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Bleu Rose leaves the Mac with Black & Bleu v10

#43 User is offline   Nobody Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 06:22 PM

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Or the company sees Apple's quality has having been bad all along and only recently got religion on this point and has since decided to "raise its standards" by going exclusively with Windows.


I think you're finally getting close to what I suspect is his situation.
It's a good bet that Bleu Rose Ltd. is not his regular job and he works as a software developer during the day for some company. Up until OS X the company he works for may not have supported platforms other than the Mac. Or around the time OS X came out he changed jobs from a company that was Mac only to one that supported multiple platforms, or to one that didn't support the Mac. Maybe they did AIX, Solaris, FreeBSD, Linux, or even, God forbid, Windows. At that time he started discovering that his standards were actually rather low.
I'm reminded of an email exchange I had with a friend who's a software engineer with Adobe. He's been a lifelong Apple fanatic. At work we were setting up some Macs with OS X for drop-in users and having a lot of trouble getting the Macs to work with our Kerberos and LDAP servers. I was telling him my woes and how impossible it was to find any information or documentation. At that time Adobe was just about to release some of their apps for OS X. He commiserated with me telling me how he knew exactly how I felt and that they'd had problems at Adobe porting their apps to OS X due to poor support for developers from Apple. And how their Windows programmers had it so easy because Microsoft provided such great support for developers.
In the Bleu Rose announcement he also mentions "Apple's seeming lack of concern about compatibility across its product versions". This is a problem that is well known. Any time you upgrade your Mac you never know what application or hardware may stop working. And down the years Apple's standard response has been to contact the vendor. And in many cases the vendor is required to modify their software so that it works with the new operating system. Microsoft, on the other hand, bends over backwards to an incredible degree to ensure that old legacy apps work with each new version of Windows. This is also true with Sun and IBM. It's a big reason corporate customers feel safe with Sun, IBM, and Microsoft. The Bleu Rose guy probably also discovered this when he started doing development for the non-Mac platform(s).
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#44 User is offline   jmincey Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 06:35 PM

Well, everyone has their own point of view on such things. My impression is that Apple's developer support is greater now than ever before in its history. My impression is that its free developer tools are more robust now than ever before in its history. And, finally, my impression is that Apple's lack of compatibility across versions of OS X (1) is modest and often overstated, (2) is applicable more to driver-oriented software than to high-level apps, and (3) is due to the fact that OS X is a very young operating system, (now only four years old), and that this so-called "incompatibility" is actually the result of Apple's moving forward with its adoption of UNIX conventions and increased Posix compliance.
My experience with Windows is that it is every bit as incompatible across versions (if not more so) and that one can never take for granted a compatibility across Windows 98 to Windows ME to Windows NT to Windows 2000 to Windows XP -- and indeed even across service packs within the SAME verison of Windows.
Finally, I suspect this is about money. Any bad quality or lack of support notwithstanding, you can bet this developer would have stuck with the Mac if he had been making enough money on his ROI. And while I had a great need for an error code glossary (or extension conflict manager) under System 7-9, I feel no such need under OS X. This operating system which we are supposed to believe is of such "bad" quality almost never crashes and when it does I can use the detailed log files and the console to diagnose any problems.
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#45 User is offline   d00d Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 06:55 PM

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this so-called "incompatibility" is actually the result of Apple's moving forward with its adoption of UNIX conventions and increased Posix compliance.

It's also due to many developers relying on API implementation instead of defined input and output (a bad practice that still happens all the time).
In reply to:

and indeed even across service packs within the SAME verison of Windows.

Bingo. My work still prohibits installation Windows XP SP2 on our PCs. Great compatibility.
In reply to:

Finally, I suspect this is about money. Any bad quality or lack of support notwithstanding, you can bet this developer would have stuck with the Mac if he had been making enough money on his ROI. And while I had a great need for an error code glossary under System 7-9, I feel no such need under OS X. This operating system which we are supposed to believe is of such "bad" quality simply doesn't crash and I have the detailed log files and the console I can use if I need to diagnose any problems.

Bingo Jeff. That's was my suspicion all along. OS 9 and earlier suffered from cryptic error descriptions. Good old "Bus Error -13". Oh! That makes sense. That was the whole reason for things like Black & Bleu. That coupled with a lack of resources like the internet (which wasn't nearly as ubiquitous as it is now) made things like this necessary. Nowadays, someone could whip up a simple website that could contain all the information in that program. I suspect OS X's more verbose error messages also make this reference all but useless. Not a big loss.

#46 User is offline   Nobody Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 08:19 PM

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My impression is that ...


Your "impression"? How many applications have you written or worked on for Mac OS X? And how many lines of code have you written for Mac OS X? What programming languages do you know and use?
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#47 User is offline   jmincey Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 10:35 PM

Given your question above, apparently you delude yourself into thinking that all experienced software engineers and programmers agree on the best languages, compilers, IDE's, and other developer tools and platforms. Amazing.
And, no, you didn't SAY this but why else would you ask me this question unless the implication behind it was that programmers themselves cannot differ on such questions? Do you think that not a single programmer prefers the Mac and OS X as a development platform?
If I am mistaken in my "impressions" above, then please show me this evidence of yours that throngs of developers find the development tools and environment under OS 9 to have been superior to that which is available under OS X. Eagerly I look forward to your making this case.
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#48 User is offline   Nobody Icon

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 11:19 PM

I'm simply curious to know how much experience you have developing software on the Mac since you said you had these "impressions" about Apple's developer support and support tools. Are these "impressions" based on first hand experience or ...? I don't really care what languages, IDEs, etc. you use, except out of idle curiosity.
In reply to:

And, no, you didn't SAY this but why else would you ask me this question unless the implication behind it was that programmers themselves cannot differ on such questions?


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#49 User is offline   Dan Frakes Icon

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Posted 03 January 2005 - 02:56 AM

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[over 100,000 new bugs reported during the months of October & November, 2004 alone] is a rather startling figure, and I wonder where he gets it.


If this is true, he's likely referring to bug reports on Tiger, which is not due until later this year and is currently not even in "beta" status. Plus the way Apple's bug tracking database is set up, most bug submissions are duplicates. Regardless, the number was clearly press release fodder rather than a reliable indicator of the stability of the platform.

The irony here is that the main product of the developer in question was designed to help users understand errors and troubleshoot. If Mac OS X is truly as problematic as was claimed in the press release, I would expect the market for this developer's product to be expanding dramatically! /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

In reply to:

As for the "shrinking number of Mac users" he could be talking about users of his product, but I'd guess he's more likely talking about the Mac market share, and unless I've been living under a rock and have missed the announcements, I've yet to hear any about the Mac market share rising (or even staying steady). In comparison to the rising number of Linux and Wintel users the number of Mac users is shrinking, proportionally, although not absolutely.


With all due respect, I think you've been living under a rock /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif In fact, if you look at the numbers Dvorak cites for his assertion (which are actually the platform shares of visitors to a particular site), you'll find that even by those wholly unscientific statistics, the Mac OS X share of visitors has actually increased over the past year.
Many analysts (including me, in the current issue of Macworld) have predicted that the Mac's market share will increase noticeably this year due to increased Apple brand awareness and the unprecedented degree of frustration with viruses, malware, and spyware among Windows users. The Mac platform is currently as strong as it's been in a long, long time -- among both users and developers -- and a window of opportunity is opening for it to become even stronger. (The same could be said for Linux; however, as good as Linux is, right now it's simply not a good end-user solution -- most of its market share increases are due to large installations, not home users. It's still for geeks, not grandmothers, so unless it gets a much better interface and easier setup and software installation, its share of the home market is eventually going to hit a "geek wall," limiting its avenues for expansion to the business/server market.)

In reply to:

It's a good bet that Bleu Rose Ltd. is not his regular job and he works as a software developer during the day for some company. Up until OS X the company he works for may not have supported platforms other than the Mac. Or around the time OS X came out he changed jobs from a company that was Mac only to one that supported multiple platforms, or to one that didn't support the Mac. Maybe they did AIX, Solaris, FreeBSD, Linux, or even, God forbid, Windows. At that time he started discovering that his standards were actually rather low.


So, from a single press release, you're deducing that the developer used to work in an all-Mac environment, thus sheltering him from "better" alternatives, and only recently "saw the light" of how much better other operating systems truly are? That's not a leap of logic -- it's an Olympic triple jump! /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

#50 User is offline   Allerbe Icon

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Posted 03 January 2005 - 06:25 AM

Jason Snell wrote: [indent]In reply to:

Let's be honest. When a company announces it's leaving the Mac, and then decides to cite its reasons, there's only one thing to expect: sour grapes.

[/indent]
Remember Audion? OK, Panic didn't close shop, but having to give up a flagship product must have been painful. What did they do? They made the last version a free download, and left us with one of the most entertaining (and educational) developer stories I know: Audion Story

Many other developers have made their "orphaned" software a free download. There is a stylish way to deal with these situations...

Allerbe (blog)
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#51 User is offline   Rugby Icon

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Posted 03 January 2005 - 06:31 AM

agree and it was a nice sortie when Audion left (I had paid for it)
Audion is a good product that was overshadowed by the free iTunes but had some better qualities then aformentioned.
Anyway why does all this posting for a company few have heard about ?
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#52 User is online   IVIIVIi4ck3y27 Icon

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Posted 03 January 2005 - 07:52 AM

[indent]In reply to:

2. Dvorak is a known Mac platform detractor. He's declared the death of the Mac platform so many times (and given so many alternate reasonings) that most people (especially myself) just ignore him. He likes getting people riled up, not reporting anything of value.

[/indent]
d00d nailed it right there...
I've been a Mac owner since '94, and a user far longer than that. Dvorak has rarely ever made any positive statement with regards to the Mac, and has continually tried to preach his brand of doom and gloom on the platform for as far back as I can remember. At one point, when everyone spoke of "The sky is about to fall..." on Apple (a favorite Dvorak bedttime tale), I contested that Apple was in a far different situation than my previous platform (Amiga) was in. I saw great potential for Apple to survive at that juncture, because there was actually a murmur going around about them in the news and the fanbase was more rabid and the company less in shambles than Commodore was. The Amiga basically was swept under the rug in most media outlets, unless you had AmigaWorld magazine and even it had the cord yanked swiftly.
So here we are with new Macs, Apple stores, iPods, iMacs, eMacs, Airtunes, iTunes, and Dvorak is still wanting to put an axe in Apple. All I can say is... look at the Amiga... it's not anywhere near as healthy as we are, but it's not anymore dead (i.e. MorphOS and PowerPC-based systems running Linux kernals with new Amiga bits) than we are or will be. If the Amiga platform can survive almost 10 years after it's seminal death by way of Commodore, two-stepping from Gateway, and the various blunders post Gateway... and do so mostly by the communities reluctance and unwillingness to give up on it as their preferred platform... what does that say for Apple? Get a clue Dvorak!
Moral of the story... the Apple is not in dire straits. Would a growth in marketshare be a good thing? Of course, but not at the expense of profits. Many PC vendors have played the lowball cutthroat margins game only to end up in worse circumstances than if they just tried to sell for a lean profit.
So I see Jobs following the Carlos Ghosn approach. It's first and foremost about making profits, and secondly about increasing marketshare. If the forthcoming "headless" consumer machine that is being rumor-mongered on various sites comes to fruition, this is the perfect solution (assuming it's sold for a slim profit vs. a loss-leader approach per unit). It will hopefully also cause more of the used machine market to deflate in terms of over-inflated pricetags, perhaps cutting the costs of processor upgrades for older hardware (forcing said vendors to sell in greater volumes with slimmer margins per piece), which might also get more used Macs in people's hands while others flock to pad Apple's bottomline by purchasing a lean margin machine.
I say lean margin in that Apple should STILL retain a profit on a less/limited upgrade machine, and not sell each machine at a loss. Like I noted with the Carlos Ghosn approach (very successful exec. in the auto industry, was covered in a recent AutoWeek)... it's about profits first, and marketshare second. If you hit on the first one by being competitive in all necessary areas... your marketshare will increase. Apple hasn't necessarily been as competitive as I or many out there would like to see, but they have stuck to the profits approach and their bank account hasn't hurt any for it. That's exactly as they should do. If they can afford to cut margins a little thinner on a particular model and be me competitive on the bottom end, all the better. There's nothing that says Apple can't produce a reliable low-cost machine, and that should be the paramount goal IF said machine comes to light. After all... at a different time with different machine costs, the Mac LC was a very competitive model and one of the most successful Macs in Apple's history. The time might be ripe for a revival of said philosophy. Just don't kill yourself by taking a loss and going after an eMachine or any other PC vendor on the bottom end. You're Apple, you're a different platform, it's Apples to Oranges... and Apple people have always paid a premium over their PC counterparts. How much of a premium though? It doesn't have to be as significant as it has been. Just make a profit per unit.
As far as this software vendor... I don't wish to dis on anyone. I just don't think their product is viable enough anymore to really provide. As was said earlier, it's a niche, of a niche, of a platform that really in and of itself is a niche based on marketshare. That doesn't mean you can't be wildly successful as the #'s for the platform aren't like a handful, they're just small in comparison to the colossus the competition is. In fact, it's sometimes on the colussus platforms that you have 10-12 apps. that do the same thing, whereas since few are as persistent to tackle the smaller marketshare, you might find yourself with a bigger piece marketwise on the smaller platform. Don't count your percentage of the market before it happens.
That said... I find it disgraceful in the blame they've leveraged. Don't rule out the future of product development, and don't bash the people that helped you this far should be a motto all vendors look at. My suggestion is that they take things with a more open mind and shift their focus to products that are more of a profitable venture, much as other software companies have (I still can't believe Corel has become what it has of late). Like... a product with viability? Like a product that is a "can't miss" vs. a product that is a "Wow... that still is being made? Why?!?"
This program, pure and simply, died because it has been rendered obsolete. Any other form of excuse by said vendor is grossly missing the point. If you can't forecast any better than this... then you will see yourself in a similar situation again someday as a result of being short-sighted and ignorant to your market's demand. I don't wish ill on anyone... but that's the facts. What said vendor grasps out of it, is their own prerogative. It's also their loss if they fail to take it for what it's worth. As they say "The truth hurts."
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#53 User is online   IVIIVIi4ck3y27 Icon

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Posted 03 January 2005 - 08:19 AM

[indent]In reply to:

Remember Audion? OK, Panic didn't close shop, but having to give up a flagship product must have been painful. What did they do? They made the last version a free download, and left us with one of the most entertaining (and educational) developer stories I know: Audion Story
Many other developers have made their "orphaned" software a free download. There is a stylish way to deal with these situations...
Allerbe (blog)

[/indent]
Probably the best example anyone can speak of. Panic has always conducted themselves as a modest company with the utmost of class and respect for their userbase (and competition), as well as offering some hellaciously comedic tongue-in-cheek P.R. for their own products. They add a refreshing sense of whimsy in a stuffy atmosphere of people that whine, whimper, and kick cans when their products don't sell. That is something Panic has never done, and they don't have the afforded margins and colossus market standing of an Adobe, Microsoft, or Macromedia to afford losing too many paying apps. When Adobe doesn't see a need for a Mac version of Photoshop Photo Album or their DVD-burning software... they point the finger at Apple. When Panic made a mistake that shifted fate in Cassady & Greene's favor... they pointed it out and spoke of where it has taken them, for better or worse.
I hated to see Audion's demise for this fact. I also sincerely hope Cabel and the gang open-source Audion so that this product's future will continue even if it's not in the profitable sense it has been in the past. It at least might allow some people to learn how to tackle things in their efforts to program the future of "The next great app." by learning from Panic's programmers and unique ways of tackling this or that in their coding. This could all potentially bring Audion new life down the road in wake of an Audion Pro if they find new and differing ways to make Audion a successful product once again. Variety is the spice of life, and having Audion as an alternative or added/afforded option gives potential to push Apple. Open-sourcing it could give Audion new life, and potential greater breadth (platforms) as well.
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#54 User is offline   Jason Snell Icon

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Posted 03 January 2005 - 09:46 AM

Right, but Panic didn't leave the Mac. Panic is committed to the Mac. I'm talking about developers who pull out of the Mac market and decide to take the opportunity to rip the market, when I would argue that in every case it's the failure of their own product, not the Mac market, that's to blame.

#55 User is offline   scottellsworth Icon

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Posted 03 January 2005 - 11:51 AM

I have been writing windows, mac, and Linux software for a long time now. The Blue Rose product would have been handy for me back in the OS 9 days, but has no relevance whatsoever for a professional developer now. Macs do not show error codes, in the main, and developers can read headers.
Further, I see more Macs out there at my clients than I ever used to before.
Thus, I must agree that the original announcement is simple sour grapes covering the inability to develop a product that people want to buy.
Apple's backwards compatibility and developer support has been very good, in our experience. At the least, when we used our tech support incidents, we got action from DTS. Workarounds, sample code, etc. This was a far cry from my experience trying to get Microsoft to describe Excel's exact behavior when splitting multibyte Japanese and Chinese text data in continuation cells.
We were careful about the version of the OS we targeted during the build, and we never had problems keeping the code working across OS versions, modulo the odd bug in the OS that required a workaround for a version. I admit - we dropped 10.0 and 10.1 compatibility fairly early in 10.3's life cycle, and will likely drop 10.2 eventually so we can use Cocoa Bindings, but we also found that almost none of our customers were staying with 10.0 and 10.1.
So, from where I sit, I see nothing like what lumpyoatmeal does. We have a network with OS 9, OS X, Linux, BSD, Solaris, Windows NT/2000/XP, and a few custom pieces of lab gear, and of them, the OS X machines are the ones that tolerate mixed versions, hardware upgrades, and software upgrades the best.
Scott
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