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Print lawsuit just routine, says Google's Schmidt

#15 User is offline   pdrayton Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:37 AM

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This constitute re-distribution of copyright material that is black and white wrong.


If it's "black and white wrong", then prove it to us /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
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#16 User is offline   Moof_in_Charge Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:37 AM

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I wish you were in London, we could sink a few beers on this one!



Hey, that sounds grand.... but I got to tell you.. you really should use the service to see how much data is actually available once you go beyond searching contents of the book. The other part is, I am not sure if your friend is versed in US Copy Write laws and what constitutes as fair-use but if he is than I am sure he will be on my side. Sounds like a good opportunity to give the chap a call and invite him out for a beer. Send me an email or leave me a message and let me know what he thinks! /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
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#17 User is offline   Moof_in_Charge Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:57 AM

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The amount of text Google shows at any one time is immaterial.



Of course that is material, it is the amount that decides if the service falls under "Fair-Use". If they show you the whole product than what they are doing is not considered Fair Use (Google shows the entire book if the book is already part of Public Domain.
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The fact is that they have scanned stuff that does not belong to them and scanned and retained it it in its entirety


The fact is that you can "BY LAW" scan any printed material and include it under fair use. If you stamp an ISBN number on a book it becomes fair game. To scan 1 page or 1,000,000 pages is not a relevant clause in Fair-Use.. to SHOW 1,000,000 sure is and that is certainly not what Google is doing.

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Public good and all of that are immaterial


Well that is just upsetting to hear... I wonder if you will have the same sentiment if the Bird Flu hits your neck of the woods as you knock down company's patents for the good of the public.
Public good is certainly material, a service like this will afford the same research capability to an inner city kid as it does to the kid who can afford to pay $40k a year to go to Yale/Princeton or Oxford.

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Google is pig headed on this and similar


Well that's just a harsh assessment of Google. Something that is certainly not warranted.
I still maintain my stance... OVER 90% OF PEOPLE WHO BASH GOOGLE OVER THIS HAVENT (or ARE NOT) USING THE SERVICE ON A REGULAR BASIS.. I find most arent even aware of Google's TSO...
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#18 User is offline   wiretrip Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 12:12 PM

If the library were to have something similar to Google Print then I believe we would be hearing a different tune from the AAP. I think it's all about the money. And how much of it can be had!
Is there a copyright law that states only a library can be a library?
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#19 User is offline   pdrayton Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 12:34 PM

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Public good is certainly material, a service like this will afford the same research capability to an inner city kid as it does to the kid who can afford to pay $40k a year to go to Yale/Princeton or Oxford.


That is an oft overlooked point. I'm glad you brought it up.
And, this new Google service, if combined with free WiFi (such as San Francisco is planning), will enable disadvantaged inner-city kids to have the same access to educational resources as well-heeled suburban kids.
It's about time we think seriously about leveling the playing field... and it can be done without infringing on copyrights... as Google has shown.
Google must win. It's in the best interest of all of us.
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#20 User is offline   pdrayton Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 12:55 PM

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If the library were to have something similar to Google Print then I believe we would be hearing a different tune from the AAP.


Google is using books exclusively from select libraries. The libraries are agreeing to let Google scan their books. The publishers are against even libraries doing this because the publishers feel that they, and the authors of the books, should be the only ones who should create this new kind of catalog. Mind you, the publishers and authors never thought of doing this... but now that someone else came up with the idea for a new product they want to restrict that idea to being implemented exclusive by themselves.
It should be noted that copyright law expressly prohibits the copyrighting of ideas.
Google is creating a new kind of catalog of books. Google's new product is a "new idea on how to catalog books"... that's why this is considered by many to be legal.
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Is there a copyright law that states only a library can be a library?


No. It's because of copyright laws that libraries can continue to do what they've been doing centuries.
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#21 User is offline   RudolphRed Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:49 PM

I have used the service and yes, it is of great interest to me. (Yes, I love it).
This is not the point.
Google is copying in whole, Copyrighted Acts, and is using these for its convenience and gain.
"Fair Use" and all of that are inconsequential in this scenario.
I have stopped using the great Google Search service. I now use Yahoo since they are building their own search rather than sub-contracting and seem to be doing things within my ethical bounds.
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#22 User is offline   RudolphRed Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:52 PM

Irrelevant to the point.
My sympathies are with you however.
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#23 User is offline   pdrayton Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:11 PM

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I have stopped using the great Google Search service. I now use Yahoo since they are building their own search rather than sub-contracting and seem to be doing things within my ethical bounds.


That's fine. We can respect you for that.
Just remember to respect our ethical interest in furthering the cause of education and access to information for all... not just those who can afford to pay for it, while remaining in what we feel, based on extensive legal opinion, to be the bounds of copyright law.
I simply can't ignore the needs of so many in order to protect a very few uncreative and unimaginative publishers/authors who are willing to sacrifice those in need simply to make a buck.
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#24 User is offline   mac_the_knife Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 06:20 PM

I've made my thoughts on what Google is doing very clear in other threads. But I think if you do a fair use analysis, comparing the factors in the copyright law to other cases that have come before it, Google makes a very good case for fair use. To the poster that says fair use is "irrelevant": it's not. It's defined in the law as a use of a copyright work that the author/owner cannot prevent or charge for. So if what Google is doing is fair use, the publishers lose. Period.
First off, the fair use exception as stated in the law:
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Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.


In a previous thread, one poster made a factor-by-factor analysis of fair use to come to the conclusion that Google's use is not fair use. That's fine to do that, but the poster only resolved these issues using sort of a "gut instinct" method, and didn't look at case law at all. Case law is what a court goes by to figure out how to judge whether something is fair. You want to be consistent with cases that have gone before it, including the US Supreme Court (which has made several landmark copyright decisions in the past decade or two).
So, let's go, factor by factor:
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
One might think, oh, it's commercial, so it's unfair, right? In the words of Lee Corso... "Not so fast, my friend." First off, the statute doesn't say either way. But the Supreme Court in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose said that just because a use is commercial doesn't mean it's unfair.

In fact, even though 2 Live Crew's use of Roy Orbison's "Pretty Woman" in this case was in a parody put out on a commercial album that sold well, it was still considered fair use. Other uses that, even though they were commercial, were considered "fair use" by US Courts include Kelly v. Arriba Soft, where a web search company much like Google thumbnailed photographer Kelly's images; Sandoval vs. New Line Cinema, where the use of copyrighted photographs in a scene from the commercially successful movie 'Seven' was fair use; and Sony v. Connectix, where Connectix's use of Sony's BIOS in their Virtual Game Station (before the company was bought out) was fair use.
In Campbell, the key factor in determining whether the purpose and character of the use weighed for or against fair use was not its commercial purpose, but rather, whether its use was "transformative":
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The central purpose of this investigation is to see, in Justice Story's words, whether the new work merely "supersede[s] the objects" of the original creation, or instead adds something new, with a further purpose or different character, altering the first with new expression, meaning, or message; it asks, in other words, whether and to what extent the new work is "transformative." Although such transformative use is not absolutely necessary for a finding of fair use,the goal of copyright, to promote science and the arts, is generally furthered by the creation of transformative works.


Courts have found the following uses, among others, transformative: the parodying of a song (Campbell); the thumbnailing and indexing of photographs in a search engine, in order to access them easier on the internet (Kelly); the photographic representation of copyrighted Barbie dolls to satire the values she is supposed to represent (Mattel v. Walking Mountain Productions); most recently, copying of copyrighted test protocols with students' answers (Newport-Mesa School District v. California Dept. of Education).
What Google is doing with literary works is at least as transformative, if not more so, than what Kelly did with photographs. When accessing copyrighted text through Google Print, one does not see the text as one does in a book. Instead, one is directed towards a snippet of the book, containing that text. Instead of reading a book to gain in depth information about a particular topic, one looks for the information to find in which books such topics are discussed.
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
In Stewart v. Abend, the Supreme Court held that factual works are more likely to be taken for fair use purposes than fictional works. This is because while expression is protected by copyright, facts are not. The books which Google is scanning tend to be of both types; but the proposition is that Google is not using the creative elements of the fictional works, but only the fact that certain words or phrases exist in a given part of a work.

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole;

Again, don't jump to the conclusion that "it's not fair use in any circumstance to copy a whole work." That's not what courts have said. In Sony v. Universal, the Supreme Court said that videotaping entire TV shows for "time-shifting" purposes is a fair use, even though the whole show is being taped. In Kelly the entire photograph is being copied. In Connectix, the Playstation BIOS was being copied several times in an attempt to reverse engineer it. Yet all these are fair uses. Why? Because, in the words of the Kelly court, "the extent of permissible copying varies with the purpose and character of the use. If the secondary user only copies as much as is necessary for his or her intended use, then this factor will not weigh against him or her." Also, in Connectix, it was held that copying of the entire BIOS was "intermediate infringement" because the final product was noninfringing.
Google's use of entire works is very much like Kelly, in that to make a viable search engine, you have to scan entire texts of things. It is like Connectix, in that its copy of entire texts is intermediate, as a precursor to displaying only parts of the texts that are searched for on the internet.
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
This is a problematic area for any fair use analysis. Of course, any owner say they "would have" had a market for any particular use. The TV show producers in Sony v. Universal could have said, "hey, we could have given people licenses to copy for money, now we can't do it because fair use makes it legal to do for free!" Same with Campbell ("hey, we could have charged money for a license to parody our stuff!"); Kelly; and all of the situations so far discussed. In Campbell, the court distinguishes between uses that "suppress" demand, and infringement that "usurps" demand for a product. In Connectix, the court realized that Sony would suffer a loss of sales of Playstation units if Virtual Game Station was not found to infringe the copyright, but nevertheless considered it a "legitimate competitor" to Sony.
Google is not competing with authors and publishers. The way Google Print is used, in fact, makes it more likely that one will go out and buy the book, not less. While there are some people that would just get the bare information they need from the pages they can see, the fact that a few pages will not sufficiently detail the author's views of a particular topic makes it unlikely that this kind of "information sniping" will be widespread.
Finally, the Supreme Court has said that in determining whether a partciular use is fair, courts must "weigh the four factors together, in light of the purposes of copyright." The purpose of copyright law is not to reward authors for their "sweat of the brow." (Yes, the Supreme Court said that too in Feist v. Rural.) The US is unique in that our purpose in copyright law is clearly stated in the Constitution--"to promote the Progress of Science and the Useful Arts." Now, this generally means that copyright law should grant exclusivity to provide economic incentives for authors to write, and the greater number (and perhaps quality) of creative works will in itself promote the progress of science and the useful arts. But where exclusivity would inhibit the progress of science and the useful arts, we shouldn't grant it to authors.
So, ask yourself: will Google Print provide disincentive for authors to write? (I doubt it, and I don't think anyone who says authors will be dissuaded from writing because of it actually believe themselves.) Will Google Print "promote the progress of science and the useful arts?" I believe that it has the capacity to promote progress in these areas faster and farther than the world has ever seen to this point. So, for a court to hold that Google's use is not "fair use" under the law would, in my opinion, contravene and undermine the Constitutional reason why we have copyright in the first place.
This is why I think Google's use will be ruled "fair." Now, reasonable minds can differ. But my point is, I don't think it's so cut and dry as people think. Instead of just going with gut instincts about what is "fair" and what is not, analysis of the copyright law as it's written and as how courts have interpreted it, and analysis of the purpose of copyright, will yield a far healthier discussion.
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#25 User is offline   j_drake Icon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 09:38 PM

...the law is about Fair use.. not about how much you can or can not copy...Under Fair use you can present part of the material as millions of students and thousands of magazines, news papers and other media outlet do on a daily basis.
If you present you have either cut the pages from the book or you have copied it, reproduced it, scanned it, photographed it or even copied it word for word in your oh so neat handwriting, but the bottom line is you have caused an image, a likeness to appear in a different time and place other than that of the original.
I made the same point as you do that folks may use limited excerpts from an article/story for reviews etc., but then I stopped short of personal sniping.
And I have used the Google search, and for the most part the information now available is from the public domain.
But now Google wants to indiscriminately and completly copy/scan anything and everything in print with out regard for the writer/creator. I do in principle support the idea of making all this information available to anyone with an internet connection, I do feel however that Google should stop thinking they have any special right to do so. If their intent is to provide a pathway to the written work then they need to prove they can protect the source, and that their intent is not to profit from the work of others without fair compensation/credit and above all permission.
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#26 User is offline   pdrayton Icon

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 03:02 AM

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If their intent is to provide a pathway to the written work then they need to prove they can protect the source, and that their intent is not to profit from the work of others without fair compensation/credit and above all permission.


Copyright law doesn't require or permit that! If you feel it does we'd be delighted to see you point us to documentation or expert commentary that supports your opinion (as we have done in this post and the voluminous Macworld thread from several days ago on this very subject.
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But now Google wants to indiscriminately and completly copy/scan anything and everything in print with out regard for the writer/creator.


That's a gross misrepresentation of what's going on. Google is limiting its scanning to books in select libraries and has the permission of the libraries to do it. "Fair Use" under copyright law is considered by many to permit this. I can assure you that Harvard University, one of the participants in the Google project, does not jump into things like this lightly. Harvard University has a process that weighs both the ethical and legal implications of a venture before climbing aboard.
And, if I had to pick which of two camps was most likely to have the highest ethical and legal standards I'd side with Google Harvard University over Microsoft Yahoo anyday. You seem most comfortable with Microsoft + Yahoo... you're more comfortable living on the edge than I am!
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I do feel however that Google should stop thinking they have any special right to do so.


A lot of us have been pointing to very specific information that shows Google has created this new service to conform to written law and legal precedent. We've also pointed to expert legal opinion siding with Google's stance. And, we've even acknowledged that there are legal experts who disagree with what Google is doing.
But your statement that Google is claiming a "special right", in light of all the evidence that they are using written law and legal precedent to support their new venture (and your noticeable lack of providing information on expert legal opinions on copyright law supporting your viewpoint), is leading me to think that your viewpoint is based on uninformed gut-instinct.
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