[Nobody]

I'm having a STRANGE problem. I'll back up to Friday, 'cause I don't know if what happened to me on Friday has anything to do with anything.
1. On Friday, I let my Software Update take me to 10.2.5.
2. After reboot, the screen froze after a couple of minutes.
3. After three more reboots, couldn't even get to my desktop icons without freezing.
4. I archived and installed from my Jaguar CDs, then updated back to 10.2.4 ONLY, not 10.2.5.
5. Today I was having trouble saving files. First, I tried Disk Utility, and it found 2 errors (Thread ID and the number of files, but couldn't repair them). I also tried rebooting with Control-S, typing fsck -y, did that 3 times, same errors, couldn't repair them. I thought maybe I'd try archive/installing yet AGAIN, but inserted my disk back in the drive and it rejects it after about 60 secs. And no, it's not scratched, my drive now ejects ALL disks after about that long. I can no longer use any CD-Rom.
6. Help me?? Somebody? I looked at Apple Knowledge Base, and all their troubleshooting stuff seems to be about disks that won't eject, not my problem.
Ramona
(later addendum)
I've now called the AppleCare folk (extended warranty here), and it only served to make me more irritated. The dude I spoke to (who was not even that polite), said he had no idea and had heard nothing about anyone's CD drive not accepting new CD-Roms. I have a hard time believing this problem is THAT unique to me when I don't do anything THAT unique with my computer (tweak the OS, use the terminal that often, etc.). I don't even use the CD-Rom drive that often! In addition, he DID admit to me that they had had many reports of various (by that I mean an assortment of problems (according to him) other than something just like mine) problems with various computers that were all late model as a result of 10.2.5. Even if many or even MOST of you updated just fine (and celebrate your good luck if you did (but while you're doing that please spare me a chorus of "worked for me!", if you please, WOULD NOT HELP)), according to this guy, we are at least talking significant minority here. I have a G4 that was state-of-the-art less than 2 years ago when I bought it. I'm really beginning to feel that Apple needs to do a much better job of beta-testing their updates before release. (Anyone from Apple reading this???) I think in their glee to use the Software Update thing and release new features, they're really falling short on the testing. I have a late model computer, I don't do anything that odd with it or with the OS, it's still under warranty, they admitted that 10.2.5 fd it, and they're at a loss as to how to fix it. (Archive and re-Install AGAIN or complete erase (what a nightmare) and reinstall being their only advice, but BOTH being impossible for me due to CD-Rom drive problems.)
Yeah, since it's still under warranty, I could take it to the local Apple repair shop and have them mess around with it, but given that backlog that will take at least 2 weeks, and I need my computer in the meantime. I'd just really like it if Apple could get a little more careful with this "update" stuff they're churning out. I, for one, will not be an early adopter of any ever again.
Ramona

[d00d]

Can you boot into OS 9? If you can and you can insert the disk without it being spit out, then it is an OS X problem. If you can't, there is something wrong with your CD drive (physically).
If it's simply an OS X problem (tested above), my suggestion to you is to backup, erase, and resintall. The fact that you have disk errors that can't be fixed suggests that you have some major file system errors, which could be the root of your CD problem, especially if one of the compromised files is a driver for your drive. Erasing would be the surest way to eliminate that possibility.
If you feel that being an "early adopter" is a problem, then by all means, wait. However, how long you wait will not change how a given update will affect your computer. Furthermore, very rarely are there consistent opinions about any given update (except for the time/date bug in 10.2.4) for any Mac. That's why you'll get the frequent "all good here" postings when someone warns about installing an update on a given computer. You can wait and see to make sure there are no problems, but that will never happen. Invariably, there will be someone with your particular computer that will have a problem with an update, either because of a mistake on Apple's part or because of some kind of disk error or weird configuration issue. As far as the mistake on Apple's part, I've found those problems to be few and far between. I've installed just about every update on both of my computers and have yet to experience a problem as a result. Apple does fairly thorough testing and would be impossible for them to eliminate all errors from an update because of the nearly infinite number of configurations of computers (the number of errors in an update versus time spent testing is most likely an asymptotic relationship like 1/n). You may think that they picked an amount of time too small and allowed too many errors, but for the most part, I think they do a good job and the correct amount of time to test is entirely subjective. I don't think they're "trigger happy" with their updates.

[Nobody]

I thank you for your feedback, really I do, but I feel you are offbase here with me. Yes, I can boot into OS 9, but the disks still spit out without being read. I have a really hard time believing this problem is related to a hardware issue with my drive, because it worked just fine until this other stuff went kablooey just 2 days previous right when I installed the new update.
I can't reinstall, because as a result of this problem I can no longer insert disks and have them be read. Including my original Jaguar install disks!
Personally, I also had a problem with an earlier 10.x update. As far as your sympathy for the "nearly infinite number of configurations of computers," I don't find sympathy for Apple on that front, I find sympathy for their users. If their "updates" don't work for their "nearly infinite number of configurations of computers" at least 2 years back in terms of purchase, I think SOMETHING IS SERIOUSLY WRONG. I'm not talking about third party peripherals or funky use of all manner of software, I'm talking JUST THE CRAP APPLE SENT ME AND THEIR OWN OS. And again, the AppleCare dude I spoke to admitted just that (that there were a large number of users reporting problems with this update). If that (what they send people) is too many computer configurations for them to keep track of when they beta-test (again, myself having done nothing weird with anything) they ought seriously look at their update plan or the fact they've manufactured too many configurations to adequately support. I don't think 2 years back and with a warranty is too much to ask in terms of helping me out with their own friggin' update.
(I'm adding this on later)
Just so anyone reading this knows, I'm in my 30's and have been using Mac's since I was 19. I'm a dedicated Mac user, really I am. My disgust with this issue is not intended to promote Windoze or somesuch (god forbid, I'm sure they are much worse) but to encourage Apple to get with the program. I sincerely feel I've been wronged here, but I'm posting what I'm posting in an effort to encourage improvement. OK, said my peace. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[d00d]

I'm sorry you're having problems, but you don't need to get so angry at me, or use borderline profanity. OS X is completely separate from OS 9 so the disk issue is physical, whether it be the CD drive is defective or something else failed. You could try checking the connections in your computer and make sure they're not loose. I can't think of a way in which a piece of software could make a piece of hardware fail.
As far as the nearly infinite number of configurations, this is true of any single manfactured computer. When I say configurations, I'm not just talking about the peripherals you attach. I'm talking about a more classical meaning of configurations in which configuration includes the contents of your hard drive and RAM. It is impossible for them to eliminate the possibility of errors, even on a single machine. As for the support part, they are doing their part. As you said, you can take it back to a repair shop and they will fix it, or replace what's broken. I agree it's an inconvenience, but fully adequate solution, just as good as most companies are willing to do.

[Wimek]

I had a hardware problem last year with my G4 and the shop I bought it from (MacSupport in The Netherlands) also needed more than a week to repair it. However, they directly offered me a replacement machine during that time: they switched the hard disk and I could still do my work!
You could try and ask for a temporary replacement....
Wimek

[Grant_G]

In reply to:

---

I can't think of a way in which a piece of software could make a piece of hardware fail.

---

d00d
I think perhaps you DID come up with a very plausible explanation in your earlier response to Ramona. It could very well be that there's a corrupted place on her hard drive that contains some of the driver information for the CD player. And it could have been moved there during the upgrade process. So you're technically correct in the above quote, but IMO have hit on a reasonable reply nonetheless.
G

[d00d]

Grant, the only problem with the corrupted driver theory is that the drive doesn't work in OS 9 either. The chances that the two drivers would be corrupted independently are so small that I doubt that's the explanation.

[Grant_G]

Point taken, and correctamundo!
G /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[SueG]

Dear Ramona,
If your patience is worn too thin for the exposition (intended to answer some of the criticism my reasoning will provoke) skip down to the last paragraph for advice.
I don't have the technical expertise of the moderators, but I have been using computers of many kinds at home and in many schools and offices for over two decades (beginning with a couple of years of computer science interrupted by life issues). Long term Mac users hate it when their Macs display problems that were associated more with PCs in the past. Through OS 8.1 (actually the next update, in my experience) older Macs were endlessly updateable, and we expect them to be. There were never any problems with a new OS as it related to the hardware, if it would install, it would run.
One of the annoyances of OS X is the appearance of the sorts of problems we observed in PCs in the past. NT users seem to have been spared these problems, but on low to mid range office PCs stack overflow errors, and symptoms of applications that infringe on each other's files were rampant. I worked in main offices at several University departments; because of my relative computer liteacy, I was called to provide initial troubleshooting for many departmental computers, and was liaison to the pros. That is when I first became aware of the benefits to be derived from reformatting the hard drive. I never had to take such extreme measures on a Mac before we went to OS X on our current four year old computer.
My advice is to save your stuff, reformat (and possibly partition) the drive, install Jaguar first, then OS 9.2. All has been happy here since we did so. When I later upgraded the system hardware, I partitioned the 80 GB drive and hope to keep the system partitions uncluttered.
With best wishes for a successful outcome,
Sue

[Ronaldinho]

Diskwarrior.
Okay, it's probably too late. But I think that everybody should owna copy of diskwarrior.
The moment Disk Utility gives you an error it can't fix, toss in DW.
Every single time. This is your first line of defense. fsck -y is fine for routine maitinence, but the moment it give syou something it can't fix, don't do it again. You can actually make things worse (as may have been the case here).
Diskwarrior should be your best friend.

[d00d]

The only problem with trying to use Diskwarrior or trying to reformat (which would be my first course of action in this case) is that Ramona can't get a CD to stay in to start off of.

[Dick_Partridge]

Your answer makes sense to me. It must be a hardware problem.
Two days ago I installed Apple's new replacement fan and power supply. Yes, it is a lot quieter, but I had a hell of a time installing it. I don't want a job like that again any time soon.
As soon as I had everything put back together I tested everything, the internal DVD drive, the scanner, the printer, the external hard drive, etc. To my amazement, everything worked.
Then I installed Apple's update to OS 10.2.5. Then, a few hours later, I tried to use the DVD drive and it wouldn't open. I booted in OS 9; still no dice. I restarted holding the mouse button down and it still wouldn't open. I was so unhappy I couldn't sleep last night.
Today, before I called Apple, I took another look inside the case at the things I had installed. Guess what: the cable to the DVD drive, which I had connected, had come loose. So I pushed it on tightly and now everything's fine.
It must be pretty unusual for cables to come loose, but it could happen.

[d00d]

You know what's strange Dick? I also have a Powermac that qualified for the power supply exchange and several months ago, the cable on my CD drive also worked itself loose. It may be common for our computers.

[dacklhus]

Your problem is not strange. Mine did the same - after installing 10.2.5 the system operated normally for abour 5 minutes then froze and indicated I needed to restart. After doing this several times, I rebooted from 10.2.2 and downloaded 10.2.5 again, this time the comprehensive version. Same problem. rebooted from 10.2.2 again and managed to loss data histories in some areas... DO NOT DOWNLOAD / USE 10.2.5. One would think this was DOS...and I've had Macs since the original 128K.