[Falkie2006]

I wish SOMEONE would come out with an AM radio adaptor for the Ipod. Sports, news, and weather are just not on FM. And for that matter, a satellite radio feed too.
Falkie

[b_baggins]

"I've addressed software. As I said, there's plenty of cheap software that does what the included mac apps do."
Yeah, right.

[minderbinder]

"I stand by the fact that the price difference is $100. Obviously, you just can't get your facts straight."
That's the difference even after you get rid of the unnecessary upgrades like 7200 rpm? I don't think so. And that difference is between dell's 17 and mac's 15, right? You have yet to point out a single fact I haven't "got straight".
Just look at your numbers, you added $1300 in add ons to a $1999 machine? Come on, that's not making it comparable to the mac, that's going completely overkill and beating the mac. You can play the same dishonest games the other way, does it make sense to add every option to the mac and claim the dell beats it by that much more?
"Yeah, right."
So I'll bite. Which included mac software doesn't have a cheap PC equivalent? CD burner? Check. Video editing and DVD burning? Check. Basic photo stuff? Check. Garage band is probably the coolest included app, but there are still decent basic audio/midi apps that are reasonable.
Not to mention that the consumer doesn't have to get these apps if they don't need them, and can just save the money instead. I've never used many of the iApps (and I hate iPhoto and only use it as little as I can get away with).

[d00d]

In reply to:

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Dashboard should be a mini application that you can run if you want it, like calculator or stickies.

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It is. It doesn't start running or rendering widgets until you open it for the first time. If you don't open it, it doesn't run.

[jdb8167]

In reply to:

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That's the difference even after you get rid of the unnecessary upgrades like 7200 rpm?

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You think 5400 to 7200 RPM is unnecessary but think that a 0.16 GHz CPU upgrade is critical? Weird. Or is it that a feature valued by someone besides yourself that is clearly weighted on the Mac side for price/performance breaks your argument?

[minderbinder]

"You think 5400 to 7200 RPM is unnecessary but think that a 0.16 GHz CPU upgrade is critical?"
By "necessary" I mean necessary to try and make the two products as comparable as possible. It makes no sense to customize one machine to a faster drive but not the other - either upgrade both machines or upgrade neither if you want a fair comparison.
For comparison's sake, the two machines are both available with 1.83G cpus and 100G drives at 5400.
Understand?

[jdb8167]

In reply to:

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Understand?

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No.
Apple charges $100 premium for a 100 GB 7200 RPM drive.
Dell charges $349 for the same.
Makes a huge difference in price on the bottom line. If a 7200 RPM drive isn't important to you then you see this disparity as unnecessary. If on the other hand, you think a less than 10% CPU clock speed upgrade is unnecessary, you find this to be an unfair comparison. It is all just opinion on what is necessary.

[astromino]

Obviously minderbinder is so confused. Just stating that the difference between a 17" and a 15" PB (everything else being the same - graphics, HD, memory, CPU) he states it is $500, but if you compare the Apple Store prices they are $2,199 and $2,499, or a difference of $300. Now that is a FACT.
So lets now compare a MacBook Pro with 15" screen, 1.83GHz duo core processor and a Dell with the following specs:
SYSTEM COMPONENTS

Inspiron 9400
Intel Core Duo Processor T2400 (1.83GHz/667MHz FSB), Genuine Windows XP Professional
Inspiron 9400Intel Core Duo Processor T2400 (1.83GHz/667MHz FSB)
LCD Panel17 inch Wide Screen XGA Display
Memory2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
256MB NVIDA GeForce Go 7800
100GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive
No Bluetooth
Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
Adobe SoftwareAdobe Acrobat Reader 6.0
Combo/DVDRW Drives8x CD/DVD burner (DVD/-RW) with double-layer DVDR write capability
Wireless Networking CardsNO WIRELESS LAN CARD
Office Software (not included in Windows XP)
No productivity suite- Corel WordPerfect word processor only
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed)
McAfee Security Center w/ VirusScan, Firewall and Privacy, 90-day trial
Primary Battery53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Limited Warranty, Services and Support Options
3 Yr Ltd Warranty, 3 Yr Mail-in Service, and 3 Yr HW Warranty Support
Dial-Up Internet Access
No ISP requested
Financial Software
No QuickBooks package selected
Operating System Backup & Recovery
Microsoft Windows XP Professional backup CD
TOTAL:$3,267.00
Specifications
2GB 667 DDR2 - 2x1GB SO-DIMMs
100GB Serial ATA drive @ 7200 rpm
ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 - 256MB GDDR3
SuperDrive (DVDRW/CD-RW)
AirPort Extreme Card & Bluetooth
Backlit Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
AppleCare Protection Plan for MacBook Pro/PowerBook (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll
15.4-inch TFT Display
TOTAL:$3,248.00 + $300 for expansion to 17" --> $3,548.00 or a difference of (oh shock!) of less than $300 between the MacBook and the Inspiron 9400
Some people will like the 17" Dell and of course the few pounds more, even the Inspirion 6000 with 15" weighs 2lbs more than the Apple (but of course for minderbinder that is irrelevant) and the Inspiron 9400 is 0.6" thicker (again minderbinder never even acknowledges that this would indeed be worth a premium). It should also be noted that both the MacBook and the Dell have exactly the same number of pixels. On the plus side, Dell has a dual-layer DVD capability that the Mac lacks. On the down side, the Dell has no optical audio I/O, no wireless and no Bluetooth, no iLife comparable software, and all the wonderful vulnerabilities of Windows XP.
Now please just don't tell minderbinder, he might get confused or blow a fuse, or even worse. But then again, maybe he is already past needing help the poor guy /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[minderbinder]

Sorry you aren't able to understand.
With any two computers, you can find add-ons that will favor one or the other. Apple has a better deal on the 7200rpm upgrade. Good for them.
In the comparison I've made, I've gone with stock items whenever possible, only upgrading to get the two equivalent.
"If a 7200 RPM drive isn't important to you..."
It's not whether it's important or not, it's just simpler to make comparisons that include the stock configuration whenever possible.
"If on the other hand, you think a less than 10% CPU clock speed upgrade is unnecessary..."
Ah, you obviously didn't understand my post. The clock speed upgrade is only necessary to get both machines on equal footing for a direct comparison. You would agree that it's more accurate to compare a 1.83 box with another 1.83 box instead of comparing a 1.6 box with a 1.8, right?
Got it now?

[jdb8167]

In reply to:

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You would agree that it's more accurate to compare a 1.83 box with another 1.83 box instead of comparing a 1.6 box with a 1.8, right?

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No, I don't agree. As I've said repeatedly it is more appropriate to use the base tier of each website for direct comparison. You can't reasonably know (right now) how a 1.83 GHz Windows machine compares to a 1.67 GHz OS X machine. But even if you did know the performance difference then you should mark one as better than the other, not choose a higher priced tier for comparison. This is especially true when both websites start at the same price point.
If Apple had an option for taking the base tier to 1.83 GHz as a configuration item then I might have some sympathy for your approach but Apple doesn't do that now.
Claiming that a 9.6% CPU clock speed improvement relegates the base tier of the Dell to the same category as the top tier of the MacBook is not a fair comparison. I have no problem if you say that the MacBook is inadequate in the base tier and the Dell is adequate in the base tier. That is a value judgement that allows you to make a decision on which one to buy. But if you are using your approach to claim that Apple is needlessly more expensive, then I think you need to compare the same thing between each vendor and note the discrepancies where they can't be reconciled. I'm guessing we won't agree on this point.

[minderbinder]

Thanks for clearing up the price difference on the mac 17, $300 is a better number for the bigger screen.
So answer me this. Why did you upgrade both machines to 2 gigs of ram? And why 7200 rpm drives instead of using the stock config for at least one? Warranty? They start with comparable ones, so why change them?
I'm dying to know, I can't wait to see what excuse you come up with instead of admitting you went through all the specs trying to find the few where apple has a price advantage over dell.
And I don't agree that you have to spend that much on software to get the boxes equivalent. XP pro? Come on. And an office suite? Why? The macbook doesn't include one, just a trial period.
"even the Inspirion 6000 with 15" weighs 2lbs more than the Apple (but of course for minderbinder that is irrelevant)"
Funny, you've never mentioned the weight of their 15 before. But that's OK, it's more fun to put words in my mouth than it is to be honest, right?
"no wireless and no Bluetooth"
Wireless is included and bluetooth is available for $49 on the dell. Are you sure you're looking at the right page? Are you sure I'm the one who's confused? No need to blow a fuse, we're just comparing numbers.

[astromino]

I took 2GB to get a comparable performance. The price difference between 1GB for Apple and Dell are $300 and $325, respectively. So fi you want to downgrade to 1GB each that is fine with me, the price diff is $25 for Del. The speed of the HD is crucial in many applications like video and audio editing, and anyone using Final Cut will tell you that the speed of the HD can have a very large effect. Thus, I choose the 7200rpm for comparision reasons. Even with the 5400 rpm HD, the price difference is another $200, so you end up with less than $500 difference for the Apple and the Dell.

I am not making any excuses. But it is of course, possible to purchase a minimum system "for comparison sakes". But then why bother buying a top-end machine if you cripple it with substandard HD, memory??? Of course the Apple comes standard with many other features like digital audio I/O, dual-link DVI, etc.

The warranty came with it on the Dell site (for large businesses at Dell Large Business site). I did not add the Corel WordPerfect. The site did and it is in the minimum config,

Be serious! Try finding a larger business that runs anything but XP Pro not Home Ed. Just the networking hastles (especially for larger enterprises) are pretty bad, and forget about remote connects without 3rd party tools for XP Home, or enterprise computing and networking (I worked at a place with about 45,000 PCs, and the minimum requirements were XP Professional). Try doing THAT with XP Home.

You can add the wireless card to the Dell for $35.- or you quote $49.-

The warranty was 3yrs for both systems (just for comparison sakes)

Note that the real drawback for the MacBook is the lack of FW800, but the dell does not offer that either. Incidentally, you can buy PC cards for around $70-90 with FW800 ports, so it is NOT a showstopper even for those video types with FW800 libraries.

The bottom line is that even if you use a 1GB memory (minimum on both systems) and 100GB 5400rpm drives, and bluetooth and wireless for both, DVDRW, XP Pro, and otherwise minimal default, you get a total price for the Dell of $2,816 and for the Apple $3,148 (incl. $300 for the 15"->17" upgrade), or a difference of $332.- (Apple more expensice) for the two systems.
If you take out the warranty (i.e. 1 year for both systems) the prices are for the Dell $2,745, and for the Apple $2,499 $300 = $2,799, or [~b]$50.- (Apple premium over the Dell).
Thus, even with your minimal system 1GB, 100GB HD 5400rpm, 1yr warranty, wireless and bluetooth, and minimum software the total price difference is still only $50.- (Apple premium). That is about as close as it gets to a draw if you ask me /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Of course you can also put in the worst possible Dell screen (with <30 horizontal viewing angle which is quite frankly aweful and useless), but even then the Dell costs only about $281 less than the Apple. Still only a ~10% difference, and not the $1-2K that you were so eager to defend in a previous email

In reply to:

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"My point is that some time ago, we would have been arguing about $1-2K price differences."
Sadly, we still are! And unfortunatlely, some people set up bogus comparisons to try and pretend that difference doesn't exist.

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[Deromax]

In reply to:

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<I can't find a single mention of the expected battery life of the MacBook Pro. Has anyone been able to find this info? If not, why not? Is it really bad>
The Apple website gave the ambiguous response that battery life was dependent on what applications a person was using and how they were using them.

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Jobs stated that the processing power is 4 to 5 times more than the previous PB. Elsewhere in the keynotes, he said that efficiency is more than 4 times better than G4. Hence, simple math suggest that the new MacBook will have battery life about the same as that of the G4 PB, assuming a similar battery.
Deromax.