[sporks]

Not hype at all.

Some examples.

One: The Smart menu in Windows 7 (formerly the Start menu). It is a kludge workaround for the fact that the Windows OS uses hard-coded paths for applications and after nearly 20 years STILL clings to 8.3 file names. Take a look at the Program Files directory. Yes, it's STILL called winword.exe.

Two: Windows 7 Control Panel. It is so difficult to find anything in it, most people just resort to typing in the control panel they want in the search field.

Three: File names. Illegal file character names in Windows on NTFS volumes: / ? < > : * | " and any character you can type with the Ctrl key. In addition to these characters, the following conventions are also illegal:
Placing a space at the end of the name
Placing a period at the end of the name

The following file names are also reserved under Windows:
com1, com2, com3, com4, com5, com6, com7, com8, com9, lpt1, lpt2, lpt3, lpt4, lpt5, lpt6, lpt7, lpt8, lpt9, con, nul, and prn

Illegal file character names in OS X :
Folders may not begin with a dot (.)

Four: Windows is still requires volumes to be assigned to drive letters, and paths to drives to be specified via drive letters. The first hard drive in the system must be drive C:

Five: Windows Vista and earlier cannot be installed on and boot from external hard drives.


These are not hype. These are significant differences in quality, technology and OS sophistication.

[mjtomlin]

Don't really care for the new tabs at the top. Couldn't care less who did it first, would rather not see it in Safari, so I don't. Type the following at the command line:

$ defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop -bool NO

Restart Safari 4. No more tabs at top. So it wasn't really a swift kick in the pants, was more like lipstick and eye shadow that's easily wiped off. And I personally don't think Apple really gives a crap which browser you use, as long as it's one that conforms and adheres to web standards. There are a ton of other browsers, based off WebKit and Gecko, go use one of them if you need feature X and feature Y. Safari is a very simple, extension free browser, which is exactly what I prefer. I just hope Apple doesn't add too many new things to it in the final release.
Message was edited by: mjtomlin

[natmusak]

sporks said:

Tabs as title bar is a horrible interface idea. I'm embarrassed for Apple in having a "New Coke" moment because of the upstart kid on the block.

By eliminating the Windows titlebar, you've broken the Window paradigm. Is the window a container? Minimize it and yes. Grab and drag a tab, and yes, they all move like they belong to the same window. Click the window "title" to bring it to the front? No. The tab you select comes to the front at the same time as the window, so now they are separate. It turns the 25 year old human interface concept of the window into some nightmare chimera.

It's something a Windows developer would come up with: throw more crap and complexity in the interface to show how powerful and flexible you are and Fitz' law be damned.

While I totally get your point, which result is more logical? Bringing fourth the tab you clicked on, or bringing fourth the tab you didn't?

What this new system requires is more precise clicking because the target is now the tab you want, instead of the window's top border.

However, clicking and dragging on any of Safari 4's tabs when it's not the foremost window will result in the window moving and more importantly, when you let go, it remains on the originally active tab.

So depending on how you organize your different windows, this could be considered an advantage if you organize them as I think you are suggesting - all top window borders cascading - because before you could only select that window, even if you had multiple tabs. Now you'll be able to see and select from all the tabs without having to 1) click on window border 2) click on desired tab.

And of course, if you use command-tab/ctrl-tab, Expose, the Dock, or any number of other third party controllers (Quicksilver, LaunchBar, etc.), it's almost a non-issue. I'm not even factoring in the millions of casual users who to this day don't know, or even understand the concept of, tabbed browsing regardless of the browser they choose.

Not trying to be an apologist. I'm not sure I agree with Apple's choice yet and they may very well reconsider it as I'm sure they're going to get plenty of requests to do so. They might even do one of those rare options between the two. :D

[montgomery_burns]

Apple is the source of all innovation. Even when someone else has a seemingly good idea, it means nothing unless it came from Apple. Apple doesn't need anyone else to give them an idea about anything. Apple doesn't need to care about what customers want. If Apple ever does anything that seems to be what people asked for, it has nothing to do with anybody. It is because Apple meant to do it all along, even when Steve Jobs was telling everyone the complete opposite. Apple is never wrong, even when they completely contradict themselves. Implying that Apple would waste their time responding to customers is just, to quote bynkii's favorite word: Strawman Strawman Strawman Strawman Strawman Strawman Strawman

[doglesby]

George76 said:

I sure wish Apple would spend less time trying to shave another millimeter off the size of the iMac and Macbook Air and concentrate on fixing the known (and serious) issues with its core software.

If the engineers responsible for shaving another millimeter off the iMac and MBA worked on issues with core software, memory leaks would be the least of your problems.

[Rhywun]

I prefer AdBlock - no configuration whatsoever. I've used Opera in the past (on Windows) and it's got some nice features but it's just too weird for me.

[Rhywun]

montgomery_burns said:

... Apple is never wrong ...

Why yes, an over-the-top, snide parody of an enthusiastic Mac user is proof of... what, exactly?

[SlotcarBob]

Go to then Terminal and type this:

defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop -bool NO

Then restart Safari. Tell me that's not better. Well, I like it this way better.

http://pastie.textmate.org/398861
More return to normalcy hacks.

[doglesby]

sporks said:

One: The Smart menu in Windows 7 (formerly the Start menu). It is a kludge workaround for the fact that the Windows OS uses hard-coded paths for applications and after nearly 20 years STILL clings to 8.3 file names. Take a look at the Program Files directory. Yes, it's STILL called winword.exe.

Irrelevant implementation details. That people use 8.3 file names is but a choice, the system doesn't enforce it. In fact, the only people who care what the name of the Word exe file is probably want it to stay the same.

Quote

Two: Windows 7 Control Panel. It is so difficult to find anything in it, most people just resort to typing in the control panel they want in the search field.

But they can find things and Mac OS X has a search field too.

Quote

Three: File names. Illegal file character names in Windows on NTFS volumes: / ? < > : * | " and any character you can type with the Ctrl key. In addition to these characters, the following conventions are also illegal:
Placing a space at the end of the name
Placing a period at the end of the name

That is pretty pathetic and has caused me problems.

Quote

The following file names are also reserved under Windows:
com1, com2, com3, com4, com5, com6, com7, com8, com9, lpt1, lpt2, lpt3, lpt4, lpt5, lpt6, lpt7, lpt8, lpt9, con, nul, and prn

meh.

Quote

Illegal file character names in OS X :
Folders may not begin with a dot (.)

I find it annoying that the Finder hides files that start with a dot. Colons could be escaped on the command line (like spaces and slashes), why not allow them?
Four: Windows is still requires volumes to be assigned to drive letters, and paths to drives to be specified via drive letters. The first hard drive in the system must be drive C:
Important if you have a lot of drives (particularly external ones you might want to disconnect), but you can name them, no? Making the letter assignment a non-issue.
Five: Windows Vista and earlier cannot be installed on and boot from external hard drives.
Really? I didn't even know that.

Also important to me (but arguably a pet peeve), when I undock my laptop at work, I go from a 2-display setup to just the integrated display on my laptop. Windows knows this, I can't move my cursor offscreen and sometimes windows move from the secondary to primary (only) display. However, even when Outlook is running on my primary display, it opens messages on the secondary display that isn't even connected! Do you know how to get to offscreen windows? You right click on the task bar, select Move, click an arrow key, and drag the window onto your display. Don't forget to hit the arrow key, it doesn't work if you don't do that. And don't get me started on the fundamental flaws in window management...
These are not hype. These are significant differences in quality, technology and OS sophistication.
Some of them, maybe. More of an issue would be the completely separate 64 bit OS. Everyone running Mac OS X on a 64 bit processor is getting some level of 64 bit capability. Pretty much every PC sold today has a 32 bit OS running on a 64 bit processor.

These are reasonable examples, but in the real world they aren't sufficient to support a blanket statement that Mac OS X is better. Better for you, better for me, even better engineered; but that doesn't necessarily reflect the criteria of people looking for a machine. However, if you are looking for the platform best suited for the long term, these fundamental engineering issues come into play. Windows is an albatross, and I have a hard time seeing Microsoft keep up--especially when it is letting people go (and overpaying them to boot).

[doglesby]

Google did it better. As I've said elsewhere, Tabs in the title bar makes sense on Windows because people tend to maximize their windows, giving them a Fitts's Law benefit when the tabs are on the title bar. However, even Chrome leaves the top third of the title bar free when windows are not maximized. So you still have a title bar in Chrome rather than this mixed up metaphor where you drag a window by dragging a tab.
I think putting the tabs under the title bar would make a lot of sense. As for screen real estate, you could (optionally, of course) auto-hide the toolbar and/or bookmarks bar (and the tab bar too). The toolbar is pretty useless until you bring your mouse up to it, the title bar usually tells you where you are. This is what the iPhone does, why are we taking the bad iPhone elements (reload in the location field right where the clear button belongs) and not the good?

[natmusak]

doglesby said:

Google did it better. As I've said elsewhere, Tabs in the title bar makes sense on Windows because people tend to maximize their windows, giving them a Fitts's Law benefit when the tabs are on the title bar. However, even Chrome leaves the top third of the title bar free when windows are not maximized. So you still have a title bar in Chrome rather than this mixed up metaphor where you drag a window by dragging a tab.

Sorry, that's not the case.

1. Start Safari 4 and open a few tabs.

2. Click and drag on one of those non-active tabs (obviously not on the little grip that lets you move/break out tabs into their own windows).

3. Move the window around a bit if you like and then let go. What happens?

Right, the originally active tab is still the active tab. ;)

Quote

I think putting the tabs under the title bar would make a lot of sense. As for screen real estate, you could (optionally, of course) auto-hide the toolbar and/or bookmarks bar (and the tab bar too). The toolbar is pretty useless until you bring your mouse up to it, the title bar usually tells you where you are. This is what the iPhone does, why are we taking the bad iPhone elements (reload in the location field right where the clear button belongs) and not the good?

I don't see how the placement of MobileSafari's refresh button is bad. It makes sense considering how little space you have to cover with your finger to tap it. Safari 4 on the Mac is different because there's more horizontal space, but that can be adjusted with by clicking and dragging the between the address bar and Google search bar.

It's also just different. We're all used to the refresh button being on the left. With time, this will likely become less of a chore because we'll be used to its new location. Also, if you want a place to move the window around (besides the process I detailed above), you can click and drag any of the empty space in the bookmarks bar (unless you have a ton of bookmarks there).

[doglesby]

[quote name='natmusak']
>

doglesby said:

> Google did it better. As I've said elsewhere, Tabs in the title bar makes sense on Windows because people tend to maximize their windows, giving them a Fitts's Law benefit when the tabs are on the title bar. However, even Chrome leaves the top third of the title bar free when windows are not maximized. So you still have a title bar in Chrome rather than this mixed up metaphor where you drag a window by dragging a tab.
Sorry, that's not the case.

1. Start Safari 4 and open a few tabs.

2. Click and drag on one of those non-active tabs (obviously not on the little grip that lets you move/break out tabs into their own windows).

3. Move the window around a bit if you like and then let go. What happens?

Right, the originally active tab is still the active tab. ;)

I never said otherwise. What I said is that you grab a tab to drag the window, which is exactly what you describe. I never said word one about changing active tabs.

[natmusak]

doglesby said:

I never said otherwise. What I said is that you grab a tab to drag the window, which is exactly what you describe. I never said word one about changing active tabs.

Hmm, you said:

So you still have a title bar in Chrome rather than this mixed up metaphor where you drag a window by dragging a tab.

The way I read the underlined part, it seems to be false. You do not have to "drag a window by dragging a tab," or another way of putting that, you do not have to drag a tab to drag a window. By drag I thought you meant move. I know, probably sounds like I'm trying to be right but that's just how I read it. :D

Could you clarify what you mean by "drag the window"? :)

[doglesby]

In Chrome, you can grab a tab by clicking anywhere within the tab (except the close box); once you do so, you can move the tab to a new position or pull it into a new window. In Safari, you have to grab the little handle to do that. If you grab anywhere else, you have reached through to the title bar. So your mouse is over a tab, but your are interacting with the entire window. This is why Google wisely left part of the title bar visible when the widow isn't magnified. No special part of a tab to grab hold of, no moving a set of tabs by grabbing one. Grab the title bar to move a window full of tabs, grab the tab to move it relative to the others. It's really very obvious and doesn't leave the user wondering "how do I move this window out of the way?"