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Pages and Keynote have a new suitemate in Numbers -- an application that adds an Apple-like approach to spreadsheets. Rob Griffiths takes an initial look at this new app, exploring some of its major features and comparing it to Microsoft's Excel. more
First Look: Numbers
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#2
swokm 
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 07:25 PM
Nice article---you answered almost all of the questions I was having about Numbers.
One wonders, though, if it is really Applescript-able? Or if that is even feasible as a replacement for VB macros. Of course, MS seems to think so...
Might be worth taking a peek into its Applescript dictionary.
One wonders, though, if it is really Applescript-able? Or if that is even feasible as a replacement for VB macros. Of course, MS seems to think so...
Might be worth taking a peek into its Applescript dictionary.
#3
griffman
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 07:28 PM
It doesn't have a dictionary. Not even the standard dictionary; if you try to browse to it and open the app in Script Editor, it's grayed out. Keynote and Pages both have dictionaries, but it seems Numbers does not.
-rob.
-rob.
#4
EMoeller
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 07:58 PM
Thanks for the first look, it really did answer many of my questions and I will order my first iWork tonight.
I have recently become a huge fan of mindmapping software. One of my biggest issues with all of those programs is the lack of integration of a spreadsheet. Numbers seems ideally suited to be expanded to become both spreadsheet and mindmap - which for me would be awesome. The best way to integrate the two would be to have the mindmap be just another overlay onto the Numbers sheets with some way to link the two with references. Most mind maps now have built in http and multi page linking so that shouldn't be too difficult.
Expanding further a Google Maps/Google Earth mashup in Numbers would be interesting also -
I agree the lack of macros is a let down, but I wonder if Applescript could be used to do many of the same things as and Excel macro?
Thanks again for a nice review....
I have recently become a huge fan of mindmapping software. One of my biggest issues with all of those programs is the lack of integration of a spreadsheet. Numbers seems ideally suited to be expanded to become both spreadsheet and mindmap - which for me would be awesome. The best way to integrate the two would be to have the mindmap be just another overlay onto the Numbers sheets with some way to link the two with references. Most mind maps now have built in http and multi page linking so that shouldn't be too difficult.
Expanding further a Google Maps/Google Earth mashup in Numbers would be interesting also -
I agree the lack of macros is a let down, but I wonder if Applescript could be used to do many of the same things as and Excel macro?
Thanks again for a nice review....
#6
friccio
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 08:03 PM
I tested the demo version of Numbers and looks very good but as with all spreadsheet applications for Mac with the exception of NeoOffice and OpenOffice (mac native alpha version), you cannot copy a part of a spreasheet and paste it in an email keeping formats and colors. This is really the only thing I would like the Mac to have that is present in Windows and Linux. I use these a lot as I usually have to send reports where part of it is a small table, and is easier to send it in the email than as an attachment. With the alpha version of OpenOffice this works fantastic as it also keeps formatting and colors, but the program is terribly slow, at least in this first version. I just dont understand why apple cannot do it if mail and numbers are both made by them.
#7
heisetax
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 08:12 PM
My first opinion of using Numbers is that it is just a pretty looking version of AppleWorks. The demo looked great. Steve Jobs said that almost all Excel spreadsheets could be read by Numbers. But in my eagerness to find a program I almost forgot that Steve Jobs is really a very good used car salesman. Thus I should remember not to believe much or anything he has to say.
I make my living with my Excel spreadsheets. In my whole income tax program only 1 or 2 sheets was not grayed out. And those couple of sheets either did not open or opened with the cryptic list of errors that were talked about in this article. At the present time I am even less impressed with Numbers than I am with MS Excel 12.0 (2007.)
Since I have purchased each version of Keynote I'll probably end up with the new version in iWork '08. That means that I will have a copy of Numbers. It has certain features that look as if they can be useful. More like using a what-if income goes up or down what will happen. But if Numbers will not read my Excel spreadsheet, then it may be more work to get things to work than its proves useful.
If I was to make my purchase on Numbers alone, the 30-day trail would mean a lost sale. A happier future customer, but no current sale.
As with the arthur, I have used a spreadsheet since about 1978. In those days I used SuperCalc on a CP/M powered HeathKit H8/H89. The earliest one had a cassette drive to load programs. The floppy was nice in those days.
My vote is thumbs down or no more than one mouse out of 10.
I hope to see some more honest opinions here. Not the usual thing of Apple under Steve Jobs doing all right & no wrong. I'm waiting to see.
By the way NeoOffice seems to handle most of my income tax program correctly.
Bill the TaxMan
I make my living with my Excel spreadsheets. In my whole income tax program only 1 or 2 sheets was not grayed out. And those couple of sheets either did not open or opened with the cryptic list of errors that were talked about in this article. At the present time I am even less impressed with Numbers than I am with MS Excel 12.0 (2007.)
Since I have purchased each version of Keynote I'll probably end up with the new version in iWork '08. That means that I will have a copy of Numbers. It has certain features that look as if they can be useful. More like using a what-if income goes up or down what will happen. But if Numbers will not read my Excel spreadsheet, then it may be more work to get things to work than its proves useful.
If I was to make my purchase on Numbers alone, the 30-day trail would mean a lost sale. A happier future customer, but no current sale.
As with the arthur, I have used a spreadsheet since about 1978. In those days I used SuperCalc on a CP/M powered HeathKit H8/H89. The earliest one had a cassette drive to load programs. The floppy was nice in those days.
My vote is thumbs down or no more than one mouse out of 10.
I hope to see some more honest opinions here. Not the usual thing of Apple under Steve Jobs doing all right & no wrong. I'm waiting to see.
By the way NeoOffice seems to handle most of my income tax program correctly.
Bill the TaxMan
#9
heisetax
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 08:22 PM
Quote:
Thanks for the first look, it really did answer many of my questions and I will order my first iWork tonight.
I have recently become a huge fan of mindmapping software. One of my biggest issues with all of those programs is the lack of integration of a spreadsheet. Numbers seems ideally suited to be expanded to become both spreadsheet and mindmap - which for me would be awesome. The best way to integrate the two would be to have the mindmap be just another overlay onto the Numbers sheets with some way to link the two with references. Most mind maps now have built in http and multi page linking so that shouldn't be too difficult.
Expanding further a Google Maps/Google Earth mashup on my Intel Mac Pro. in Numbers would be interesting also -
I agree the lack of macros is a let down, but I wonder if Applescript could be used to do many of the same things as and Excel macro?
Thanks again for a nice review....
Thanks for the first look, it really did answer many of my questions and I will order my first iWork tonight.
I have recently become a huge fan of mindmapping software. One of my biggest issues with all of those programs is the lack of integration of a spreadsheet. Numbers seems ideally suited to be expanded to become both spreadsheet and mindmap - which for me would be awesome. The best way to integrate the two would be to have the mindmap be just another overlay onto the Numbers sheets with some way to link the two with references. Most mind maps now have built in http and multi page linking so that shouldn't be too difficult.
Expanding further a Google Maps/Google Earth mashup on my Intel Mac Pro. in Numbers would be interesting also -
I agree the lack of macros is a let down, but I wonder if Applescript could be used to do many of the same things as and Excel macro?
Thanks again for a nice review....
Remember, Numbers is a version 1.0 replacement for AppleWorks spreadsheet. Numbers just looks prettier. Numbers just wanted to compete with Excel 12.0 (2008) which will not support VBA. This means no macros after the current version. But at least MS Excel is scriptable. Unless Steve Jobs pulls another one of those things of getting you to use a program then eliminating it & not selling it to a third party, then I would expect applescript support in the future. Just how long I am not sure. Probably after you find something else to use. I plan on staying with Excel 11 (Excel 2004) on my Intel MacPro. TAoo many things that I do not like in Excel 12.0 & Numbers to change in the near (1 year) future.
Bill the TaxMan
#10
lkrupp
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 08:24 PM
"I hope to see some more honest opinions here. Not the usual thing of Apple under Steve Jobs doing all right & no wrong. I'm waiting to see."
I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion that Numbers would be an exact, work-alike clone of Excel? What made you think you would be able to import an Excel spreadsheet and have it work and act like it was running on Excel itself? I don' recall Apple advertising anything like this. If your custom spreadsheets use proprietary functions and features of Excel why would you expect Numbers to just work without alteration or tweaking of those sheets?
Instead of criticizing the program because it's not an Excel clone why not try building a few sheets to see if it can do the job on its own with its own features?
I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion that Numbers would be an exact, work-alike clone of Excel? What made you think you would be able to import an Excel spreadsheet and have it work and act like it was running on Excel itself? I don' recall Apple advertising anything like this. If your custom spreadsheets use proprietary functions and features of Excel why would you expect Numbers to just work without alteration or tweaking of those sheets?
Instead of criticizing the program because it's not an Excel clone why not try building a few sheets to see if it can do the job on its own with its own features?
#11
longofest
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 08:43 PM
In my opinion, your first look is only solidifying the idea that iWork is not meant to be a MS Office replacement, but rather a complement, depending on the kind of work you do.
In the past, if I do heavy page-layout stuff that I don't need to share with anyone, I will use Pages because it has the upper-hand in that arena. Similarly, I will use keynote if I know I can use my Mac to give a presentation and I really want to jazz it up. However, if compatibility with others is key, or I need to have certain advanced features (such as reviewing support, which Pages hasn't supported up until now), I use MS Office.
In the end, I like having both. And no, I won't be upgrading to Office 2008. Like so many others, the VBA Macro support is just too key to Microsoft Office for me to even think about purchasing a version that doesn't have it.
In the past, if I do heavy page-layout stuff that I don't need to share with anyone, I will use Pages because it has the upper-hand in that arena. Similarly, I will use keynote if I know I can use my Mac to give a presentation and I really want to jazz it up. However, if compatibility with others is key, or I need to have certain advanced features (such as reviewing support, which Pages hasn't supported up until now), I use MS Office.
In the end, I like having both. And no, I won't be upgrading to Office 2008. Like so many others, the VBA Macro support is just too key to Microsoft Office for me to even think about purchasing a version that doesn't have it.
#12
swokm
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 08:51 PM
Thanks again for the follow up.
I... I have to wonder what the heck is going on at Apple. I know Numbers is v1.0, I'm sure many updates will follow. But I thought that once the OS development had slowed and matured, there would be less holes in Application releases. I guess I'm in the minority now that remembers the clarity, elegance, small touches of Apple's Applications as one of their hallmarks more than the Hardware. Of course, Steve doesn't say "insanely great software" anymore, but IIRC "it's all about the software" came up repeatedly in his Keynotes. Perhaps that means a shift from highly detailed to higher volumes.
Hopefully, Steve hasn't burned up too many engineers by pushing them too hard:
"Hurry! Gotta get Tiger out! Hurry! Gotta get iPhone to FCC before any leaks! Hurry! Gotta get the new iLife shipping we already missed a year! Take your vacation next decade, we're too busy!)
Not that that is the case, I don't know any Apple engineers, but one wonders.
Anyway, back OT, I think there is a real opportunity to allow normal users to create nice Filemaker-app like documents with Automator/Applescript if Apple really wanted to. One-click publishing to your "Sites" folder an identically-functioning/looking, dynamic page of related sortable tables, for example, with SQLite/AJAX controls and zero configuration would be...
... well it'd be insanely great software.
I... I have to wonder what the heck is going on at Apple. I know Numbers is v1.0, I'm sure many updates will follow. But I thought that once the OS development had slowed and matured, there would be less holes in Application releases. I guess I'm in the minority now that remembers the clarity, elegance, small touches of Apple's Applications as one of their hallmarks more than the Hardware. Of course, Steve doesn't say "insanely great software" anymore, but IIRC "it's all about the software" came up repeatedly in his Keynotes. Perhaps that means a shift from highly detailed to higher volumes.
Hopefully, Steve hasn't burned up too many engineers by pushing them too hard:
"Hurry! Gotta get Tiger out! Hurry! Gotta get iPhone to FCC before any leaks! Hurry! Gotta get the new iLife shipping we already missed a year! Take your vacation next decade, we're too busy!)
Not that that is the case, I don't know any Apple engineers, but one wonders.
Anyway, back OT, I think there is a real opportunity to allow normal users to create nice Filemaker-app like documents with Automator/Applescript if Apple really wanted to. One-click publishing to your "Sites" folder an identically-functioning/looking, dynamic page of related sortable tables, for example, with SQLite/AJAX controls and zero configuration would be...
... well it'd be insanely great software.
#13
heisetax
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 09:04 PM
Thanks for your comment.
The thing I didn't say is that other than being 65 separately linked workbooks, each sheet can stand on its own. No unsupported functions that are in Numbers were used. Only about three of the sheets have any macros in them. Income tax programs do not use very high math. Just simple addition, subtraction, multiplication & division. A few have table lookups, but for the most part they are just a lot of liked yet independent sheets. Out of the 65 or so sheets only
2 were not grayed out.
Steve Jobs did state several times that Numbers would open most Excel spreadsheets. 1 out of 65 is not most in my book. It seems that you heard different things than I did.
A little tweaking is one thing, but the file not even opening is a little more generally than tweaking.
As was mentioned by the author, those that have used Excel or other spreadsheets for 20 years will have more trouble that those with little experience. I agree with him. I know where to find things in Excel, but not in Numbers. I've used Excel for over 22 years now & SuperCalc before that. Since Excel could do so much more that SuperCalc the change was much easier.
A few things that I did not like was that if I wanted to add one cell to another cell, I could not just click on the cell to put the cell address into the formula. This simple action required many more key strokes to do. If I already had a value in a cell, usually all you have to do is key another value into that cell & all is good. Clicking on the cell & keying in a number put the cell into an edit mode & just added the number(s) to what was already in the cell.
These actions are about as basic as you can have in a spreadsheet. Is this 22 years of Excel use that is causing the problem or does Numbers just have to be that much different from other sheets to not allow these actions? If Steve Jobs hadn't continually mentioned that most Excel sheets could be opened & worked with in Numbers & that Numbers spreadsheets could be uploaded by Excel than I wouldn't be so surprised. Maybe just as unhappy, just not so surprised.
Have you used Numbers yet? Or are you basing your comments on what you have seen demonstrated by Steve Jobs? If you haven't used it then use it & give some more comments. If you are not a regular spreadsheet user state that also. For small simple spreadsheets of of the infrequent spreadsheet user then you may be happy. I've just used Excel for too long.
I have used Apple(Claris)Woorks, Lotus123 & many many more spreadsheets on my Mac. So far only Excel & NeoOffice seem to handle my needs. I keep looking for an Excel replacement. Numbers just seems not to be it at the present time.
Thanks again for your comment,
Bill the TaxMan
The thing I didn't say is that other than being 65 separately linked workbooks, each sheet can stand on its own. No unsupported functions that are in Numbers were used. Only about three of the sheets have any macros in them. Income tax programs do not use very high math. Just simple addition, subtraction, multiplication & division. A few have table lookups, but for the most part they are just a lot of liked yet independent sheets. Out of the 65 or so sheets only
2 were not grayed out.
Steve Jobs did state several times that Numbers would open most Excel spreadsheets. 1 out of 65 is not most in my book. It seems that you heard different things than I did.
A little tweaking is one thing, but the file not even opening is a little more generally than tweaking.
As was mentioned by the author, those that have used Excel or other spreadsheets for 20 years will have more trouble that those with little experience. I agree with him. I know where to find things in Excel, but not in Numbers. I've used Excel for over 22 years now & SuperCalc before that. Since Excel could do so much more that SuperCalc the change was much easier.
A few things that I did not like was that if I wanted to add one cell to another cell, I could not just click on the cell to put the cell address into the formula. This simple action required many more key strokes to do. If I already had a value in a cell, usually all you have to do is key another value into that cell & all is good. Clicking on the cell & keying in a number put the cell into an edit mode & just added the number(s) to what was already in the cell.
These actions are about as basic as you can have in a spreadsheet. Is this 22 years of Excel use that is causing the problem or does Numbers just have to be that much different from other sheets to not allow these actions? If Steve Jobs hadn't continually mentioned that most Excel sheets could be opened & worked with in Numbers & that Numbers spreadsheets could be uploaded by Excel than I wouldn't be so surprised. Maybe just as unhappy, just not so surprised.
Have you used Numbers yet? Or are you basing your comments on what you have seen demonstrated by Steve Jobs? If you haven't used it then use it & give some more comments. If you are not a regular spreadsheet user state that also. For small simple spreadsheets of of the infrequent spreadsheet user then you may be happy. I've just used Excel for too long.
I have used Apple(Claris)Woorks, Lotus123 & many many more spreadsheets on my Mac. So far only Excel & NeoOffice seem to handle my needs. I keep looking for an Excel replacement. Numbers just seems not to be it at the present time.
Thanks again for your comment,
Bill the TaxMan
#14
tybowen
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Posted 08 August 2007 - 09:06 PM
I use excel at work to make bar and line graphs and the main issue I have with it is that added graphs/text boxes/lines/etc. do not stay constant from saving to reopening or printing. This isn't a rare once in a bluemoon type thing. it is every. single. graph. It's really annoying and agrevating to have your graphs perfect and click print and have the text change size, selection boxes shink (cutting off parts of their content) or have a whole graph change size. Does numbers fix that? Everyone at my office has the same issue and it causes alot of extra work.
