[masque]

Anyone who's been using an iPhone will understand what I'm about to say...the iPod Touch doesn't make sense to me.
An iPhone can be activated to turn on all its functions except the phone. So, for an additional $100 you get an iPod Touch that does a LOT more. Camera, email, etc come standard. Options include ssh, sftp, plus games, voice recording, IMing (using Safari)...you name it, an app is out there for it on the iPhone already. The 8g vs 16g difference disappears because the iPhone can update remotely from your iTunes and stream music/video using Safari. Got an urge to listen or watch something you don't have on your iPhone? You'll have it in a minute.
I think the challenge for Apple may be to make sure the iPhone doesn't cannabalize the iPod Touch.
On another note...is anyone else wondering if Apple is heading for 31 Flavors of iPxxx? As soon as flash prices hit the magic level or HDDs scrunch to the magic size there'll be more iPxxxs to choose from than laundry detergents on a supermarket shelf. ...The joys and perils of economies of scale and product line expansion!

[smax013]

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Anyone who's been using an iPhone will understand what I'm about to say...the iPod Touch doesn't make sense to me.
An iPhone can be activated to turn on all its functions except the phone. So, for an additional $100 you get an iPod Touch that does a LOT more. Camera, email, etc come standard. Options include ssh, sftp, plus games, voice recording, IMing (using Safari)...you name it, an app is out there for it on the iPhone already. The 8g vs 16g difference disappears because the iPhone can update remotely from your iTunes and stream music/video using Safari. Got an urge to listen or watch something you don't have on your iPhone? You'll have it in a minute.
I think the challenge for Apple may be to make sure the iPhone doesn't cannabalize the iPod Touch.
On another note...is anyone else wondering if Apple is heading for 31 Flavors of iPxxx? As soon as flash prices hit the magic level or HDDs scrunch to the magic size there'll be more iPxxxs to choose from than laundry detergents on a supermarket shelf. ...The joys and perils of economies of scale and product line expansion!

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The iPod Touch makes perfect sense to me...but then I DON'T want to use my phone as an MP3 player (let alone video) on a regular basis until battery life gets MUCH better (or Apple stops the crap of using hardwired, non-user swappable batteries). I kind of like the idea of my phone have enough juice to actually take or make a call on it. Using it for watching videos or listening to music could make that dicey at times.
So, for someone who DOES NOT want a phone in their iPod but wants to watch video on an iPod, the iPod Touch is in the right spot. The bigger screen makes it much better for video than the iPod video/classic. But, this is also why I think the lack of a more storage space (i.e. hard drive based) is kind of a problem. The iPod Touch is much more of a natural video player, but then it lack decent storage for large amounts of video. I would kind of argue that this is a case of Apple taking form over function. In their zeal to make everything thin and small, they might have hurt the iPod's potential market penetration by no making it a little bigger to accomidate a hard drive and maybe a bigger battery to power the hard drive for decent periods of time. I know that the 16 gb storage limit is what would make me hesitate if I were in the market for a new iPod, especially one that I could use to watch video.
Point is that it is all a matter of perspective. Since you seem to like and want a phone in your iPod, then it does not make sense to NOT have it. But, not everyone has that same view.

[PITBULL831]

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Anyone who's been using an iPhone will understand what I'm about to say...the iPod Touch doesn't make sense to me.
An iPhone can be activated to turn on all its functions except the phone. So, for an additional $100 you get an iPod Touch that does a LOT more. Camera, email, etc come standard. Options include ssh, sftp, plus games, voice recording, IMing (using Safari)...you name it, an app is out there for it on the iPhone already. The 8g vs 16g difference disappears because the iPhone can update remotely from your iTunes and stream music/video using Safari. Got an urge to listen or watch something you don't have on your iPhone? You'll have it in a minute.
I think the challenge for Apple may be to make sure the iPhone doesn't cannabalize the iPod Touch.
On another note...is anyone else wondering if Apple is heading for 31 Flavors of iPxxx? As soon as flash prices hit the magic level or HDDs scrunch to the magic size there'll be more iPxxxs to choose from than laundry detergents on a supermarket shelf. ...The joys and perils of economies of scale and product line expansion!

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Well i do understand what your saying . But heres how allot of people look at it ...
Apple made two different products that counteract each other ....
iPhone - Build as APPLE answer to the consumers for people that wanted to use iTunes on there phone , you have Videos , Music from your iTunes libray that you can now take with you everywhere . They added in a few features that ALL PHONE have ... Camera's and a way to check your E-Mail on the go ... As well as build in some functions tha you use on your MACs. Calander , Wedgets , Internet and IM's . As well as other cool funtions ..

Then you have ......

iPod Touch - Witch was built for the iPod fans , the people that like there iPods for MUSIC and VIDEOS . What apple did do is add in there nice Touch Screen , and a fedw funtions that a nice to have ... WiFi , WiFi iTunes and other fun stuff .
What apple did forget to do was add in functions that people use on there MACs and PCs to the new iPod Touch .. Small things ...
NOTES: Your going out to the store , and need to pick up a few things , Would have been nice to note them down before going out .
iCal - Putting appointments is fine , All iPods do have this nice feature , but Apple could have made it where you could update your Appointments while on the go ... Your at work and want to write out your what you go to do this week , but it right on the spot , instead of writing it on a peace of paper to add in to you iPod later is not cool ...
Mic - For recording stuff on the go , Why should we go out and buy new products or add ons all the time , Apple should build it as an al in one device .. A small mic for recording stuff would have been nice , Your at school and need to record what your professor is saying , well pull out your iPod Touch and start recording , go back later to rehear what he had to say ..
Camera - Would have been nice to have a Camera on at least the 16GB Version , but i do see why they did , yes its a bigger feature for PHONES , and not an everyday thing you need , but would have been a nice add on from apple to do ..
There is allot of sweet things that both these products are bring to us , and as a campany that really is nt for everyone out there they do a great job with there iPod Lines ... The iPhone line is more of a product for those that are looking for a Phone that would work well with there APPLE COMPUTER ..

[masque]

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smax013:
The iPod Touch makes perfect sense to me...but then I DON'T want to use my phone as an MP3 player (let alone video) on a regular basis until battery life gets MUCH better (or Apple stops the crap of using hardwired, non-user swappable batteries). I kind of like the idea of my phone have enough juice to actually take or make a call on it. Using it for watching videos or listening to music could make that dicey at times.

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I totally agree about the built-in battery! A major kink in Apple's strategy. I can report though that, so far, my battery hasn't died on me, leaving me in a lurch. And, I use miPhone heavily. I'm not going to be happy when replacement time comes though, assuming I'm still using miPhone.
That said, I was trying to make another point. The iPhone can be used WITHOUT activating the phone function. It is then the equivalent of a souped-up iPod Touch, a Touch Plus. You get the better iPod video player, plus a whole lot more. In addition, there's a booming arena of native app development that daily adds functionality to it.

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smax013:
But, this is also why I think the lack of a more storage space (i.e. hard drive based) is kind of a problem. The iPod Touch is much more of a natural video player, but then it lack decent storage for large amounts of video.

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I too wondered about the Touch memory limitations, why so low? Happily, this has been overcome on the iPhone. Using Safari, you can remotely access your iTunes to change music/video on the iPhone, or you can stream. Memory capacity is not much of an issue, unless you're planning to be out of inet (or slow edge) range for a long time.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their mind about purchasing a Touch, I'm just trying to explain why I'm perplexed at Apple's product line strategy. I'm guessing that this period of overlap stems from economies of scale Apple's getting from R&D and manufacturing; an awkward transition phase as Apple moves to the next level.

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PITBULL831:
What apple did forget to do was add in functions that people use on there MACs and PCs to the new iPod Touch ..

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I think we're on the same wave length. That's why I think the $100 upgrade to the iPhone makes sense to SOME potential Touch buyers. But, I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the missing software-related things will become available as "do-it-youself add ons", given what people are saying about the similarity between the iPhone and Touch innards. wink

[smax013]

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That said, I was trying to make another point. The iPhone can be used WITHOUT activating the phone function. It is then the equivalent of a souped-up iPod Touch, a Touch Plus. You get the better iPod video player, plus a whole lot more. In addition, there's a booming arena of native app development that daily adds functionality to it.

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But...why would I want to pay $100 more for an iPhone with the same storage or pay the same amount for 8 gb less storage and NOT use the phone part? Just to get the built-in email client and Google maps and stocks widget and weather widget, etc? All of the various widget functions can be done with webpages, so there is not "benefit" other than a slightly quicker access for the iPhone over a iPod Touch in that area. The only real function advantage it would appear would be the email client on the iPhone...assuming you are using the iPhone WITHOUT activating the phone part. You will be stuck with WiFi...same as on the iPod Touch. Everything else is basically the same. The only thing that I am not sure that we know is if the contacts and calender entries are edittable on the iPod Touch. If they are, then the ONLY advantage an un-activated iPhone has is the email client...oh, and Bluetooth...but since I don't believe Apple made Bluetooth EDR/stereo headphone compatible, I am not sure what it gains you without the phone function activated. And I don't know too many people that will want to either spend an extra $100 to get basically the same thing but with an email client or spend the same amount of money but get 8 gb less storage.
So, my point is that I don't see too many people who DON'T want phone functionality in their iPod being too interested in getting an iPhone but leaving the phone function turned off. And THAT is why the iPod Touch has a market...because there are some people who DON'T want a phone in the iPod.

[PITBULL831]

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PITBULL831:
What apple did forget to do was add in functions that people use on there MACs and PCs to the new iPod Touch ..

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I think we're on the same wave length. That's why I think the $100 upgrade to the iPhone makes sense to SOME potential Touch buyers. But, I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of the missing software-related things will become available as "do-it-youself add ons", given what people are saying about the similarity between the iPhone and Touch innards. wink

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Yeah I have a feeling that Apple doesn't want the iPod Touch , and the iPhone to compete with each other hands down ... Yet there are a few APP's that apple could make as Downloads for your iPod Touch ... Small things to keep the Touch and the Phone different from each other ... As well as making sure that both have the same contents that could be downloaded and added if needed ...
Yes apple could do UpDates on both and give both the same app's each time . But what about make App's that you as the consumer could choose to use on your Touch and iPhone ...
EXAMPLE ...
Both iPhone and iPod Touch have WiFi right .. What about making things like ,
SKYPE , YAHOO and SMS Text clint setup for both , but have it where you could DOWNLOAD the clint you use the most ... Myself i use Skpyes free service , It would be nice if i could text someone while i was on the go , as well as make it where i could hook up a Headset and chat with them over the internet for free as well . Im sure there are people out there that use Yahoo for the same thing , would be ncie to DOWNLOAD the Clinet that you use as you PC or MAC chatting clinet and take it with you everywhere ....
Google maps would have also been nice for the iPod Touch , but sense its not on there Apple could provide it for DOWNLOAD for those that do want to use it ...
Email clients i'm not one to say we really need this , your have internet on the Touch , so you could check your email on the go ....
Widgets would have been ncie as well , seeing that Apple does have a great line of Widgets out there . It would have been nice to make the Widgets setup with your Touch as well ... It wouldnt have taking away from the iPhone seeing that not everyone uses Widgets all the time .
Note should be in one of apples updates , that or make it downloadable for those that do have a need for keep notes on there iPod Touch ... Your out and need to add a note , do so .. This again wouldn't have taking fom the iPhone at all , it would have boost up the iPod Touch ...
As a consumer that is wanting to buy this product , and will most likely buy this product , i want as much support for this product as apple does for all there products ... Macbooks and Macbook Pros as well as there desk top line dont come with every little thing your going to need , but they do give you options to go out and buy those programs you need , as well as let other companies like SKYPE , YAHOO and others to build programs to work on there computers .
Same should go with the iPod Touch ... Some product like SKYPE or YAHOO or other clinets likt that should be made for the iPod Touch ....
Apple also has a great way of getting this apps to you , its called iTunes ... Apple knows it does well and if a campany wants to add there APP to the iPhone or iPod Touch they should be able to with out having to make it just a web app.
They could summit it to apple a let apple do there part of making it useable on the iPhone and iPod Touch ...

[masque]

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PITBULL831
Yeah I have a feeling that Apple doesn't want the iPod Touch , and the iPhone to compete with each other hands down ... Yet there are a few APP's that apple could make as Downloads for your iPod Touch ...
But what about make App's that you as the consumer could choose to use on your Touch and iPhone ...
EXAMPLE ...
Both iPhone and iPod Touch have WiFi right .. What about making things like ,
SKYPE , YAHOO and SMS Text clint setup for both , but have it where you could DOWNLOAD the clint you use the most

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Good news: Your wishlist clients/apps are available for iPhone, either standard or from 3rd party developers. Wishful thinking or quick reality?: Since the iPhone and Touch are so similar, the "development community" will probably have versions for the Touch quickly.

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smax013
But...why would I want to pay $100 more for an iPhone with the same storage or pay the same amount for 8 gb less storage and NOT use the phone part? Just to get the built-in email client and Google maps and stocks widget and weather widget, etc? ... The only real function advantage it would appear would be the email client on the iPhone...assuming you are using the iPhone WITHOUT activating the phone part. You will be stuck with WiFi...same as on the iPod Touch. Everything else is basically the same.

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Have you used an iPhone? Have you followed what "3rd party developers" have achieved with the iPhone?
I wouldn't agree that everything else is basically the same. If you check the specs, the iPhone has other fundamental features, like the camera, missing from the Touch. If you search for iPhone 3rd party apps, you'll find long lists that add valuable functionality. I think I already explained how storage space is becoming somewhat of a non-issue.
I am not trying to debate whether a Touch or iPhone is better for you. My original post was my observation on Apple's segmentation strategy for the iProduct lines. Apple probably made their decision to bring out the Touch during the iPhone R&D and iProduct Marketing planning phases, and may have underestimated how quickly the iPhone would be "opened" and improved by 3rd party apps, adding powerful bang for the buck for that little $100 price difference. Were it not possible to activate the iPhone without the phone, were valuable 3rd party apps not available, the Touch would make more sense to me. What surprises me is that Apple didn't foresee this. In less than a week after launch, the iPhone was turned into the Touch, and value-added 3rd party apps came pouring out of the development community in the first weeks. At that point, Apple was probably locked into Touch manufacturing and couldn't turn back. Now, it will be interesting to see how Apple evolves and differentiates the Touch and iPhone product lines, especially if the development community brings out Touch versions of their 3rd party iPhone apps, and ports standard iPhone apps to the Touch (given their similar platforms).

[PITBULL831]

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PITBULL831
Yeah I have a feeling that Apple doesn't want the iPod Touch , and the iPhone to compete with each other hands down ... Yet there are a few APP's that apple could make as Downloads for your iPod Touch ...
But what about make App's that you as the consumer could choose to use on your Touch and iPhone ...
EXAMPLE ...
Both iPhone and iPod Touch have WiFi right .. What about making things like ,
SKYPE , YAHOO and SMS Text clint setup for both , but have it where you could DOWNLOAD the clint you use the most

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Good news: Your wishlist clients/apps are available for iPhone, either standard or from 3rd party developers. Wishful thinking or quick reality?: Since the iPhone and Touch are so similar, the "development community" will probably have versions for the Touch quickly.

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Really , Could you please show me or supply a link to where i cold DOWNLOAD this Client and then add it to my iPhone ... Really Please , With out useing Safari on your iPhone . There is no DOWNLOADS that you can add to your iPhone ...
Cause at this time i have gone to SKYPE and APPLEs websites and seen nothing that you can DOWNLOAD and add to your iPhone . Now i have found this for iPhone users , Witch does work fine , but its a web app , nothing more ....

http://s4iphone.com/index_iphone.jsp
So what are you talking about ????

[smax013]

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Have you used an iPhone? Have you followed what "3rd party developers" have achieved with the iPhone?
I wouldn't agree that everything else is basically the same. If you check the specs, the iPhone has other fundamental features, like the camera, missing from the Touch. If you search for iPhone 3rd party apps, you'll find long lists that add valuable functionality. I think I already explained how storage space is becoming somewhat of a non-issue.
I am not trying to debate whether a Touch or iPhone is better for you. My original post was my observation on Apple's segmentation strategy for the iProduct lines. Apple probably made their decision to bring out the Touch during the iPhone R&D and iProduct Marketing planning phases, and may have underestimated how quickly the iPhone would be "opened" and improved by 3rd party apps, adding powerful bang for the buck for that little $100 price difference. Were it not possible to activate the iPhone without the phone, were valuable 3rd party apps not available, the Touch would make more sense to me. What surprises me is that Apple didn't foresee this. In less than a week after launch, the iPhone was turned into the Touch, and value-added 3rd party apps came pouring out of the development community in the first weeks. At that point, Apple was probably locked into Touch manufacturing and couldn't turn back. Now, it will be interesting to see how Apple evolves and differentiates the Touch and iPhone product lines, especially if the development community brings out Touch versions of their 3rd party iPhone apps, and ports standard iPhone apps to the Touch (given their similar platforms).

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OK, I did forget about the camera...but then that is likely due to the fact that I could care less about a camera on my phone...or iPod for that matter. I use the camera on my Treo 755p MUCH less than I use the phone function. Thus, I personally am much more likely to want a phone function in my iPod than a camera function.
As to third party applications, how much do you want to be that there will be third party applications for the Touch? If so, then again there is not that much difference.
My point is that THE real difference between the iPod Touch and the iPhone is the phone function. So, why in the WORLD would I want to pay $100 extra to get an iPhone and then NOT use the phone function? To turn it the other way around...if I don't want a phone in my iPod, then why would ANYONE consider paying an extra $100 to get nominally the same functionality only? The point is that the iPod Touch and the iPhone server two different target markets. One serves a market that does want a phone in their iPod (or an iPod in their phone) that also happens to be a better video iPod then the older video iPod and the other serves a market that does NOT want a phone in their iPod. You position makes much more sense when the iPod Touch did not exist...it was a viable option to get an iPhone and not activate the phone part assuming you wanted the better video option on an "iPod". But, there was not another product out there that would do what they wanted for less money...in other words, they did not have another option to "striped" out a function/feature that they did not want and did not want to pay for. Now, there is that option. And unless someone wants the phone function (whether for voice calls or Internet access when NOT near a WiFi hotspot) now or potentially in the future, it make very little sense to get an iPhone.
And storage DOES still matter. The whole streaming content from a home source is nice...but if you are not in range of a WiFi hotspot with either your iPod Touch or you iPhone (with the phone part de-activated...since we are debating that option), then you are outta luck on the whole streaming bit and left with only what you have in memory of the device.
In the end, if I don't want to activate the phone part of an iPhone, then it is completely senseless to me to get an iPhone for #100 more (or the same price but less memory) when I can get the iPod Touch and basically get the same functionality. Unless I want the additional functionality (phone, camera, Bluetooth) that an iPhone provides, it seems stupid to pay more for something that nominally does the same thing as the cheaper device. Are you going to go buy a Ferrari and then cripple the engine so that it producing similar horsepower to a Pontiac G6? If you are only going to get Pontiac G6 performance out of your Ferrari, then why would you spend all the money to get the Ferrari? (OK, so it is an unrealistic and extreme example, but it is meant to illustrate the point) I sure would not...even if the Ferrari looks nicer than a Pontiac.

[smax013]

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[Both iPhone and iPod Touch have WiFi right .. What about making things like ,
SKYPE , YAHOO and SMS Text clint setup for both , but have it where you could DOWNLOAD the clint you use the most ... Myself i use Skpyes free service , It would be nice if i could text someone while i was on the go , as well as make it where i could hook up a Headset and chat with them over the internet for free as well . Im sure there are people out there that use Yahoo for the same thing , would be ncie to DOWNLOAD the Clinet that you use as you PC or MAC chatting clinet and take it with you everywhere ....
Google maps would have also been nice for the iPod Touch , but sense its not on there Apple could provide it for DOWNLOAD for those that do want to use it ...
Email clients i'm not one to say we really need this , your have internet on the Touch , so you could check your email on the go ....
Widgets would have been ncie as well , seeing that Apple does have a great line of Widgets out there . It would have been nice to make the Widgets setup with your Touch as well ... It wouldnt have taking away from the iPhone seeing that not everyone uses Widgets all the time .
Note should be in one of apples updates , that or make it downloadable for those that do have a need for keep notes on there iPod Touch ... Your out and need to add a note , do so .. This again wouldn't have taking fom the iPhone at all , it would have boost up the iPod Touch ...
As a consumer that is wanting to buy this product , and will most likely buy this product , i want as much support for this product as apple does for all there products ... Macbooks and Macbook Pros as well as there desk top line dont come with every little thing your going to need , but they do give you options to go out and buy those programs you need , as well as let other companies like SKYPE , YAHOO and others to build programs to work on there computers .
Same should go with the iPod Touch ... Some product like SKYPE or YAHOO or other clinets likt that should be made for the iPod Touch ....
Apple also has a great way of getting this apps to you , its called iTunes ... Apple knows it does well and if a campany wants to add there APP to the iPhone or iPod Touch they should be able to with out having to make it just a web app.
They could summit it to apple a let apple do there part of making it useable on the iPhone and iPod Touch ...

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I would not hold my breath on an officially sanctioned Skype client for the iPhone...I doubt Apple's partner, AT&T, would be too happy with that development. And there might even be something in Apple's contract with AT&T that would prevent it. Now, an officially sanctioned Skype client for the iPod Touch might be more realistic...if or when Apple officially allows third party applications.
Now, a "cracked" third party application option for Skype on either one is a possibility assuming that someone (either Skype or someone else) wants to create it.
As to Google Maps widget...you should be able to goto to Google Maps on the Safari browser. Unless it uses Flash or something that the iPhone and/or iPod Touch's browser does not support, it should work. So, the Google Maps widget thing is NOT needed...it is a luxury convienice that makes it just a little easier than having to go to the browser.

[masque]

PITBULL831: sent you a pm

[smax013]

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Remember when we all thought 20GB was a lot?

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But...that was also before an iPod could do video. A typical movie from the iTunes store is something like 1 to 1.5 gb if I recall correctly. Each TV episode is like 500 mb or so. If you are taking a long trip, that could mean not enough video diversions on your iPod...an iPod that is MUCH more aimed at video than previous iPods. I am not saying that it is not OK overall...just pointing out that it is kind of stupid to have less memory on the one iPod that is MUCH more aimed at video considering how much space videos take up relative to music when compared to an iPod with a smaller screen that is less ideal for watching video.

[sandbag1]

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A typical movie from the iTunes store is something like 1 to 1.5 gb if I recall correctly.

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I have the entire Cars movie on my iPod converted from DVD using DVD2Pod, 611mb.

[smax013]

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True, but consider what it would take to make a hard drive-based iPod Touch. It would need to be a lot thicker in order to put in the hard drive and a bigger battery to power it. There would have had to have been bigger design changes and probably fewer part-sharing opportunities with the iPhone. It certainly wouldn't be as stylish. Considering that style is a big selling point for Apple, it makes perfect sense to me to release the iPod Touch as is.

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All very true and thing that I understand and agree with...except to some degree the part-sharing/design changes from the iPhone. If you look at the pictures of the iPod Touch and iPhone on the Apple site, there are NOT the same size...unless the pictures are of different scale. Point is that the case does not appear to be the same. I don't believe the screen is the same size either. So, I am not sure how much part-sharing there is right now.
Regardless, you are correct that it would likely need to be thicker to accomidate the hard drive and a bigger battery...but I will note that those are points that I conceded earlier in the thread. And I noted that I am much more of a function over form person. I could really care less if using a hard drive with a bigger battery required making the iPod Touch go from 8mm to 16 mm thick. My 3rd generation 30 gb iPod is 18.5 mm thick and it has never bothered me. The iPod Touch is nominally about the same size as my 3rd generation iPod other than the thickness. So, even if you doubled the thickness of the iPod Touch, I would have been A OK with it. Thinner is nice, but not at the cost of function. An iPod Touch that is 16 mm would not make it unuseable by any stretch...maybe just not as sexy.