[d00d]

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"Well, the reason I ask is that perhaps there is some simple core reason you have/had problems."
====> I fully agree. I'm suggesting that the core reason that I and others continue to have complications with these particular issues is a result of their not being as user-friendly as the other Mac apps., utilities, and so on.

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I'm just not aware of any user-friendly issues. I'm trying to find very specifically what you are talking about. As far as I can tell, it's more user-friendly than any service of its kind that I've encountered.

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"In particular I ask because there should be no syncing involved with .Mac mail itself."
=====>True, but what happens if you configure the mail utility to retrieve your .Mac mail messages, as I have? Under the Mailox tab in Mac Mail I scroll down and have the option to "SYNCHRONIZE MACLUST@MAC.COM."
Also, the trashcan in Mail can be emptied on my .Mac account on my computer, AND/OR on the .Mac server.

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That option, which reads "Always synchonize changed mailboxes" on my computer (I'm using 10.3 in case you're not), is under the Advanced section (which should read, don't touch unless you know what you're doing) and has a heading of "Check with your system administrator before changing any of the following". That said, it basically preemptively check the status and contents of every folder on the .Mac mail server. Otherwise, it will check the status and update when you open that folder with Mail. Either way, the effect should be transparent to you. I personally don't mind extra activity when connecting and want things updated before I access them, so I use this option (but I know what this options means, so I messed with it). I'm not aware of any issues with having it checked either way.
As for the trash, you specify how the web interface handles deleted/trashed items in its preferences. In Mail, you do the same. I personally wanted to make them a common place on the server. To this end, I created a folder named "Trash" which I set the web interface to move deleted messages to. In Mail.app, I set it to use an online folder. I then set the "Trash" folder on the .Mac server as the trash folder in Mail.app. I can empty in Mail.app or webmail and it has the same effect. I'm not even sure if the original settings did this for you or not. If not, there is rationale for that, which I can lay out. At any rate, this would be the same with ANY email service.

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But as I explained in my original post, I was specifically trying to highlight the discrepancy in USER-FRIENDLINESS and EASE OF USE between .Mac and other Mac software/services.

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The thing is, I'm not aware of any discrepency, which is what I'm trying to figure out from you.
Not to be rude, but you keep saying there are ease of use issues. Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. I'm asking specifically what these issues are.

[maclust]

Hi Derik,
Again, thanks for your commitment in trying to help.
"I'm just not aware of any user-friendly issues. I'm trying to find very specifically what you are talking about. As far as I can tell, it's more user-friendly than any service of its kind that I've encountered."
=====> Derik, that is precisely why I listed two concrete examples in my last post - mail and backup issues.
"As far as I can tell, it's more user-friendly than any service of its kind that I've encountered."
=====> Derik, that's good to know, and I am sincerely grateful that's the case. Please note, however, that my comparison was one of .Mac and its support relative to other Apple software and services. Not .Mac relative to other software and/or services on the net.
"That option, which reads "Always synchonize changed mailboxes" on my computer (I'm using 10.3 in case you're not), is under the Advanced section (which should read, don't touch unless you know what you're doing) and has a heading of "Check with your system administrator before changing any of the following".... personally don't mind extra activity when connecting and want things updated before I access them, so I use this option (but I know what this options means, so I messed with it). I'm not aware of any issues with having it checked either way."
=====> Derek, again I really appreciated your efforts. You've just written me a long and detailed paragraph on a matter I raised. Were this really 'simple,' I'm not sure that would be necessary. But I'm grateful for your having explained this. Ditto for your paragraph on the trash - which will take about 4 re-readings on my part.
"The thing is, I'm not aware of any discrepency, which is what I'm trying to figure out from you."
Not to be rude, but you keep saying there are ease of use issues. Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. I'm asking specifically what these issues are."
====> Derek, again, that is why I cited these two examples - relating to mail and backup.
====> I should like the opportunity to reiterate a few other things:
A) you certainly are very committed as a moderator
B) From MY experience and that of friends with equal experience and technical skill-level .Mac is not as user friendly as other Apple software. Two example of this are available above, as relates to mail and backup.
C) The lack of phone support for things .Mac-related exacerbates this situation.
D) My citing everything I find a challenge with .Mac and then having a moderator troubleshoot it does not change the fact that I found it challenging to begin with. I have yet to encounter any major issue changing the settings in the 'advanced' tab of any other utilities or applications. That you think that the one in Mail that syncs mailboxes when using .Mac should read "don't touch unless you know what you're doing" leads me to think that in fact some utilities/apps are more user-friendly than others, unless you feel that all advanced tabs should have this warning?
E) None of this is personal for me, and I hope it is not for you. I don't know how many times or different ways I can stress that I appreciate your efforts. My hypothesis is merely that I experience this differential and you don't because you have greater experience and expertise in these matters.

[d00d]

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A) you certainly are very committed as a moderator

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Danke schoen. I try. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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C) The lack of phone support for things .Mac-related exacerbates this situation.

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I can appreciate that. I personally never use phone support. I find it's more of an exercise in frustration than anything. I think forums are currently the best way to get help.

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D) My citing everything I find a challenge with .Mac and then having a moderator troubleshoot it does not change the fact that I found it challenging to begin with. I have yet to encounter any major issue changing the settings in the 'advanced' tab of any other utilities or applications. That you think that the one in Mail that syncs mailboxes when using .Mac should read "don't touch unless you know what you're doing" leads me to think that in fact some utilities/apps are more user-friendly than others, unless you feel that all advanced tabs should have this warning?

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I wouldn't say that some apps are more user-friendly because they don't have advanced settings screens. Those screens are supplied for advanced users who have very specific needs. I don't play with options in my software whose effects I don't know. I figure that if I don't know what it is, I don't need to touch it. It's better than Apple simply keeping anybody from using those options.

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E) None of this is personal for me, and I hope it is not for you. I don't know how many times or different ways I can stress that I appreciate your efforts. My hypothesis is merely that I experience this differential and you don't because you have greater experience and expertise in these matters.

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It isn't for me either, and I was afraid it might be for you. I'm glad we can talk about this as two adults (which is far too uncommon on the internet these days).

I guess my questions are essentially trying to get at what the exact Mail and Backup issues you are having are/were. For example, from what I've gathered, you were confused about how to empty the trash and the fact that there may have been two trashes. I'm talking very specifically, as in, what did you expect Mail and Backup to do and what happened instead that you were unsatisfied or confused about?

[lance6]

I have never used the Palm calendar. My business uses MeetingMaker and since it is viewable by my coworkers, I started using iCal for my personal stuff. I do have the extra step of exporting events out of MM into iCal, but I don't mind it since I don't have to do too many at a time. I do use the Mac Address Book since it dumps in email addresses into Mail when needed. It's nice to have it all sync together onto my Palm, but since I got an iPod, my Palm usage has slipped. But I do like how you can use the iCal Share to bring in other random calendars, like the moon phases, the Tour de France, and other things.