[Dan Frakes]

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There are TWO issues here.
One is, is iMovie 08 a good product for people who want a very simple video editor?
The other is, is Apple leaving more advance video users high and dry by removing iMovie HD and replacing it with a much more simple video editor?

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I was going to post pretty much the same thing, but Jason beat me to it /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Axl]

Every one that hates the idea of iMovie 08 LOVES iMovie 06. It seems it was, sorry, is, the perfect piece of software and if that is the case it will remain good for a good old while yet. In the meantime watch Apple upgrade iMovie 08 with API's, a time line etc (and hopefully a way of recording final projects back to tape, just for me). I agree with the point made above that iMovie 08 seems a rushed project. There is too much missing for it to be a mature piece of software. Either the next version will have a bunch of invokable features or else a dumbed down (sorry, simplified) version of FCE, probably called iMovie Pro will appear. What people are saying about the codebase implies that this is a new beginning, and if iMovie 08 is based on FC code which I seem to remember being mentioned, a closer relationship between the two apps will develop. It doesn't make sense for Apple to have two video apps with absolutely no shared features nor natural upgrade path for the 'power user'. I feel confident there is a long term view at work here. Who knows but I am sure the angry masses wont be left hung out to dry. So, while I personally am very happy to get a dumbed down version of iMovie, the anger expressed here and everywhere else iMovie 08 is mentioned will surely not fall on deaf ears.

[TenaciousN8]

I am all for the new layout, skimming feature, unified video library, and much increased ease of use of the new iMovie. I overall love the direction they've taken with the program, but would really, really, really like to see them bring back video effects and also a way to adjust sound volume levels. Also, put back in chapter markers and I'd be 100% satisfied witht the new iMovie. My only complaint is that it seems they've taken the room for creativity out of the new program, and instead have made an easy way to string clips together, and that's about it. It wouldn't complicate the program by adding video effects, and users that wanted to keep it simple and quick would have that option. Hopefully they add this in ASAP! Other than that, I like it.

[brickwell]

I don't think it's a hit for consumers. Since when does dropping out functionality and abandoning user base constitute a hit? I have been an iMovie user since version 3. It's always gotten better with each release until now. I was playing with it for an hour before I decided to look up on the forums to see if I had suddenly become too stupid to figure out where the effects, etc., were and then I see that most of them are gone as is the timeline. "WTF?", I thought. So three times now I've tried to embrace the new iMovie and each time I have just shut it down and given up.
I think back fondly on the time when Apple proudly announced that a feature length indie film had been created with iMovie. Now all you can make is a short video of Uncle Leo being hit in the nuts with a teeball bat. Is this new iMovie easier to use? Allow me to quote (roughly) MacLife magazine from two months ago, "iMovie HD has no learning curve". Well, how much easier can an application get? In my opinion the new interface is like a shiny car with no engine and the ergonomics of a Rube Goldberg device.
I am disgusted with Apple for doing this to my favorite app. iMovie made me a mac fan and has now been dumped for this re-imagined, shiny but weak aplication. Maybe by version 12 or so it will have enough features but then should we expect it to be dumbed down again because it's too complex for a simpleton to figure out? Apple made this change because iMovie HD had gotten too good and was robbing sales of Final Cut express. As for the story of the engineer just writing it... I really doubt the veracity of that statement. It sounds like pure marketing hype. If true however, it's really sad to think that a favorite application of many was killed by the whims of a single employee who couldn't figure out how to use a simple and fun tool.

[montgomery_burns]

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Allow me to quote (roughly) MacLife magazine from two months ago, "iMovie HD has no learning curve". Well, how much easier can an application get? In my opinion the new interface is like a shiny car with no engine and the ergonomics of a Rube Goldberg device.

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It's curious how last year, people were praising iMovie 06 for its functionality and ease of use. But now that iMovie 08 is out, are these same people now suddenly admitting to having difficulties with the previous version?

[davedawgnyc]

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I disagree. I have the interest and motivation. It's just that -- like everyone else -- I have limited hours in the day and demands on that time, and apparently making movies out of my DV tapes is lower on my priority list than it is on yours. To you, that apparently means I have no right to an opinion on iMovie. But the fact remains that if the process of making movies from my DV tapes was faster and easier, I'd be able to squeeze it in more often. So, as much as you may hate that a "casual video guy" like me is going to be making more movies now, I kind of like it.

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You know me so well. By the way, who's "Frank"?

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you seem to have plenty of time to trawl the messageboards. maybe you could have learned iMovie HD 6 by now and gone through some of those DV tapes? it has been out for over the past year and a half right?
i guess not enough interest and motivation then.
the fact that you're harping on gmill's typo of your name just shows how close to home he hits you. gmill's right. if you really wanted those DV tapes edited, you'd have done it, just like everyone else who didn't need to wait for a dumbed down version of imovie as inspiration to move their lazy butts.

[davedawgnyc]

i'd like to quote the opening paragraph of macworld's own review of imovie hd 6:
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When it was introduced last year, iMovie HD (4.0 mice; April 2005) added groundbreaking features to Apples entry-level video editor: support for high-definition video editing, the ability to include multiple formats (such as HD, standard DV, and wide-screen DV) in the same project, and performance enhancements that longtime iMovie fans had been waiting for.
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so know we're to applaud imovie '08 taking two steps back in features and functionality for the sake of simplicity? is that what longtime imovie fans have been waiting for now?
i don't think so.

[Machound]

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There are TWO issues here.
One is, is iMovie 08 a good product for people who want a very simple video editor?
The other is, is Apple leaving more advance video users high and dry by removing iMovie HD and replacing it with a much more simple video editor?

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Well said, but there's a third issue: HDV camcorder owners are left holding an empty bag. Forget all the U.I. concerns. We can't use iMovie '08 at all with our camcorders except in 480i mode. And the people who imported dozens of 1080i tapes into iMovie HD can no longer see nor access thier recordings except by using the EOL'ed iMovie HD. Thanks a lot, Apple!
A number of people writing here seem to think a polished Final Cut Express update is due soon. I see no evidence to support that thinking. I find lots of evidence that FCE is being quietly EOL'ed, just as iMovie HD was EOL'ed. FCE is another un-Mac-like program with a steep learning curve. It shares many of iMovie HD's shortcomings, such as poor video transcoding quality and lack of native MPEG2 (HDV) support. Apple needs to get busy working on FCE or give FCE a proper funeral!
I've been upset with Apple's crppy MPEG2 support for years, and that's not going to get any better. Meanwhile, the Windows OS alternatives to this Apple mess just keep getting better. Sony Vegas has a huge-and-growing following including quite a few former Mac users. It's the new "switch" campaign in reverse. Sony Vegas, BTW, offers no-hassles Blu-Ray burning since last year. It works directly with HDV files (.m2t) without intermediate codecs. It reportedly has superb transcoding quality, unlike Apple's video editors (even FCS). The downside to Vegas, I've read, is its learning curve for those used to other NLEs.
I'll jump on the Sony Vegas bandwagon once version 8 becomes available this autumn. Bye-bye Apple video editing! Hello Sony Vegas!

[griffman]

"you seem to have plenty of time to trawl the messageboards. maybe you could have learned iMovie HD 6 by now and gone through some of those DV tapes?"
You do understand, I hope, that "trawling" the message boards is part of our job, and not part of our free time. iMovie HD editing, on the other hand, clearly falls into the "free time" category. As such, it's completely understandable why Dan would have time to read and post here (as he is required to do so), and not have time to learn iMovie HD (as he can do so only when he has free time).
My feelings, as expressed by others here, is that Apple screwed up big time by packaging this as the replacement for iMovie HD. If they had introduced it as iMovie Lite, and given us even some minor improvements to iMovie HD, then there wouldn't be any grousing at all. Instead, they summarily killed a feature-laden, powerful, and yet still (compared to FCE/FCP) amazingly easy to use program. That was just dumb, and I hope (but doubt) the amount of feedback from iMovie HD users will affect their future plans.
-rob.

[Machound]

Rob,
I am saddened to see this discussion turn to personal attacks. That's not in the usual spirit of the Mac community. I hope everybody can lick their wounds and get back to why we're here.
Regarding your thoughts about the future of iMovie, I believe you are probably correct. This is a change of course for Apple. They're cutting ties with the past, and in so-doing they'yre proving to those of us with connections to the past that it's time to look elsewhere for solutions.
That said, I'm so glad I made a decision regarding my Sony HC3 camcorder that I stuck with since I got it last year: I captured all my videos to HD using a program from Apple's Firewire SDK, DVHSCap.app, which leaves my videos as unedited whole .m2t files complete with time code... in other words, bit-perfect copies of my tapes. M2t files are not convenient to edit with any of Apple's programs (the workflow requires MPEG Streamclip conversion to AIC) or to watch (requires VLC, which has some trouble with .m2t), but they're perfectly ready for future editing in Sony Vegas. If I had not made this decision last year I would now be faced with reimporting all my tapes. With over 30 hours of accumulated videos, I would have wasted a lot of time just on the reimportation.
Like others here, I lack confidence in Apple's vision for video editing and capture. It's an "Apple's Way or the Highway" attitude. Apple seems to be wandering aimlessly. I choose the highway.
Hello Sony Vegas! Goodbye iMovie and FCE.
I'm sure I am not alone in making this decision.

[montgomery_burns]

Macworld iMovie HD 6 review, January 2006:
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Cons: Locked clips dont always stay locked; a few cosmetic glitches persist; performance annoyingly seems to vary by machine.
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It's curious that all the complaints of complicated interfaces and lack of simplicity were not listed among the cons in the original review. If people really did have those issues with the iMovie 6 interface, then why didn't they complain about it back then? Why are people suddenly admitting these issues now?
Before Apple ever announced the development of Mac OS X, a number of Apple defenders were dismissing complaints of OS 9's deficiencies such as lack of preemptive multitasking and the need to manually assign memory to each application. "Who needs these features?", they said. "Average users won't notice" was another rationalization at the time. But when Apple released OS X, suddenly those supposed non-issues in OS 9 really are deficiencies. Why do people do that?
If Apple ever restores all the missing features in iMovie 8, then I would expect all the readers and reviewers who are currently defending iMovie 8's newfound simplicity to criticize the restoration of those advanced features. But I have a feeling that the same people who are defending iMovie 8 now will simply change their story again and make remarks such as "I couldn't do anything in iMovie 8. The new iMovie is so much more functional it makes iMovie 8 look like a toy..."

[Chris Breen]

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It's curious that all the complaints of complicated interfaces and lack of simplicity were not listed among the cons in the original review. If people really did have those issues with the iMovie 6 interface, then why didn't they complain about it back then? Why are people suddenly admitting these issues now?

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Because you're looking at the perspective of someone who's intimately familiar with iMovie and, likely, other video editing applications as well. They wouldn't find the interface confusing because they're accustomed not only to non-linear video editing applications but also the previous five versions of iMovie.
So, from the perspective of someone who's familiar with iMovie, no problem sussing out the interface. What this discussion is about is whether people not familiar with iMovie or other video editors find it too daunting to tackle. Apple clearly believes that was the case.

[Dan Frakes]

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you seem to have plenty of time to trawl the messageboards. maybe you could have learned iMovie HD 6 by now and gone through some of those DV tapes?

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As soon as I get paid to edit my vacation movies, I'll spend as much time doing that as I do participating in my employer's Web forums /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
But on a serious note, my point in discussing my own non-use of iMovie HD was only that if I, an editor at a Mac magazine, found iMovie HD to require more of a time commitment than I've been able to give it, I think there's a sizable market for something like iMovie '08. Nothing more, nothing less; and notice I didn't say there was anything wrong with iMovie HD.

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the fact that you're harping on gmill's typo of your name

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A single comment, intended to be humorous, is now considered "harping"? Tough crowd /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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If you really wanted those DV tapes edited, you'd have done it, just like everyone else who didn't need to wait for a dumbed down version of imovie as inspiration to move their lazy butts.

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With all due respect, I think you should read the entire discussion again, because you're making the same flawed argument as gmill: you're misinterpreting praise for iMovie '08 as an easy-to-use movie editor to instead be criticism of iMovie HD or a suggestion that iMovie '08 is "better" than iMovie HD.
This isn't be a zero-sum game. It's not illogical for me to like iMovie '08 for what it is and also hope that Apple doesn't leave the people who were heavy users of iMovie HD, and are justifiably upset, out in the cold.
I hope Apple (quickly) enhances iMovie '08's functionality so it's not lacking so many features compared to iMovie HD. Or perhaps the company could improve Final Cut Express's ease of use and lower its price.

[cseeman]

and maybe what is called iMovie 08 should have been iMovieLite.
This would assume that Apple could have then "bought time" to come out with an update to iMovie 06.
I don't doubt there is a real need for something easier than iMovie. I don't knock the review for it's honest evaluation of this New (NOT updated) product. I don't doubt that new Mac buyers will like it. I don't doubt those who couldn't handle previous versions of iMovie will find iMovie 08 easy.
BUT for those who wait for plugin compatibility (if that's on the road map) and chapter markers for use with iDVD, based on Apple's past pattern, that may not happen for a 12 to 18 months until iLife 09.
In the meantime Apple has abandoned the installed base of iMovie 06 users (apparently). Whether it's iMovie Pro or a $79 crossgrade to FCE, they need to act IMHO (or free - see below). At the very least they need to announce that they will act.
I remember some years back that Apple had a time limited exchange program where any Adobe Premiere disc sent in would be exchanged for a FREE copy of Final Cut Express. While FCE is very different than iMovie 06, such a gesture could solve this mess.
Apple can publicly acknowledge an EOL and promise a yet unannounced product. Apple publicly acknowledged Shake was EOL when the price dropped to $499 but made it quite clear that there would be something new to replace it at some future point (a couple of years away?). Now some folks buy the reduced price Shake to get work done today while they anticipate whatever will come.
Simply put, Apple's solution may well be in its past actions. They made a big marketing mistake by not handling iMovie 08 as a new product and iMovie 06 as an EOL with a promise to move those users to something else at some point.
Or maybe - buy iLife 08 and send in your iLife 06 disk for a free copy of FCE. This could get some of the iMovie 06 users to buy 08 and then trade in 06 disk for FCE. Or, if they don't want to buy iLife 08, they can send in a photocopy of iLife 06 disc surface plus $79 for FCE.
I think the venting seen here is simply because people WANTED an update to iMovie 06 and didn't get it. I don't think MacWorld, the reviewer or the product called iMovie 08 should be attacked for that. I DO THINK MacWorld should address the marketing blunder (the unfortunate name of the new product) and that Apple didn't use marketing solutions similar to the past and what MacWorld might suggest as a solution. Sure it would be very much a fact based editorial but that might give the readers a sense that MacWorld is aware of this and may well get some of the marketing folks at Apple to think of something to assuage iMovie 06 users.