[griffman]

Yes
-rob.

[lipwak]

OK. Apps putting junk in the Documents folder is a problem but what ticks me off are those apps that put files at the root level. Currently in mine:
(For some reason they got rearranged out of alphabetical order. Is that a Camino or OSX problem?...)
2kmseqcookie.sxx
System
Applications (Mac OS 9)
soundData.sxx
Library
System Folder
User Guides And Information
5thElement.sxx
Applications
settings.sxx
Users
cookieVideo.sxx
CNusers.sxx
Installer Log File
The non-OSX files all have no "owner" (open with "none") in the Get Info so I don't know where they came from. Many have .sxx suffixes. According to filext.com (http://filext.com/detaillist.php?extdetail=.sxx&Search=Search) it is created by something that is a "SAS Stat Studio Module Executable". AFAIK I don't have anything from these guys (SAS Institute Inc.) on my machine UNLESS this is some kind of spyware! (Or maybe it is leftover from some porn sites?)

What would anyone recommend to a) prevent these files from appearing there in the first place or b) having them end up in a better place if they really need to be there at all?

Cheers,

John L
WIsh OS 9's ability to save the URL each file was downloaded from would appear in OSX. DownloadComment only works with Safari...

[marybaum]

I'm a believer in the pristine system drive: system, apps, virtual memory. Period.
Documents -- organized by client or pseudoclient (those organizations we all belong to, plus things we do for friends and family) -- go on external drives.

[ljocampo]

This thread is a perfect example to show that Apple, Microsoft, or any particular group doesn't have the monopoly on "Thinking Differently." It's a human issue with no rights or wrongs. How anyone files a document is always personal. The subject is about personal computing. The keyword to this thread was "frustration." The workarounds and solutions were interesting, and I appreciated all of them. Thanks. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Fuper]

It's a simple idea; I'm surprised there are so many sides to it. My choice has been the folder-within-Documents-folder idea. Also, in addition to adding it to my sidebar, I set this folder as the default in all new Finder windows, so burrowing past the cruft in Documents is a rare occurrence. (Any burrowing there is usually up and out, anyway.)
According to various researchers, our minds deal best with arrays of seven or fewer objects at a time: digits in a phone number, menu items on a web page, etc. For this reason, I began combining or deleting files and folders that exceed that number -- and, lo and behold, it works; I can find my way through hierarchies more smoothly. It's amazing, too, how often any extra item, from number eight on, turns out to be superfluous. (Items similar in nature, such as a group of photos, are excepted, of course; any number is fine -- though their folder should hold nothing else.)
If seeing your own folders mixed in with developer stuff doesn't bother you, fine, share the Documents folder, but I function better with my own, user-controlled folder.
I suspect Apple created the Home folder scheme that includes Pictures, Movies, etc. to address at least a couple of areas: First, based on its behavior, Apple's Backup would apparently rather send large media files to local disks, and reserve one's iDisk for files that are likely to be smaller. It's easier to specify such backups when the files are in entirely separate directories. Second, these pre-named folders gently encourage new users to engage in media creation (and thus become even more enthusiastic and dedicated Mac users, to boot). Media files, too, are more likely to proliferate in ways that are more difficult to manage -- the folders for these are like shoeboxes, waiting conveniently.
Since my Tom folder contains only my stuff, I can sort it however I like, no naming tricks needed. For instance, sorting by mod date is useful. Hiding the rogue folders, as mentioned above, is a great idea; I have also wondered whether this Unix thing called a symbolic link could be useful here -- say, for moving the developer items to more a appropriate location without confusing their apps.
As for replacing the Finder, search functions are great, but if I can't choose to browse my own hierarchy to see what's there, I'll feel like slitting my wrists. Google your own drive?! Adjust your query repeatedly until you find what you want, even though you chose a judicious file name and placed it in a meaningfully-labelled folder? Yikes! Maybe for users who employ no file system at all, but not for me.

[bastion]

Not at all. Apple is very clear that applications should place support files in specific subdirectories of ~/Library, not at the root level of ~/Library.
Do you have a citation for that, please? I thought I had seen all of their recommendations about file location, but I've missed that one and I do like to be up-to-date. I see recommendations that certain types of files go into specific preordained locations, but I don't see anything about abstract data stores like the mail archive. The question here is "where should Mail put its stuff if it doesn't belong in ~/Documents?" Nothing in ~/Library/Mail meets my definition of "support files."
As it turns out (I've just found that) ~/Library/Mail is the answer. This document says so. It also notes that Application Support "should never contain any kind of user data" and mail messages are user data even if they're not conceptually user documents.
Safari's a separate issue. And I'm not sure why the Mail Downloads folder is outside of the Mail folder.

[bastion]

Could be also at desktop but that slows mac down as desktop folders use more memory.
Desktop folders use a small amount of memory (each) because the underlying presentation mechanism is that they each exist in their own window. But if you're so low on memory or have so much on your desktop that this is sufficient to trigger swapping that wouldn't otherwise happen I'd think you need more RAM.

[bastion]

I moved the Microsoft User Data folder from Documents to ~/Library/Application Support/ .... Now, the data is stored in Application Support like God and Apple intended,
Apple very specifically didn't intend for a folder called "user data" to be stored in Application Support. The more I look into things to make sure what I'm posting makes sense, the more I understand how some developers are running afoul of Da Rulez. Apple fixed an ambiguity for themselves by documenting that Mail gets a dedicated data folder in ~/Library but where, in general, are developers supposed to put "user data" that isn't traditional documents? Apple says where it doesn't belong, but as far as I can see they don't (explicitly) say where it does.

[Dan Frakes]

Quote:

---

Apple very specifically didn't intend for a folder called "user data" to be stored in Application Support. The more I look into things to make sure what I'm posting makes sense, the more I understand how some developers are running afoul of Da Rulez. Apple fixed an ambiguity for themselves by documenting that Mail gets a dedicated data folder in ~/Library but where, in general, are developers supposed to put "user data" that isn't traditional documents? Apple says where it doesn't belong, but as far as I can see they don't (explicitly) say where it does.

---

Yep, and that's a problem with Apple's guidelines -- they say "user data" doesn't go in ~/Library/Application Support, and that developers should "never install files into a users Documents directory," but they also say developers shouldn't put stuff at the root level of ~/Library (and for good reason, in my opinion).
I would argue that Apple needs a folder in ~/Library called "User Data" into which applications can put "real" data -- such as email databases -- that isn't created directly by the user.

[bastion]

they also say developers shouldn't put stuff at the root level of ~/Library
Still hoping for a citation on that. I'd lean toward the Mail precedent - it's acceptable for an app to put a single, clearly identified folder in ~/Library.
What I wish they'd address is that officially there's no code-writeable location to put files that are intended to be writeable by all users. The same guidelines we've been referencing in this discussion assert that /Users/Shared is someplace code shouldn't write, but where do you put data files, such as high-score lists, that all users might reasonably modify? (Apple's got sample code that addresses that specific case, and it puts it in /Users/Shared. I just wish they'd eliminate the restriction in to guidelines.)

[Dan Frakes]

Quote:

---

Still hoping for a citation on that.

---

I don't have one handy, sorry. I do recall a specific statement, as well as a number of places where the intent is clear by nature of where they tell you to put stuff.

Quote:

---

I'd lean toward the Mail precedent - it's acceptable for an app to put a single, clearly identified folder in ~/Library.

---

I really, really hope that doesn't become even more popular. All that does is clutter the Library folder -- a folder that's supposed to be relatively clean and easy to understand.
A "User Data" folder in Library would be the best solution, I think, all things considered.

[rgerdes]

So, is it bad to have a collection of, say, 5 folders on my desktop to keep stuff in, rather than in the Documents folder? What's the downside of this?

[griffman]

Not much at all -- a huge collection of folders (or anything) on the desktop can use up memory -- each icon requires about 50KB of RAM (as it's actually treated like a little window). But a handful, or even a couple dozen, aren't going to make much of an impact. If you've got hundreds, though, you might want to clean up a bit /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
-rob.

[wlane]

I've been preaching this for years. As one user mentioned, having a Downloads folder also prevents all the Desktop clutter that happens other wise. I keep a Downloads folder on the Desktop (which of course receives all downloads, from Safari, iChat, ftp or whatever), as well a a Limbo folder on the Desktop. Limbo is for 'stuff that I haven't quite decided on yet', am I going to keep it? Toss it? Forward it along to someone? If I'm not sure, then it's 'in Limbo'.