[JackMac]

What you are looking for seems like the G4s that were available for about a year after the G5s were introduced. It also made me think about my StarMax clone as well as the other clones that were reasonably priced very upgradable alternatives to the Apple manufactured models. It might be interesting to see the guts of an iMac or eMac in a box without a monitor or keyboard and mouse just to see what kind of price would be put on it. It wouldn't have to be visually stunning and unique like the Cube, but then it wouldn't really be a Mac now would it.

[Praxis]

In reply to:

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I just built up the $418 system at iBuyPower.com. Of course, that $418 system didn't come with a DVD drive (sometimes needed for program installation), basic works suite, screen, or even an operating system. After adding those in (and boosting RAM to 512 MB), it comes in at $879. Oh, and it still has a GeForce 5200 (non-Ultra) with 128 megs of RAM. For gaming, it is a rough match to the combo drive eMac running with 512 MB RAM. That is to say, Each machine will most likely run anything you throw at it, but neither will run anything modern with any alacrity.
Oh, and in case you're talking about those $500 complete systems that Gateway or Dell seem to offer every week as an "awesome deal." Good luck finding an AGP slot in those machines to put that $200 graphics card- you'll probably be stuck with PCI, as the AGP bus is used for their awesome Intel Integrated Extreme Graphics. And good luck pumping any speed out of the Celerons those machines come with- even at 2.6 GHz, they're still a joke to the entire PC community.

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No no no, you're missing the point. Those deals SUCK. That $500 machine isn't no where near as good as the iMac, but it will OWN the iMac in gaming.
My point was, a $500 machine with a good graphics card is AWESOME for gaming. Some of the others in this thread said that if you want to play games you should get a PowerMac (ridiculous- the second processor is useless in games, and while its nice for professionals, paying over $2000 just to get a system that ALLOWS you to upgrade the graphics card is silly). My point was, if Apple let you stick a good graphics card on the iMac (a $1200) it would ALSO own in gaming- you don't need a $2500 PC with a good graphics card to play the latest games, so why would you need a $2500 Mac? If you put a good graphics card on the iMac, it'd be a perfect gaming machine. They just need to give that option. They'd suddenly have a much bigger market for that iMac.

[Dubbalubagis]

Hi,
It is impossible for a $500 PC to "OWN" an iMac in gaming. Even if you put a fantastic graphics card in a $500 machine where is the money for the processor and RAM? I mean c'mon who are you trying to kid? The iMac is a consumer level machine there is no possible way they could keep the cost low and please everyone and still put a higher end graphics card in the machine. People complain about the price as is.

In reply to:

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Some of the others in this thread said that if you want to play games you should get a PowerMac (ridiculous- the second processor is useless in games, and while its nice for professionals, paying over $2000 just to get a system that ALLOWS you to upgrade the graphics card is silly).

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No one said that the second processor is what makes the powermac good for gaming they just were saying that it is the only mac option for hard core gaming.
In any case your graphics card is only as good as your processor lets it be. So put it to rest already about the cheap PC gaming machines, they can't run high profile games either.
Dubbalubagis
Apple iBook G4 933MHz, 640MB, 40GB, Combo Drive, Mac OS X, 15GB iPod
Debug Computer Services http://www.click2debug.com

[aliasfox]

In reply to:

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No no no, you're missing the point. Those deals SUCK. That $500 machine isn't no where near as good as the iMac, but it will OWN the iMac in gaming

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What about the iBuyPower? it still comes in at nearly $900 with a CRT and a crappy graphics card. It will NOT own an iMac in games. For that matter, no $500 machine can make even the graphics scores my rev A PowerBook G4 12" can make- check out the integrated graphics scores at www.tomshardware.com. In this test, the Intel P4 3.06 (running on a 533 MHz system bus) and using the integrated graphics found in all budget PCs can barely play Quake III, a 5 year old game, at XGA. Frankly, my upgraded PowerMac 7300 with a G3 and Voodoo 3 PCI graphics card pulled better than 21 fps (albeit in 16-bit mode). And before you start saying that the 3.06 GHz P4 is outdated, it's still far faster a chip/bus combination than a 2.6 GHz Celeron that you'll find in a $500 system.
Now, judging by what you're saying, a G5 iMac (with a bit of a RAM boost) can't pull 21 fps in Quake III? You must be mistaken.
Now, you're next argmument will be "no no no, you're still missing the point- you can put a $200 GeForce 6600 GT into one of those $500 machines and it would be KILLER!!" I'll stay away from the leet-speak for now as that would be unfair. Now, back on topic. Crack open one of those $500 off the shelf machines and find an AGP slot to plug that graphics card into. Let me know when you find one. The fact of the matter is that most of those machines can't accept an add-in AGP card because the built in graphics chipset already runs off the AGP bus- besides, Dell and Gateway must think... "Why put a slot in that nobody's going to use? I mean, who in their right mind is going to upgrade these things? We'll save ourselves $3 a mobo by buying them without slots!"
So if you want to buy an add-in graphics card for those $500 machines, the best you'll be able to do is a Radeon 9200 PCI... and surprise surprise, that's about $100, and is marginally slower than the 9200 found in the eMac (primarily because the eMac uses an AGP bus and the add-in card on the PC is PCI). Now, an eMac for $800, or a $500 PC + $100 for the graphics card = $600 for the PC that might play games about as well as an eMac (remember, we're still talking about a Celeron, 128 or 256 megs RAM, a PCI graphics card, and a small slow hard drive), and can do nothing else?
My point is, for a decent gaming machine (off the shelf, not build it yourself), you'll still be spending at least $1500 with a budget CRT- And you're still in the ballpark of $2000 once you factor in a nice big LCD.
Consider... an iMac is a Lexus ES, a gaming oriented PC is a Mustang. The Mustang might come in a little cheaper than the Lexus, and it might be faster in some situations, but which would most people rather live in, day in, and day out?

[enb141]

In reply to:

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In reply to:
I just built up the $418 system at iBuyPower.com. Of course, that $418 system didn't come with a DVD drive (sometimes needed for program installation), basic works suite, screen, or even an operating system. After adding those in (and boosting RAM to 512 MB), it comes in at $879. Oh, and it still has a GeForce 5200 (non-Ultra) with 128 megs of RAM. For gaming, it is a rough match to the combo drive eMac running with 512 MB RAM. That is to say, Each machine will most likely run anything you throw at it, but neither will run anything modern with any alacrity.
Oh, and in case you're talking about those $500 complete systems that Gateway or Dell seem to offer every week as an "awesome deal." Good luck finding an AGP slot in those machines to put that $200 graphics card- you'll probably be stuck with PCI, as the AGP bus is used for their awesome Intel Integrated Extreme Graphics. And good luck pumping any speed out of the Celerons those machines come with- even at 2.6 GHz, they're still a joke to the entire PC community.


No no no, you're missing the point. Those deals SUCK. That $500 machine isn't no where near as good as the iMac, but it will OWN the iMac in gaming.
My point was, a $500 machine with a good graphics card is AWESOME for gaming. Some of the others in this thread said that if you want to play games you should get a PowerMac (ridiculous- the second processor is useless in games, and while its nice for professionals, paying over $2000 just to get a system that ALLOWS you to upgrade the graphics card is silly). My point was, if Apple let you stick a good graphics card on the iMac (a $1200) it would ALSO own in gaming- you don't need a $2500 PC with a good graphics card to play the latest games, so why would you need a $2500 Mac? If you put a good graphics card on the iMac, it'd be a perfect gaming machine. They just need to give that option. They'd suddenly have a much bigger market for that iMac.

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That's why I think that mac sould create a single processor line G5 because in some situations you only need a processors (Gamers almost never buy dual CPU setup even hardcore one's), no matter which amount of money are they going to expend want to spend the money in a good video card instead of two processors.

[Dubbalubagis]

Hello,
So you want Apple (not mac) to create a single processor line just for hard core gamers? Apple already had a single processor desktop, actually both 1.6 and 1.8 powermacs were originally single processor units. Either they didn't sell well or Apple found it to be more profitable for them and the consumer to make the whole line dual. As MacCheetah said, Apple hasn't seen the demand for single processor hard core gaming units and probably never will because the market is owned by the windows platform. It's not even a moot point. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Dubbalubagis
Apple iBook G4 933MHz, 640MB, 40GB, Combo Drive, Mac OS X, 15GB iPod
Debug Computer Services http://www.click2debug.com

[aliasfox]

Well, the Quake III engine takes advantage of dual processors, and the Unreal Engine offloads audio onto a second processor... so gamers using games from those engines might see some improvement over single processor machines...
Perhaps... even if the OS were running primarily on processor 1 while the game were running on processor 2...

[Praxis]

In reply to:

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What about the iBuyPower? it still comes in at nearly $900 with a CRT and a crappy graphics card. It will NOT own an iMac in games. For that matter, no $500 machine can make even the graphics scores my rev A PowerBook G4 12" can make- check out the integrated graphics scores at www.tomshardware.com. In this test, the Intel P4 3.06 (running on a 533 MHz system bus) and using the integrated graphics found in all budget PCs can barely play Quake III, a 5 year old game, at XGA. Frankly, my upgraded PowerMac 7300 with a G3 and Voodoo 3 PCI graphics card pulled better than 21 fps (albeit in 16-bit mode). And before you start saying that the 3.06 GHz P4 is outdated, it's still far faster a chip/bus combination than a 2.6 GHz Celeron that you'll find in a $500 system.

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Wrong. Here's how to own an iMac.
Customize a $450 system from ibuypower.com with an Athlon XP 2500, not an overpriced Intel Crapium or Craperon processor. Throw in a Radeon 9800 XT. Bam, iMac will be owned in every game.

In reply to:

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Now, you're next argmument will be "no no no, you're still missing the point- you can put a $200 GeForce 6600 GT into one of those $500 machines and it would be KILLER!!" I'll stay away from the leet-speak for now as that would be unfair. Now, back on topic. Crack open one of those $500 off the shelf machines and find an AGP slot to plug that graphics card into. Let me know when you find one. The fact of the matter is that most of those machines can't accept an add-in AGP card because the built in graphics chipset already runs off the AGP bus- besides, Dell and Gateway must think... "Why put a slot in that nobody's going to use? I mean, who in their right mind is going to upgrade these things? We'll save ourselves $3 a mobo by buying them without slots!"

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I'm sorry, but you're completely mistaken. I built a computer for a friend. $430, including an Athlon 2500 with 5 PCI and 1 AGP slot AND a Radeon 9200. The same computer is available from ibuypower for about $500.
Make it $650 and a Radeon 9800 XT...bam, you've got a good gaming machine. And that $430 system included a DVD drive, and CD-RW, and 80 GB hard drive.

[Praxis]

In reply to:

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I can't really agree with this. While the GPU is a large part of the gaming equation, there is still a lot of processing for the CPU to complete before it sends it off the the GPU. Something has to feed it. The only example I could quickly find is this benchmark. This is only Halo. Plus, these benchmarks are using a 3.2GHz P4, 1GB DDR400, and a nice mobo. Look at the 9800XT performance at 1280x1024 or even 1600x1200. You can tell me that you could play Doom III at high quality with a P4 2.0GHz and a 9600XT?

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Well, my 900 mhz Celeron can play Jedi Academy with a 64 MB graphics card. My experiences- AND benchmarks- seem to me that the GPU is the LARGEST part of the equation. A 3 GHz P4 might throw in a few more FPS, but the GPU is the largest part.
And yes, you can play Doom III at high quality with a 2 GHz P4 with a fast enough GPU.

[Praxis]

In reply to:

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That's why I think that mac sould create a single processor line G5 because in some situations you only need a processors (Gamers almost never buy dual CPU setup even hardcore one's), no matter which amount of money are they going to expend want to spend the money in a good video card instead of two processors.

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They already have this potential. The iMac G5 is a single processor G5 line. If they would give an upgradeable graphics card, it would be a perfect machine for this.

[Ronaldinho]

In reply to:

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They already have this potential. The iMac G5 is a single processor G5 line. If they would give an upgradeable graphics card, it would be a perfect machine for this.

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I think pretty much everyone agrees that an upgradable graphics card would have been a nice plus. I suspect its absence will cost them a few sales among people who like games -- but then again, as I've said before, no hard core gamer will get a Mac anyway, because we get the games 6 months to a year later (if at all).

[aliasfox]

In reply to:

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Customize a $450 system from ibuypower.com with an Athlon XP 2500, not an overpriced Intel Crapium or Craperon processor. Throw in a Radeon 9800 XT. Bam, iMac will be owned in every gam

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Right... you're forgetting that the $450 systems at iBuyPower don't include the price of Windows. Or a DVD drive. Or a screen (let alone a 17" LCD). And that's still ignoring the fact that they both still come with 256 Megs of RAM. Go check your figures when you come up with a complete machine (CPU, Monitor, Optical Drive, Operating System).

In reply to:

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I'm sorry, but you're completely mistaken. I built a computer for a friend. $430, including an Athlon 2500 with 5 PCI and 1 AGP slot AND a Radeon 9200. The same computer is available from ibuypower for about $500.
Make it $650 and a Radeon 9800 XT...bam, you've got a good gaming machine. And that $430 system included a DVD drive, and CD-RW, and 80 GB hard drive.

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I never made the argument that Apple can compete with homebuilt machines. First of all, anybody I know that even remotely knows how to crack a computer case has a bootleg copy of Windows XP Professional ($250 or so?). And you're still ignoring that the iMac comes with a screen. $430 $250 (for Windows XP Pro) $400 (digital LCD) = $1080 (with the Radeon 9200, a piss poor graphics card). And that comes in about... $200 less than a ready made iMac 17". Neither of them will play games all that well. Now, if you swap that 9200 for a 9800 XT (add $200), pull out that 256 megs of RAM and replace it with dual channel 1 gigabyte (2 x 512 MB- another $100 or so?), then you might have an argument for your ~$1,400 machine.
Then again, if you want to compare a machine like yours, you can probably get an MDD or Quicksilver off of eBay, add in a nice graphics card, have all the expandability you want, and come in at well under $1500... might even be able to throw a processor upgrade in that machine too for that kind of money...

[Praxis]

In reply to:

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Right... you're forgetting that the $450 systems at iBuyPower don't include the price of Windows. Or a DVD drive. Or a screen (let alone a 17" LCD). And that's still ignoring the fact that they both still come with 256 Megs of RAM. Go check your figures when you come up with a complete machine (CPU, Monitor, Optical Drive, Operating System).

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As I said though, it will STILL own the iMac in gaming.
I understand the iMac is more expensive than the iBuyPower because it has more features. But does it really make sense for the cheaper system to own the more expensive system in games? Not really. As I was saying, the iMac should have a little option for a faster graphics card. Otherwise it gets owned by a much cheaper machine.
My point is NOT that the iMac is overpriced, but that it doesn't take an uberexpensive system like a PowerMac to play games! A cheap system with a good graphics card can do it. iMac or even eMac with a Radeon 9600XT or Radeon 9800XT would be a perfect gaming mac.

In reply to:

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I never made the argument that Apple can compete with homebuilt machines. First of all, anybody I know that even remotely knows how to crack a computer case has a bootleg copy of Windows XP Professional ($250 or so?). And you're still ignoring that the iMac comes with a screen. $430 $250 (for Windows XP Pro) $400 (digital LCD) = $1080 (with the Radeon 9200, a piss poor graphics card). And that comes in about... $200 less than a ready made iMac 17". Neither of them will play games all that well. Now, if you swap that 9200 for a 9800 XT (add $200), pull out that 256 megs of RAM and replace it with dual channel 1 gigabyte (2 x 512 MB- another $100 or so?), then you might have an argument for your ~$1,400 machine.
Then again, if you want to compare a machine like yours, you can probably get an MDD or Quicksilver off of eBay, add in a nice graphics card, have all the expandability you want, and come in at well under $1500... might even be able to throw a processor upgrade in that machine too for that kind of money...

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Again, you're misunderstanding. I'm not claiming that the iMac is overpriced or anything- I'm pointing out that a much cheaper system can easily beat it at gaming, so if Apple doesn't want to be trampled in the gaming market they should give the option of a better graphics card in the iMac.

[chevyorange]

I wish Chevrolet would drop the price on the 2005 Corvette 20%, too.