[Steve_S]

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Your irritation is based on false assumptions, and on misunderstandings of what was said in the article, of Alec's, and of my prior statements.

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Okay, perhaps you can enlighten me. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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First of all, piracy is a phenomenon which, like it or not, does affect us all in one way or another.

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Agreed. As a software developer / IT Manager, I fully understand this.

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The "hassle" of more explicit security measures is not as large an effect as that of a company such as Adobe simply closing its doors, not wanting the "hassle" of its products being stolen.

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Sorry, but I disagree here. For starters, product activation and having an honest user base are not mutually exclusive concepts. A simple web search illustrates how to bypass the activation (at least on the PC as this is new on the Mac product). Likewise, if someone wants to be dishonest, they still can. You're delusional if you think such measures equate to the end of piracy. So then, that leads us to who does it "hassle"? Honest customers. Legitimate reasons against this activiation have already been stated. I particularly liked the example linked above whereby the activiation won't allow people to install on a RAID setup. Nice...

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And you're complaining already about something you haven't even seen.

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Actually, I've seen it on the PC version of CS. So, you're speaking a bit too soon...

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The activation process is simple and really no hinderance if you want to install Adobe apps on more than two machines. You click "transfer" on one machine and get a prompt acknowledgment. Then you go to the other machine and click "activate", and it's done.

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Right, and if I have 3 machines, I can now only use 2, even if I am the only user and only 1 machine is being used at a time. Is the assumption that I will now purchase an additional copy of the suite? Not hardly. If anything, it's going to be one less purchase Adobe would have received.

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No one's twisting your arm to upgrade, either. But you can at least download the trial versions to see what's there before you start bad-mouthing the products. That would be the reasonable thing to do.

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The reasonable thing to do would be to understand what the topic is about before you pipe in. With a username like "adobephile", it's not surprising how defense you become about anything controversial regarding Adobe. However, let's be clear, I'm not trashing the product in any functional way. I too am a fan of most Adobe products, particularly the CS Suite. That doesn't mean I have to be happy about Adobe's decision to make life more difficult for it's honest customer base. Try taking your blinders off for a second, you might be surprised by what you see. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Steve

[cjmahony]

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What Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft and all other companies are doing with this activation scheme goes beyond being unethical. When I buy food I do not have to call General Mills to get permission to eat it. When I buy a car, I do not have to call Saturn to get permission to drive it. When I buy a television, I do not have to call Sony to get permission to watch it. When I buy clothes, I do not have to call Eddie Bauer to get permission to where them. Once something is purchased, the manufacturer is out of the loop excepting customer support issues. This tactic is wrong no matter how you try to look at it.

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When Saturn produces an improved engine, do they stop by and upgrade yours? I haven't noticed Sony stop by and upgrade my old CRT based TV to a flat panel plasma screen? And when you put on twenty pounds does Eddie toss you a new pair of jeans or how about that Rolex you picked up on the street corner? All of these companies are dealing with physical products that you can't take home and crank out all the copies that you want.
There is nothing unethical about how adobe chooses to protect their software from piracy. Given the choice between activation and dongles, I would prefer activation.

[mdawson]

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I admit that activation is annoying. I'm not happy about it either. but we are going to have to live with it.
This is the way of the future. It's too bad, but that's the way it is.

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I would love to know where this rule is that some people live by that dictates that consumers have to just lay down and take whatever corporations opt to shove up their *$$? Consumers do not have to comply with business practices that treat them like criminals from the outset and one of the major problems with our society right now is that we all too often allow this to happen. This is akin to compulsory drug testing that many companies employ when hiring new employees. Unless an employee displays behavior that implies that they may be under the influence of drugs, there is no legitimate reason for companies to be pre-screening employees in such an insulting manner. The only area where I would see such a practice as being even remotely acceptable is in jobs where the risk potential is very high (e.g. truck drivers, heavy equipment operators, etc.).
Consumers do have a voice and the DivX fiasco a decade ago is proof positive of the fact that consumers speak with their wallets. More recently, Quark has had to rethink the manner in which it abused its position as the only choice for pre-press professionals. Again the consumer spoke buy choosing InDesign. If large numbers of people stop buying software because of product activation schemes, then companies like Adobe will have to rethink their strategy. Unfortunately, far too many people today have the same I just have to deal with it mentality that you purport.

[mdawson]

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All of these companies are dealing with physical products that you can't take home and crank out all the copies that you want.

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OK, I will give you that so I will restate the premise with a more applicable parallel:
When I buy a CD, I do not have to contact the label to listen to it. When I buy a DVD, I do not have to call the studio to watch it. In fact, in the latter case the movie industry attempted such a practice and the consumer threw it back in their faces. Once an item is purchased, physical or not, the buyer does not have to get permission to use that item. As numerous people have mentioned in this thread, these companies are treating the honest consumer as if they are criminal or at the very least like children who must first get approval from their parents.
I have not had to get approval from my parents in nearly two decades and I sure as he|| dont need to get permission from Adobe, Microsoft or any other company to use a product that I legitimately purchased.

[spiderbat]

IMHO, activation is the most f&%@#*g method a company may choose to enforce its licence agreements. I had major problems with it and I'm boycotting, as far as I can, any sw "protected" in this way.
Any company that uses this kind of "protection" should be forced to repay any DIRECT OR INDIRECT damage caused to the legitimate customers by these schemes, including the frustration the user suffers when [s]he finds out that her/his sw isn't available anymore! /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[altivec]

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It is a joke when people threaten to never buy Adobe's products again because of this.

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Sorry. it's no joke. As I stated in my previous posts, my stance against the other companies that chimed in with activation has not changed so I'm sure its not going to change with Adobe either.

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Either you guys have NEVER bought the products in the first place, or you are just smoken'.

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Do I have to show you my receipt. I swear to you that I have a legal "honest" copy of CS that I purchased. I also never smoked but I may start if I ever have to put up with activation.

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There is no comparable product out there, and it's highly unlikely that there will be

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As I have not done much research on this lately, I will probably agree that there isn't much competition. BUT and a big but at that. Major shifts in company polices such as what Adobe has done creates big opportunities for others. When Quark had a crack in its armor, indesign was there to swoop in and capitalize on all us angry Quark users. If you would have told me 5 years ago that some new software would come in capture a good portion of Quark's user base and change the industry, I would of told you that you were smokin. Just look at Adobe Premier. Things can change fairly quickly. In the mean time, I still have photoshop CS. heck, I could go back to photoshop 3 and still use it productively. There is nothing in CS2 that will make me a better designer. My guesstimation is that I could use CS for at least 5 years before I start noticing major differences. In the mean time the landscape will change. Apple has a perfect opening considering the new technologies in core image.

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I've always had to buy several copies of Photoshop, etc. for my shop. The reason, for those who obviously don't know, is that you can't run more than one copy at the same time over a network if it has the same serial number. This is nothing new. It's been in place for quite some time. So there is no difference there. Most shops will need the same number of licenses they needed before

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So why activation then. If you were the so called "casual pirate" you are already blocked from installing on 10 computers in your office.

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My wife is an attorney for CitiGroup, and has dealt with Adobe a number of times over the years. She tells me that they are the easiest software company to do business with, that they understand the needs of their customers. I would imagine that they will work something out on that high level, if they haven't already.

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You are missing the point. My beef is not with Adobe. Adobe is a great company to deal with and they have the resources to even run this in a terrific manner. My problem is by saying ok to them you are essentially say ok to all developers. Next thing you know you'll have to activate the the $10 shareware calculator you bought.

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This is the way of the future. It's too bad, but that's the way it is.

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Its too bad you accept whatever gets handed to you regardless if you like it or not. I don't make a lot of stands, but this is something that I just refuse to accept. I am hoping their are a lot more people out there like me so that we can put a big dent in Adobe's pocket book. This is the only way to stop "that the way it is".

[Steve_S]

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As for GIMP, that's a laugh! I have GIMP installed as well. Sure for basic things it can be used. If you really want to spend several times as much effort, more complex work can be accomplished as well. But I would NEVER consider using it for more than experimentation. It's clumsy, incomplete, and doesn't fit into a modern publishing workflow.

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Yes, that's true, GIMP is interesting, but certainly not a replacement. I don't necessarily think their is a uniform way of how people will react to such announcements. Some will simply bend over and take it in the posterior with a smile and defend Adobe along the way. Some may resort to pirating, some will experiment with alternatives, etc. I'd imagine many will use the closest competitor, which currently happens to be the original Adobe CS suite (for Macs anyway). I'm only speaking for myself. I don't make a living on Adobe products, it's strictly a hobby for me. Obviously everyone's needs are different.

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I admit that activation is annoying. I'm not happy about it either. but we are going to have to live with it.

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Sadly, it's that sort of attitude that tells companies like Adobe that it's okay to be treated like a criminal, even though you've been a loyal, paying customer for many years.

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My audio and 3D programs have always used either activation or dongles. If you think that a dongle is better, think again. Even my calibration tools use a dongle.

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Yes, and you knew that before you purchased it. You had the opportunity to choose a competing product and you didn't. Finally, they are much more specialized, niche apps, then the Adobe products. Whether you accept it or not, many are disappointed in Adobe's actions. Perhaps some are just venting or even over reacting. Nonetheless, many have a choice to make in terms of future purchases. Personally, I would have automatically updated to CS2. As I have no immediate need to do so, I will likely skip the upgrade process until either the activiation feature is removed, I find a suitable workaround to the activiation (on the Mac), or I'm forced into a situation where I have to upgrade. While there's always hope for a better alternative from another vendor, I'm not counting on that either.

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She tells me that they are the easiest software company to do business with, that they understand the needs of their customers.

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I'm fairly certain that product activiation isn't a response to the needs of Adobe's customers. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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This is the way of the future. It's too bad, but that's the way it is.

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Possibly. But, only if a sufficient percentage of existing customers like yourself tolerate and reward such behavior.
Steve

[mdawson]

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Finally, they are much more specialized, niche apps, then the Adobe products.

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This is a point about hardcore piracy blocking that many people defending the activation system seem to be missing. Dongles have never been the norm for mainstream applications. The only software items I have ever come across that required dongles have been specialized market-specific high-end products that have been ported to the desktop. These are applications that typically run upwards of $10,000 if not tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in purchase cost. Also, the producers of these types of programs are often one-trick ponies offering either one sole app or an app and its add-on modules. In such a niche market, this mentality is much more understandable; the loss of one sale is a huge hit.
Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft, et al, generally do not develop niche products. In fact, these companies are employing these tactics in areas where they dominate. Adobe is the king of creative software; Photoshop and Illustrator are the industry standards. Macromedias Web Studio (Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Freehand and Flash) is nearly, if not the top web development suite. Need I even go into Microsoft? These companies are hurt by piracy about as much as the RIAA and MPAA.
These companies may also want to look into their pricing. Considering the span of Photoshops market penetration and the fact that when all is said and done, it is only designed to handle image editing (one of many tasks in graphic design),why does Photoshop still cost $600+ a copy. ACDs Canvas Pro has a much smaller market share, provides multiple graphics functions (e.g., image editing, illustration, page layout, etc.) and yet costs less than Photoshop alone. No it does not have all of the features of Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign combined, but a good designer can do as much in Canvas as they can with Adobes Creative Suite for $500. As someone else here stated, a good designer could get amazing results with Photoshop 5. The end product depends more on the skills of the designer than the bells and whistles in the software.

[heisetax]

I'm just like you. I have copies of all my software on multiple drives. All of the external drives are capable of running either my PowerBook or dual 1.25 GHz G4 PowerMac. That means that one drive may run the PowerMac one day & the PowerBook the next day, but only be a tabletop decoration the next day or two. My SCSI boot drive on my PowerMac doesn't want to show up starting a couple of days ago. Either related to this or just an issue with MS Office 2004 (11), I've tried finding a combination that will work. Excel just suddenly stops within the first 15 minutes (sometimes 15 seconds) of when it is started. That means that I keep trying to find a combination that will work best. With a 2 computer setup, I'd be spending all of my time on the telephone. I generally only use Acrobat Pro, but have kept my licenses current on the complete suite of programs. So just like when Turbo Tax Pro for the Mac got eliminated 10 years ago, rather than use the Windows version I went elsewhere & used EWxcel to write my incme tax program. THat's been a savings of probably $1,000 a year for 10 years. This will have the same effect as that. I'll just keep using Acrobat 6 & the other components until either they will not work any more or I have found a suitable replacement program.
Until this registration change, I had planned on being among the first group to upgrade. Now like some others, I'll wait & see. That will save me some money & loose Adobe some more money by having fewer sales. I have enough software here that I can't use because of lost serial numbers or activation codes. This is just adding one more problem that I will not put up with.
I have a copy of MS Office 2003 including OneNote. It has a similar way of doing things. It says that I have registered it the maximum number of times & must call for help. Since I run this through VirtualPC I've had to reinstall it for some reason rather that just move the drive file to its new location. Life is not as difficult for those that priate their software as it is for those that want to be legal & purchace (should I say rent) our software. I keep saying that I am doing right by not purchacing questional software that will work at a low or no price as opposed to paying for something that I may not have use of because the Software producer puts barricades to the legal use.
Some one needs to get a list going of those that pruchase their software legally, use it legally, but will be bothered by this change. Here's my vote against against this change.
Bill the TaxMan

[Filburt]

I think piracy is wrong and Adobe has the right to protect its property. That said, at $1,199 ($549 for upgrade) for Premium edition and $899 ($349 for upgrade) for Standard edition, they seem overpriced for what amounts to a point release features (although many are certainly welcome ones, none seem groundbreaking to me) rather than a major update. Where's G5 optimization? I bet each application is as bloated as ever, if not more (Illustrator is particularly bad). And UI still seems rather kludgy. If Adobe wants us to pay such a high sum for upgrade, particularly with Activation added, give us more compelling upgrade.

[kyle988]

I agree with filburt, Untill I see G5 optimization I will stick with 7.0.x

[Deejemon]

What's the bet this thing doesn't support web proxy servers?
Actually, that's not even the biggest problem. We have over 5000 machines and any one of them could be licensed for an Adobe product at any time; either now or if someone buys a license later. We use a software deployment tool to automatically drop a pre-configured applications onto workstations, so that every installation of Office, Mozilla, etc is exactly the same and in a known state. If this activation thing is required, we will simply not be able to offer Adobe Creative Suite 2 to any of our users, because every installation will be different. How do they expect organizations to manage massive installations if individual activation are involved? Do we get a discount so that we can pay people to go out and manually install and/or activate applications (since we never provide license codes to end-users)? And if activation doesn't support proxies, that's 5000 (or more, since any machine may have more than one Adobe product on it) phone calls to Adobe Activation Central (or whatever).
We've already gone back to SPSS and told them that it is impossible to use their new activation-enabled SPSS 13 for Windows for the same reason, and they seem to be realizing the major burden they've created. Maybe the loss of a potential 5000 machine user-base will help to bring Adobe to their senses.

[moose_n_squirrel]

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What's the bet this thing doesn't support web proxy servers?...we will simply not be able to offer Adobe Creative Suite 2 to any of our users, because every installation will be different. How do they expect organizations to manage massive installations...Maybe the loss of a potential 5000 machine user-base will help to bring Adobe to their senses.

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Wait a minute. Doesn't it say somewhere that this is the same activation that has been used on Windows Photoshop/Acrobat for the lats year or so? Do we have mass reports of defection, or are Adobe's revenues for those products way down? I'm just curious, since I haven't heard of any widespread revolt with the existing system. Adobe seems to get a lot of sales from Windows-based corporations now and you would have thought these types of problems would hit their sales in the gut already if they were valid problems. Anyone know?

[mistersquid]

I'm an educational user and have had my department, a medium-sized academic (not creative) department, purchase a license for Adobe CS about a year and an half ago. I intended to have a license for CS 2 requisitioned until I discovered CS 2 will require product activation.
I have access to 3 machines. They are always on and often have simultaneous programs running. Of course, I can only sit in front of one of them at any time.
So, I'm getting off the Adobe wagon. I will not ask my department to requisition a CS 2 license for me and will decline if offered. The activation significantly diminishes the utility of the software, especially since I do not need to exchange files with others.
Adobe, it's been a nice ride but I do look forward to the day when what happened to Premiere for the Mac happens to Adobe Photoshop. While you may control the market for now, you might be surprised how quickly markets can change, especially when functionality can be replaced.
My guess is that Adobe will lose significant Macintosh upgrade business due to product activation because product activation, at its core, is un-Maclike. Maybe, just maybe, CS 2.5 will take back this huge mistake.