[macFanDave]

Quote:

---

macfanDave,
Double Y graphs are possible in Excel. In the source data / series tab for a chart you need to click Add and put in the cells for the other data set.

---

That's not what I am talking about. A double-Y graph has two completely different scales on each side. Suppose you have an engine where the torque goes to 100 ft-lbs at most and the horsepower goes to 300. On an Excel graph, the torque curve is going to be squashed into the bottom 1/3 of the graph if the scale can accommodate the 300 hp. The current hack is to present the horsepower as hp/3 and confine it to the 0-100 range. Typically these curves would have arrows pointing to the left or right to indicate which scale they are related to.
Thanks for trying to help anyway. :-)

[palane]

Quote:

---

Scientific users would use R, S, Matlab, SpotFire, etc. What would be nice with Numbers would be: AppleScript support, better file-format support, the ability to use it a a source for merging (e.g., mailing lists) with pages and Keynote, and fixes to X-Y graphs. I think it would have been nice to support things like pivot tables and more statistical functions and graphing, but I accept that that's not necessary. I don't think the app intends to be an "Excel Killer", even Excel is very long in the tooth -- I know many scientists that have long since outgrown it.

---

I so wish that were the case. You wouldn't believe the number of lousy looking Excel graphs I've seen in presentations over the years (even recently). As for me, I start with Excel for playing with numbers, send to Kaleidagraph once I've got what I want, and polish off my graphics in Canvas.
I prefer working in Excel as I explicitly control the fitting routines and parameters. Between various look-up functions (Index in particular) and the Solver, I get enough functionality to avoid the high-powered (and priced) scientific apps.
Sadly, the third leg of my tripod was just kicked out from under me (ACDSee has stopped Canvas development). I would hope to see "Draw" as a new component to the next version of iWork.
BB

[jbh001]

I was disappointed not to see anything on Numbers OFX capabilities/shortcomings.

[bigpics]

Quote:

---

This review seems a bit harsh as you're comparing something that costs one third of $79 to something that costs $199 on it's own.
In my opinion, Numbers is perfect for the kind of things that the vast majority of people do with spreadsheets. It's way more than just competent.
As for people wanting scientific graphing: http://www.graphsketcher.com/

---

I actually found the review refreshingly frank and helpful from the point of view of helping me know both the pros and pitfalls of deciding to investigate this tool.
As an old Windows hand who switched two years ago, I've been getting by with my old WordPerfect suite SS's which don't import into Excel with any useful formulas, and though I've tried many times, just can't grasp the Excel idiom on either Mac or Win. It's simply opaque and impenetrable to me. And though I've mastered Word for regular docs, I have no affection for it at all, being a WordPerfect "reveal codes" junkie from way back, who can make a WP doc sing and dance like a combo page layout/tables program.
My primary data need is for one or two tools to help me manage my investment portfolio, and all my formulas use simple functions likely available in any SS. And the review has convinced me that for those needs, Numbers might flatten the new spreadsheet learning curve I inevitably face. So I will now at least try the trial download. And maybe find along with a simpler, more intuitive approach to Spreadsheets a word processor that I can feel a little of my old love for, at least for specific types of docs.
So, Rob, continue to give me reviews that neither "fear nor favor" the company all of us on these boards are so linked to. And as for the argument that you're comparing a multi-hundreds of dollars product to a sub-$100 one, the major point of the review of the PROGRAM is to help us decide if it meets our needs, whatever the cost.
Value for cash expended is not unimportant, but is really a separate issue -- and if one then determines that Numbers will do what they need, the fact that it costs $80 or $40 or $26 something (depending on how much of the whole suite you'll use) just becomes a "whoo-hoo!" bonus.
FYI, I slightly slammed the iMac review for failing to be as dispassionate and informational as this one, so I'm at least consistent.

[repi]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

macfanDave,
Double Y graphs are possible in Excel. In the source data / series tab for a chart you need to click Add and put in the cells for the other data set.

---

That's not what I am talking about. A double-Y graph has two completely different scales on each side. Suppose you have an engine where the torque goes to 100 ft-lbs at most and the horsepower goes to 300. On an Excel graph, the torque curve is going to be squashed into the bottom 1/3 of the graph if the scale can accommodate the 300 hp. The current hack is to present the horsepower as hp/3 and confine it to the 0-100 range. Typically these curves would have arrows pointing to the left or right to indicate which scale they are related to.
Thanks for trying to help anyway. :-)

---

That is exactly what you can do in Excel! Once you have created a graph with at least two dataseries, you can doubleclick on a series in the graph and under tab "Axis" choose "Secondary axis". This creates a second Y axis on the right of the graph for which you can set the scale independently of the left (primary) Y axis. The arrows you would need to add yourself though.
In terms of general impressions with Numbers. I love the Numbers' ability to set tables, graphs, graphic elements and text on the sheet. For the applications included in the templates, Numbers is great and I am looking forward to using it. I just wish it would (even for the more simple projects) include some of the rest of the functions offered by Excel. In general Numbers is for me a pleasant addition. It just can not replace Excel as a number (and text) crunching workhorse that it is. I need to be able to access it programatically (AppleScript), I need the additional formulas, I need the graphing flexibility. Excel has a very cumbersome graphing engine and horrible default graphs, but with some effort you can create good graphs and save them as templates for later use. I guess Excel and Numbers should not even be directly compared. It's like comparing Photoshop to a light Aperture or iPhoto.

[griffman]

Given all the other things I wanted to discuss, there simply wasn't room to cover everything, and OFX was one of those things.
Since my bank and brokerage don't use OFX, I haven't tested it myself, but Numbers purports to open these file just fine. I haven't seen any complaints about people having issues with it, either, though that doesn't mean much.
I'd suggest downloading the free trial and seeing how well (or not well) it does with your OFX files.
-rob.

[MacTel]

Quote:

---

Scientific users would use R, S, Matlab, SpotFire, etc. What would be nice with Numbers would be: AppleScript support, better file-format support, the ability to use it a a source for merging (e.g., mailing lists) with pages and Keynote, and fixes to X-Y graphs. I think it would have been nice to support things like pivot tables and more statistical functions and graphing, but I accept that that's not necessary. I don't think the app intends to be an "Excel Killer", even Excel is very long in the tooth -- I know many scientists that have long since outgrown it.

---

Those scientists may have outgrown Excel probably because they didn't know about its expandability. Excel has a thriving eco-system with add-ins and one of the major ones our scientists use is XLFit. We probably have a half-dozen to a dozen different add-ins that we license for Excel.
An add-in framework for Numbers would certainly be a step in the right direction to getting Numbers in as a replacement product for Excel. By this and other reviews though, I see Apple needs to work on stability, performance, and macro integratioin before that. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Joe_Mac_User]

I just came across this in my RSS feed from Apple Support Articles.
http://docs.info.app...l?artnum=306268
iWork '08: Spreadsheet size limitations in Numbers
Your ability to open a large Numbers file or import a large Microsoft Excel file into Numbers '08 may be constrained by the amount of memory installed on your computer. This constraint adjusts with the addition and removal of memory from the computer.
Use the table below to estimate the sizes of Numbers and Excel files that are supported by different amounts of installed memory.
(see link for table)

[Axl]

Quote:

---

A better mouse rating would probably read something like this:
For users who think Excel is too complex or too expensive, and need only work with smaller models: 5 mice
For experienced Excel users hoping to migrate to Numbers, and who work with large, complex data models: 1 mouse
* For AppleWorks users hoping to migrate: 3 mice

---

Now, THAT would be a useful way of applying star ratings. Can you please do this always in the future? That little example highlights the problem with reviews (and also solves that problem). I mean, how can you apply a general rating to an iLife or an iWorks ap? It HAS to be done as above. The only problem might be that we'll all have much less to gripe about when we read the reviews /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
As a point of interest - the ap was marked down because it was unsuitable for high end excel users. Would you mark down FCP because it was unsuitable for home movie makers? Hmmm... what to do, what to do? I know, qualify the star rating. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MacTel]

Quote:

---

I just came across this in my RSS feed from Apple Support Articles.
http://docs.info.app...l?artnum=306268
iWork '08: Spreadsheet size limitations in Numbers
Your ability to open a large Numbers file or import a large Microsoft Excel file into Numbers '08 may be constrained by the amount of memory installed on your computer. This constraint adjusts with the addition and removal of memory from the computer.
Use the table below to estimate the sizes of Numbers and Excel files that are supported by different amounts of installed memory.
(see link for table)

---

Wow, I hope that the Apple developers are working on a patch that will serialize some of the work (i.e. use the hard disk for virtual memory). That seems a bit odd to have such a restriction.

[macFanDave]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

macfanDave,
Double Y graphs are possible in Excel. In the source data / series tab for a chart you need to click Add and put in the cells for the other data set.

---

That's not what I am talking about. A double-Y graph has two completely different scales on each side.. . .

---

That is exactly what you can do in Excel! Once you have created a graph with at least two dataseries, you can doubleclick on a series in the graph and under tab "Axis" choose "Secondary axis". This creates a second Y axis on the right of the graph for which you can set the scale independently of the left (primary) Y axis. The arrows you would need to add yourself though.

---

Now, THAT'S what I'm talking about! The original suggestion involved putting a second series onto an XY chart, but you've explained how to drill down to the "Secondary Axis" options. Thanks!

[griffman]

Now, THAT would be a useful way of applying star ratings. Can you please do this always in the future?
Well, the problem with this approach is ... we then have to make judgemental calls about how to segregate the users /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Also, in all the reviews I've done, this is really the first one that felt like it could have any of three different ratings, depending on audience. So I just tried to make sure I addressed the potential users' needs in the body of the text, so that they'd all have some feel for the good and the bad.
As a point of interest - the ap was marked down because it was unsuitable for high end excel users. Would you mark down FCP because it was unsuitable for home movie makers?
A fairer comparison would be the other direction: Steve Jobs stands up on stage and says "The new iMovie '08 will open all your Final Cut Pro projects!" That statement would certainly imply that iMovie '08 could be used to edit FCP projects, wouldn't it? Well, that's exactly what he said about Excel, so it was a fair thing to look at. Also, quite a few potential Numbers users are currently using Excel, and yet looking for a native (on Intel) or more modern solution that might fit their needs. It's doubtful that anyone currently using Final Cut Pro is looking for a better alternative on their Mac /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
-rob.

[Luke_Macwalker]

Quote:

---

Traditionally, spreadsheet programs have presented users with a full-screen grid of rows and columns. Numbers, however, is more like a page layout programyou start with a blank canvas, into which you can drag as many tables as you need onto the work area. Each table is a miniature spreadsheet of its own, complete with its own grid of rows and columns, cell formatting options, and row and column heights and widths.

---

Actually, it was also possible to do that in AppleWorks. In a word processing document or in a draw canvas or in a presentation document, selecting the spreadsheet tool then click & dragging on the page would create a new table spreadsheet on this page. You could even create another table in a spreadsheet document by option-click & dragging in the spreadsheet document. I don't remember that it was possible to link these tables; however, you could use the link tool to link different parts of one table that appeared at different places on the page. Not bad for such an old software, isn't it? /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
But I'm sure Numbers does a better job at formating these independent tables...

[eyeless]

Hi, One comment on the review:
"You can also work with Apple Address Book contacts via drag-and-drop from the Address Book, though you have to format your table properly to accept the dragged-in data."
Actually, you could simply drop address cards -- or better -- a whole group of addresses on an empty sheet in Numbers and get the table created and laid out for you in 2-3 seconds. (By default they hide several columns -- unhide them and you will see that all info is in the table!) Tip for the day! /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /Jerry