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Spotlight answers from MacWorld and More Gripes an

#211 User is offline   sjk Icon

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 01:18 PM

In reply to:

Tallscot, you are a programmer who admits to having some difficulty (at times) with more complex Boolean expressions.


Actually, it was jdb8167 who admitted that.

Interesting and provocative discussion, even with some of the pedantic arguments stubbornly demanding to be "right" rather than looking for mutual consensus about the key summarizing points of those issues and moving the topic forward from there (or calling it a wrap). I'm a stickler for accuracy and details, if they're not losing focus or overwhelming the relevance of that particular issue/topic.
Many reasons how and why some people are frustrated with the current implementation of Spotlight are clear by now. And while some of us have "pet" ideas for improving Spotlight, Rob's top suggested improvements are well-chosen and well-intended for the most overall average benefit.
Bugs and shortcomings acknowledged, Spotlight is quite effective and most valuable to me used as a proximity search tool. I use it much more often than pre-10.4 searching. And integrating DEVONthink Pro adds the benefit of phrase searching. So, my needs and expectations for Spotlight are different than people who've relied on the pre-10.4 search behaviors.
Anyway, it's quite understandable that people can be bothered by Apple's seeming lackadaisical attitude with providing sufficient backward compatibility for something as important to them as file(name) searching. Hopefully that key point in Rob's article survives other discussion.
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#212 User is offline   jmincey Icon

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 01:47 PM

"Actually, it was jdb8167 who admitted that."
I had already edited out that line from my post, but it wasn't in time for Tallscot to catch it -- he had already begun his reply on my first draft. All the same, thanks for the correction.
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#213 User is offline   jdb8167 Icon

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 02:15 PM

In reply to:

my point is that merely being ABLE to do something is not good enough

I doubt that Apple considers Spotlight "good enough." Remember this is a 1.0 tool. It will get better. But I think it is a mistake to look backward at the old solutions as the direction to take it.
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#214 User is offline   hargreae Icon

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 08:30 PM

Rob, I agree with your column completely and I hope more pressure is brought to bear on Apple to improve Spotlight BEFORE Leopard, which is still a year away. I was looking forward to Spotlight, based on Apple's claims of being able to "Find anything, anywhere, fast." We know that was a lie now that Apple has changed that phrase on their web site to say "Find Anything, Fast." Of course, the rest of it is a lie, too, since Spotlight is slow (though it did improve somewhat six months later with 10.4.3) and it does not find "anything."
I noticed how 10.4's Find was worse than 10.3's within the first day of use. When Safari loads a QuickTime movie, it creates an invisible file in the system. So I used to run a search with the following parameters: Location=Entire Volume, Invisibility=visible or invisible, Size is greater than 5000KB, and Date Created is today. When I ran that search in Tiger, it took 2 minutes and gave me zero results. Yet when I connected to my Tiger machine over the network and ran the same search with Panther, I got 18 results in a matter of seconds. WTF?! I then noticed that the latest created file had an extension of qtch, so I ran a search in Tiger for all files with extension qtch and got zero results. I then navigate to the location of the file with extension qtch and type qtch into the search box of that Finder window: zero results. Hey tallscot, if Spotlight can do so much more, then why does it find so much less and take so much longer?
Not including the pathname at the bottom of the Spotlight search results window is just ridiculous. Even though Safari's status bar is turned off, you still have the option to turn it on; not so with the Spotlight search results window. And in the Find File results window, the pathname area is too small, so it's usually difficult to actually read. You could resize the 10.3 window to see the full pathname. In addition, you can no longer sort by Parent, which was the 2nd column of 10.3's search results.
You can sort the Spotlight search results window by "Date," but it actually means Date Opened, not Date Modified, which is usually the far more relevant information and has never before been used on the Mac as a means by which to sort (thus how should we assume Date does NOT mean Date Modified).
Most egregious of all is that 10.4 actually removed one of the major benefits of pre-10.4, active file searching in an open Finder window. If I have a folder full of html documents open and I want to quickly find the one named "events_temporary" I could previously type in the word temporary and immediately the window would only show files with the word temporary in the filename. Now it will show me every folder, image, pdf and html file in both that directory and every subdirectory that contains the word temporary anywhere within the content. Half the time it won't even limit itself to the directory that is open. I just navigated to ~/Library and typed itunes into the search box. The location that it chose to search was Home. I now have to click the Library button to change the search to where I originally intended it to be in the first place.
Another discrepancy is that sometimes it considers files documents and other times it doesn't. For instance, if I type Bulletein into the Spotlight menu box, it will show a Microsoft Word document called Winter 2006 Bulletein in the results under the Documents heading. However, if I type Bulletein kind:documents it says no results found. I have the same problem with InDesign files. If I don't limit the search to any filetype, it lists InDesign documents under the documents heading. But if I specify only documents to show, it will not show InDesign documents.
Then they had to ruin System Preferences by putting a Spotlight search box in the toolbar, which you cannot remove, and forcing the cursor to be there by default. You can't even tab out of it unless you enable full keyboard access, which I don't need or want.
I can understand why Spotlight doesn't search Entourage mail, but Stickies? Come on, that's an Apple app! Why no searching of Stickies?
Spotlight is good at finding groups of files. For instance, if you want to get a thumbnails-look at all the images on a CD relating to Thanksgiving. But if you're looking for actual specific files based on filename or location, it's much, much more difficult.
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#215 User is offline   jmincey Icon

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 09:13 PM

I just want you to know your post has been read (since this thread is quite mature now). I think you make a number of valid points -- and even if someone can unearth a work-around or obscure procedure you could follow in order to achieve the results you desire -- that is not the <expletive deleted> point. The point is that you were able to achieve all these things easily from Panther and now in many respects Apple has taken a step back.
I still maintain that Spotlight is a promising technology, but this dish was not ready to come out of the oven -- not by a long shot.
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#216 User is offline   baltwo Icon

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 06:01 PM

I concur!
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#217 User is offline   minderbinder Icon

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 07:23 AM

Amen to that! It's inexcusable to replace a software feature with one that is inferiour to the previous one. If the new version is as limited as Spotlight is, they should make the old version available as well.
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#218 User is offline   jmincey Icon

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 09:45 AM

I wouldn't say Spotlight is inferior as such. It is indeed inferior in SOME ways but superior in others, and it represents a revolutionary change in how users even approach computers and the management of files. I just think Apple need not make the sacrifices mentioned in this thread in order to achieve this revolutionary change.
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#219 User is offline   griffman Icon

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 10:09 AM

Well put! As I noted, I actually technically like Spotlight. It's amazing. It's just I find the implementation somewhat flawed in this 1.0 release.
Here's another real-world example. I was looking for a certain Macworld column I'd written. Somewhere in that column, there was some AppleScript code. I had the code, since i had the script saved. So I Spotlight-searched for...
tell application itunes next track return 29
Now, you think I'd find one, two, or maybe a handful of matches at best. But no, Spotlight found ... 75 matches! Included amongst those were...

    [*]2.html: included because the number "296" was present, in addition to all the words.
    [*]Chapter 4 of my Jaguar book, because it contained "$29".
    [*]Another column for Macworld that, as far as I can tell with a search of the document AND its properties and Finder comments, doesn't contain 29 anywhere at all (huh? why did it match??). I even used mdls in the Terminal, and don't see 29 anywhere at all. Oddly, other revisions of the same document in the same folder do NOT show in Spotlight's results.
    [*]My iTunes Music Library.xml file. This one contained a key that started "2932....," along with all the words.
    [*]Multiple other instances of weird file types that just happen to have all those words in them.
    [/list]Now tell me again why this makes sense? Even adding the word "applescript" to the search still got me 49 matches...
    Why I couldn't just do a search for "tell application itunes" "return 29", where the quotes mean "match this phrase exactly," which would have found exactly what I wanted to see, and nothing more?
    Argggggh...
    -rob.

#220 User is offline   jmincey Icon

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 10:17 AM

In answer to your last question, Rob, I guess that enclosing a phrase within quotes to denote a phrase search is something that should be hidden away for power users, engineers, and geeks only -- because the ordinary user would just freak out or not comprehend it.
Okay, so I'm feeling a bit sarcastic on this holiday weekend; but it does seem as if Apple -- in the interest of making Spotlight extremely fast -- has ironically only cost the user that much more time. Yes, it's fast on the front end, but then the hapless user winds up on the back end having to manually search for myriad files before finding the right match -- provided Spotlight caught the right file to begin with (in its search).
Your example above is a perfect illustration of why I would rather have some searches, (like phrase searches), non-indexed and take a while longer (but return very accurate results) than for a search to return instant results which I have to wade through, file by file, only perhaps never to find the right file in question.
At least with a slower non-indexed search I can set it in motion and proceed with other work on the computer until the search is done. Under Spotlight, however, I have to use my time and labor in a tedious manual search after the supposed "automated" search is complete.
Thanks, but no thanks.
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#221 User is offline   sandbag1 Icon

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 08:27 PM

I started reading this thread wondering what you were all talking about. I seemed quite happy with the way Spotlight worked. At least I thought so.
I then began searching for test purposes within documents and found that any document created with older versions of AppleWorks, the text will not be searched. If I save the old documents as an AppleWorks v6 file, Spotlight will then find phrases within the document.
So, I agree, Spotlight will not find text within all documents.
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#222 User is offline   minderbinder Icon

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 02:12 PM

"It is indeed inferior in SOME ways but superior in others"
Agreed, "inferior" is perhaps too much an opinion. Software updates shouldn't lose features or functionality from previous versions. Better?
I absolutely agree that you should be able to search for phrases in quotes. It's a basic and fairly intuitive way to search, and MANY people are familiar with it because of Google. (Google is probably a good reference for a starting point for any search tool nowadays due to how widespread and popular it is)
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#223 User is offline   minderbinder Icon

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 09:33 AM

"So does spotlight search network drives?
Yes."
How?
And is there a way to sort search results by size? Seems like such a basic thing, but I can't find it.
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#224 User is online   tallscot Icon

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 09:43 AM

How?
CMND F
Click on "Servers" in location bar
And is there a way to sort search results by size? Seems like such a basic thing, but I can't find it.
Click on List view button in toolbar.
Click on Size column title to sort by size.
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