[GlennBlaylock]

I recently upgraded my B/W G3 (Mac OS X 10.3.8) by adding a Sonnet Encore ZIF G4 (1GHz). However, ever since I installed it I have had stability problems. These started with both installations of OS X suffering Kernel panics an refusing to boot up again. With the first installation that this happened to, when I tried to reboot, i got a kernel panic reminiscent of 10.1.x (a scroll of text running up the screen). This was the OS X installation that was on my spare HD, so I just did a clean reinstall of the OS. Then this happened with the install on my main HD. This time when I tried to reboot after the initial crash, I got the standard 10.3.x kernel panic message saying that I needed to restart.
This time I booted from my DiskWarrior CD and tried to run that on my primary HD. However, DW encountered problems with which it couldn't deal. So, I booted from my SystemWorks 3.0 CD and ran Norton Disk Doctor on the HD. That found Several Major problems (I can't remember what they were now) which it was able to fix after a couple of passes. After this I went back to DW and this time it worked. After this I booted from the OS X.3 install CD and used Disk Utility to repair permissions. After all of this, I tried to restart from the HD with the same result as before, the standard 10.3 kernel panic message came up as the OS was starting. So, I did an archive and install on the primary HD. In both cases, the kernel panics happened very early in the boot up process.
After having reinstalled the OS, I have not had anymore kernel panics, but I have notice a tendency for several programs to to just freeze up. These programs include Photoshop, Excel and Entourage. When this happens, the force quit option does not work. The only thing that has worked to get the programs working again is to restart the computer. However, sometimes the Finder also freezes and then all I can do is a hard restart. The common factor seems to be that this happens when I have Classic active. So, does anyone know what is going on here or how to fix it?

[Martin_Muggee]

Sorry if this is too obvious a question, but have you called Sonnet Customer Service? The guys should be able to help you resolve your system's issues pretty quickly. If you want to call, the number is (949)472-2772 (Mon. thru Fri., 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. PST), or you can e-mail them at support@sonnettech.com .
That said, if anybody else out there dealt with these issues, let 'em know.
Martin

[GlennBlaylock]

No, I haven't. It just that when I have a problem my first reaction is to come to this site for advice. However, on your recommendation I just e-mailed them.

[Hatter]

Run DIMM First Aid and make sure it is all the same PC100 8 ns CL2 or PC133 and not a mix. That is step one.
If you had a G3 RAM timing wasn't (as much) of an issue as with a G4.
OEM RAM on B&W was PC100 10 ns - which is too slow.
DAta corruption can be result of not using the right RAM, or having a rev 1 and not using a controller for your drives.

[GlennBlaylock]

Well, taking out the 10 ns RAM modules didn't fix the problem. Are there any other suggestions.
Or, Hatter, were you saying that I also can't mix PC100 8 ns RAM with PC133?

[GlennBlaylock]

There is one other thing that I should mention. The guy I communicated with at Sonnet's support was not very helpful. The only thing that he could think of to explain my problem was the problems associated with having an overly large HD as a slave drive with a Rev. 1 B/W. However, that is not the problem because mine is a Rev. 2.

[doggdamac]

Some possibilities:
A) Heat sink not reinstalled correctly ie.....Improper/insufficient contact between heatsink & CPU, or
B) Bent pin on underside of the zif, or
C) Insuffucient airflow inside the case, or
D) Bad boot blocks on the HDs (also would explain DW having problems)
E) Something got bumped loose during the zif install......a power connector, pci card, a dimm ect ect
Have you tried resetting the pram and/or the mobo ?

[GlennBlaylock]

A) The heat sink is permanently attached to the upgrade card.
B) I made sure that the pins were all strait before I put it in and it just dropped right into the socket with out any force when I installed it.
C) My computer sits on top of my desk with nothing to block airflow.
D) I haven't actually checked for bad blocks recently, but NDD found and fixed the problems with HD.
E) I don't think so. I didn't touch anything other than that which was necessary to install the CPU and add a DIMM.
At your suggestion I did reset the PRAM. That did not help.
Thanks for the suggestions. However, I really don't think that this problem is hardware related. I am definitely seeing a pattern to the problem. As long as I don't have the Classic environment active, everything works just fine. However, if I have Classic active (even if there are no Classic applications running, then the Mac OS X programs become unstable. It also does not seem to be all of the applications that become unstable. I can have some programs that run just fine and then I try to use others and they freeze up. A couple of the ones that I know freeze are Photoshop and Excel.

[Hatter]

I don't see any mention of how much or what mix of RAM is, and yes, I think you should stay with 8 ns or faster. There are no known stable B&Ws using 10 ns running OS X, and the more you open in OS X the more likely it is.
I had a problem at one point with an app not working, at least OS X will show output in console where it would show up. Replaced the RAM module that would be associated with memory address, and all was and has been well ever since.
ALL RAM has to be the same CL and type/speed. The Grackle memory controller takes what it finds in J19 RAM slot and uses that for all the RAM, which if mixed, would be wrong.
Also, run Rember and/or memtest 4.05.

[GlennBlaylock]

What follows is the report that i got from RAMFirstAid:

In reply to:

---

Model: PowerMac1,1
PowerMac G3 (B&W)
DIMM0/J19
DIMM configured for 64MB
8008040C0901400001A06000800800018F04060101000EC07000001E14143210
201020100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000123F
CE00000000000000014B4D4D3320363653203832334354532D474C5343089939
C0D802FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF64AD
10.0ns PC100-323
DIMM checks out OK
DIMM1/J20
DIMM configured for 128MB
8008040C0902400001A06000800800018F04060101000EA060FFFF1410142D10
20102010FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF12E1
C1494E46494E454F07485953363456313632323047552D38FFFFFF0102000825
070402FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF64FF
10.0ns PC100-222
DIMM checks out OK
DIMM2/J21
DIMM configured for 128MB
8008040C0A01400001755400800800018F04060101000EA0600000140F142D20
15081508000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000012AF
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000632030
0E120000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000064F7
7.5ns PC133-333
DIMM checks out OK
DIMM3/J22
DIMM configured for 256MB
8008040C0B01400001806000800400010F04060101000EA06000001410143040
201020100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000128D
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000064AF
8.0ns PC100-222
Note: the number of column address bits is not compatible with newer Macs
DIMM checks out OK
All your DIMMs checked out OK

---

After you told me to take out anything slower than 8.0 ns, I removed the first two DIMS. Those two slots are now empty.
You wrote, "There are no known stable B&Ws using 10 ns running OS X...." I installed the 256 MB DIMM at the same time as the CPU Upgrade. The other three DIMMs I have been using with Mac OS X for years without any stability problems. So, I question this statement.
You also wrote, "ALL RAM has to be the same CL and type/speed. The Grackle memory controller takes what it finds in J19 RAM slot and uses that for all the RAM, which if mixed, would be wrong." Here you are getting a bit above my head. More clarification would be appreciated.
Finally, you mentioned trying Rember and/or Memtest. I looked them up and decided I didn't have time to deal with them tonight.
However, again, I question whether this is a hardware problem. It doesn't matter how many programs I have open. As long as Classic is not booted up, I don't have any problems. It is only when I try to run Mac OS X applications with Classic running that the OS X programs start to freeze up.
Also, for doggdamac, I ran a check of my HD's media tonight. NDD did not find anything wrong with the media. It did, once again, find a whole bunch of files in the Catalog B-tree that had incorrect clump sizes though.

[Hatter]

Ram has to be filled from J19 out to J22.
You have a real mix of RAM that I would remove and replace. Totally.
I've dealt with RAM and problems helping others over the last 6 yrs.
You might want to read what I and others have written over on
Apple Blue and White Discussions about RAM.
Yosemite SDRAM from Crucial
Mixing PC100 and PC133
Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White): RAM Specifications
Understanding bandwidth and latency
Kingston Memory Guide
http://www.datamem.com/
www.pc100.com
Micron SDRAM
MacGurus Memory Reference
MacGurus Yosemite SDRAM (old but still good info)
MacGurus RAM - half-way down the page. 256MB $48.
MacIntouch: BAD RAM report
People with of matched (identical) DRAM in B&W have solid stable systems,
no errors. Wrong or "bad" RAM can cause data corruption.
I would suggest 512MB or 1024
A G4 has the ability to push memory at 164MB/sec. Solid. The G3 would begin at 99MB/sec but fall off to 85MB/sec. So G4 requires better quality and higher standards. The B&W always required memory to run at 125MHz (which translates into 8 ns). Some PC133 memory works in 100 MHz front side bus.

[Hatter]

I wonder if it could be a problem with the cache software, with the L3 cache also. Altivec Fractal Carbon is a good test to run to test just the cpu I think.

[GlennBlaylock]

Well, it looks like I need to eat a bit of crow here. Because the problem only seemed to manifest when Classic was up, I thought it was a software issue. However, last night I pulled out all of the RAM except the 256 MB DIMM which I moved to the J19 slot. Now the problem seems to be gone. Of course, I am now down to less memory than I had before all of this started. I looks like I am going to have to see if I can get some money for another DIMM. Thanks for your help, Hatter. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Hatter]

Welcome /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Jaguar would only allocate 128MB to Classic. Panther will try to allocate 256MB (and both will "allocate" 1GB of virtual). OS X "kernel" needs about 80MB is all. As you opened apps, some will load into "high" memory and some will get stacked into other regions. 512MB RAM on B&W seems to be a good basic amount, more of course is "better" and what is important is to get the same RAM so they all "talk" at the same speed so no one "trips" or drops the ball (so to speak).
Originally, there just wasn't anything except SDRAM at 10 ns at the time, and 8.5/.6 were not pushing it (in fact a G3 only pushes memory at about 85MB/sec after loaded and running, and 99MB/sec on boot) but a G4 will push it at 1.6x the bus speed so the original G3/300s weren't a problem (and we all thought it was a bug in OS 8.5.1 or MSIE 4.0-5 that was the root cause).
Because memory problems can lead to data corruption and other problems, symptoms and yet "it boots" etc (some of us weren't so lucky and were greeted with kernel panics) you may need to be careful that the system is "clean."
Even 10.3.8 has changed somewhat how "inactive" memory is treated and handled that can show up as new problems, which can affect users in various ways. But quality RAM should not have any trouble now or even with Tiger, but sometimes a particular application can trigger memory errors with marginally acceptable memory.
I know your system will behave now /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif