, 1) are the items inseparable, 2) determine if the item is a staple and 3) determine whether in fact they are tied together. Again, I can expect this to be equally complicated. The question will become whether Apple has used its copyright/license in a manner that extends that license beyond what the Federal copyright and patent statues allow and whether this constitutes an anti-competitive practice.

Because Apple has copyrighted material and patents it is defending, I am inferring from opinions I have read, that Apple will be in the drivers seat in these cases. Without the countersuit being drafted by Psystar, that would probably mean Apple would win. (Remember, I am NOT a lawyer.) However, if Psystar can demonstrate to the court that Apple had extended its copyright beyond the scope of it grant, namely to tie it to its hardware, that can constitute copyright misuse. I can imagine this becomes sticky as they will attempt to show that the hardware is generic and therefore the bars to the use of OS X are designed to be anti-competitive. That appears to be the case. The Hackintosh (and the iPhone hackers) have been able to write software that allow OS X to run on generic hardware. If Psystar can show Apple inserts malware, I should be surprised if Apple should win its suit.

Again, I am not a lawyer. I cannot predict the outcome of this case. I certainly would not predict the demise of Apple computer. I doubt this case will exhaust opportunities Apple may have to remain competitive. It is easy to comprehend the desire of Apple or any manufacturer to resist fixing it operating system into the hardware of the computers as it would greatly increase upgrade difficulties and costs. Not doing so, I predict will open the doors to its competitors. Interestingly, MacRumors is reporting that Apple is going to renovate their retail stores and focus on software and user experience.
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#22 User is offline   randyswanston Icon

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 02:20 AM

I completely agree with you, most of the people are confused about this..
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#23 User is offline   Felix001 Icon

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 04:51 AM

I'm still betting Apple will settle this out of court before the case actually goes to the jury for a verdict. The longer they wait though, the stronger Psystar's hand becomes.

Obviously Apple would like to get a sense of how this legal argument is going to play in the courtroom as well as in the public opinion court, but waiting has its perils.

Either way, the stakes are very, very high for Apple and the presiding judge seems inclined to give Psystar every opportunity to succeed (within legal boundaries w/o opening the case up to being overturned on appeal).

IMO, Apple will compromise and settle before the jury walks out to deliberate. And we'll likely see something along the lines of one of the 'solutions' already articulated in earlier posts...two tier licensing w/o support, no more stand-alone OS upgrades, etc. But it'll still have to be something Psystar can live with and more attractive to them than rolling the dice on a jury verdict.

I'm finding the legal maneuvering in this case to be absolutely fascinating.
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#24 User is offline   iPodthereforeIam Icon

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 06:19 AM

But if enough people buy from another hardware MFR then Apple goes broke and no one wins. Not even the alternative MFR's of hardware. The innovation could potentially die from lack of revenue. Apples business model is not supposed to be the same as MicroSofts.
I still say the widget that Apple builds should stay their own or else it becomes A lesser widget. (Sucky product comes to my mind.)
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#25 User is offline   jragosta Icon

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 07:28 AM

"Desperation sets in at Psystar. I'm not surprised their 'anti-trust' rubbish got thrown out of court. I AM surprised that copyright misuse was accepted as a tactic. It is utter rubbish and will fail. Apple have total control over the use of their copyrighted property.

Usually the plaintiffs are blamed for frivolous lawsuits. But one must also point at the judges who approve such lawsuits as well. Very naughty Judge William Alsup. Perhaps the accused in such cases, here being Apple, should have the ability to sue the court for incompetence. Perhaps the taxpayers should have the right to sue the specific judges for wasting their money on pointless and blatantly insubstantial cases."

That's not fair.

The judge did not say that Psystar had a case. He merely ruled that Psystar is within their rights to go ahead and try to present a case. In major cases like this one, the judge is going to give the plaintiff a great deal of leeway on procedural matters so that there is less risk of his decision being overturned. Essentially, Psystar will not be able to claim that they were not given adequate opportunity to present their case.

That doesn't mean that the judge is going to rule in their favor - or that he's leaning any direction at all.

Frankly, this is just as bogus as the antitrust case (by using this silly logic, BMW should allow me to put their engine programming firmware into a Yugo because it would be 'wrong' to tie their firmware to hardware), and I expect that Psystar will be appropriately shot down.

The real problem is overseas, particularly Europe, where intellectual property rights are not as strong as they are here. Under German law, for example, Apple is going to have a harder time shutting down cloners. That doesn't mean they can't do it, but it will be harder.

I just can't figure out why Apple doesn't label the retail boxes 'UPGRADE VERSION' in big letters. That would greatly strengthen their position, even overseas.
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#26 User is offline   mdawson Icon

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 08:33 AM

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Felix001 wrote:

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I'm still betting Apple will settle this out of court before the case actually goes to the jury for a verdict. The longer they wait though, the stronger Psystar's hand becomes.


How does Psystar?s case get stronger the longer Apple waits for trial. Apple waited to see what Psystar was doing when the clones were first announced and once Psystar actually started selling clones and Apple?s legal team researched on what grounds they could persecute Psystar, Apple took action. It is not as if Apple is sitting quietly on the sidelines while Psystar misappropriates their intellectual property. You seem to be confusing Apple?s position to take action once all the cards are on the table with these frivolous patent lawsuits from companies that get patents, do nothing then sue others for patent infringement after they have had a highly successful product on the market for years.

Secondly, Apple is not in the wrong, so it is unlikely that they will opt to settle out of court. If anyone will wish to settle it will be Psystar because they know that they are full of s?.

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Felix001 wrote:

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Either way, the stakes are very, very high for Apple and the presiding judge seems inclined to give Psystar every opportunity to succeed (within legal boundaries w/o opening the case up to being overturned on appeal).


I think jragosta has covered this point very well. If anything, early indicators are that Judge Alsup sees Psystar for what it is. He dismissed Psystar?s original anti-trust claim against Apple, because any high school student in an economics class should be able to figure out that Apple cannot collude with itself to control their product nor does Apple hold a large enough portion of the PC market to engage in anti-trust practices to begin with.

Judge Alsup threw out a charge that was clearly bogus, but that does not mean that he will not give Psystar their day in court, nor does it mean that Apple should be trembling in their boots. Apple would not have filed suit against Psystar if they were not willing to take this all the way.

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Felix001 wrote:

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IMO, Apple will compromise and settle before the jury walks out to deliberate.

Apple v. Psystar, et al., is not a criminal trial so it I recall correctly there is no jury, just as there was no jury in the DOJ v. Microsoft case. Unless a trial is against corporate individuals that have committed one or more felonies, juries lack the legal expertise required to preside over a case of corporate law.
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#27 User is offline   rumplestiltskin Icon

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 08:36 AM

Apple doesn't have to support other mfr's machines. Apple says that you should run MacOSX on Macs. Fine. If people want to build Hackint0shes and attempt to run OSX on them, fine; just don't call Apple if something goes wrong. Call upon your "community of hackers" to fix things...just like the Linux folks have to do.
There will always be some people who value their time at zero dollars; they buy a cheap clone and struggle for hours (or days) to get it to work. You'll never convince those folks to buy a real Apple-branded Macintosh. However, those who -do- value their time understand that Apple's hardware and software (and, more importantly, their support) are worth every penny.
Let Psystar win. Apple can amend its EULA to say "Running this on something other than a genuine Mac? Don't call us for help."
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#28 User is offline   aceshelman Icon

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:46 AM

rumplestiltskin said:

Apple doesn't have to support other mfr's machines. Apple says that you should run MacOSX on Macs. Fine. If people want to build Hackint0shes and attempt to run OSX on them, fine; just don't call Apple if something goes wrong. Call upon your "community of hackers" to fix things...just like the Linux folks have to do.

There will always be some people who value their time at zero dollars; they buy a cheap clone and struggle for hours (or days) to get it to work. You'll never convince those folks to buy a real Apple-branded Macintosh. However, those who -do- value their time understand that Apple's hardware and software (and, more importantly, their support) are worth every penny.

Let Psystar win. Apple can amend its EULA to say "Running this on something other than a genuine Mac? Don't call us for help."

Exactly. Pystar can't hurt apple by selling their current machines with Mac OS X. A bunch of you seem to think the DOOM IS TOO FULL OF DOOOM! but really, those Psystar buyers weren't going to buy Apple machines. And if Apple really wants to put a torpedo in Psystar it can do it easily by offering a mid tower at a reasonable price (i.e. more expensive than Psystar's but worth every penny for the genuine apple experience). This is "good for apple" IMO and everyone's cries of DOOM over this are way over blown.
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