[Chris Breen]

If you two would like to get a private room to discuss the finer points of Herr Nietzsche's work I'm sure no one would object.
In the meantime, topic rather than personalities please.

[whitedog]

In the meantime, topic rather than personalities please.
Sorry, Chris. I just got tired of wading through all the hostile noise and couldn't help speculating about where it all comes from. I imagine you've mulled over the subject yourself from time to time. I'd suggest it as a topic for an article but it would probably be considered outside the scope of the Macworld Blogs - even though they catch a fair amount of that kind of flack every day.

[Chris Breen]

Like I said early on in the article (remember way back when an article was the subject of this thread?) Apple is an emotional subject -- particularly on a website like this -- and people's passions tend to get fired up (I'm hardly immune). To that peaked passion add a dose of anonymity and it's not surprising when words are exchanged that you wouldn't dare utter in a face-to-face conversation.
As personal as it may seem sometimes, it isn't.

[edmetric]

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As personal as it may seem sometimes, it isn't.

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Really? All we need to post then is rapier wit and French lessons? Really?
I thought you had a good article which brought out lengthy commentary from readers. The article has uncovered many more issues than you had intended I suspect. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Hugolino]

Fear not! Beyond the big quote here is an actual post!

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Some here live in the Kingdom of the Mountaintop. They are the Apple-can-do-no-wrong group. They are excited by the lightning flashes of inspiration, the swirling mists of mystery. They strive for the perfect experience, ascetics of aesthetics.
... the Middle Kingdom. This is the place where an ancient tribe called the Beatles live and are discussed. People here are known to have made the trip to the top at least once in a lifetime but it's difficult to get to the Kingdom of the Mountaintop from the Middle Kingdom these days. Signs are now being posted to stay away from going up there.
There are many others, like me, at the bottom of the mountain. New users. No loyalty. Teeming masses who gaze up into the clouds at the top yet remain untrusted practitioners at the bottom. We ripped the computer name from Apple you know. We handle the iPod artifacts but we value the temporary, the here and now.
There are many paths encircling the mountain here at the bottom. Steve Jobs can be seen on them often.

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I just had to re-post the above because that is just an awesomely succinct summary of matters, even if highly disputable opinion. Thanks for sharing that image Jack. I guess I would be at the bottom of the mountain, although I had reached the summit while using school computers as a youth and teenager. I didn't buy my first and only Apple computer until four years ago.
In my case it was a year of suffering with a Linux-only desktop computer that prompted the purchase. I loved Open Source and still do. But, as of four years ago, it was no serious alternative as a sole home or professional computer OS, even with the generous assistance of a computer technician relative and my own college experience using UNIX and VAX systems... not to mention hours spent reading and posting on Linux message boards. I would prefer not to return to Linux until (or if) that platform grows up.
As for Windows, I've used everything from DOS to Windows XP, and it says much when I say I prefer Linux -- not because Linux is that good but because Windows is not that great. However at this point I still wouldn't want to use Linux as a sole operating system if my sole consideration were practical, which it isn't.
As for the original article, I'm honestly not sure I agree with the conclusion. Time will tell. As for the details supporting that opinion, I disagree with some and lightly agree with others. I don't wish to beat the dead horse by elaborating my opinion. However, the overall tone of the article surprised me and I hope it isn't a new trend for opinion pieces at Macworld. It reminded me of listening to a guitar that is just slightly off-key, although I can't say why.
As for the issue of business ethics, I have my own set of concerns and the ones mentioned are not worries of mine at this time.
If someone can tell me of any computer company whose computers (Linux-compatible at least) are manufactured entirely in the United States then I would switch from the MacOS in a heartbeat, even if it cost twice or thrice as much as the equivalent Apple computer. I don't say this as exaggeration or because I am rich. Those are just my priorities. Free trade is turning the U.S. into a third world country and people are too concerned about their own personal bottom line to do anything about it.
If anyone can tell me of a computer company (Linux-compatible at least) whose computers -- including components -- are not manufactured in China, a nation whose grave human rights and environmental abuses are many, I would also seriously consider switching from the MacOS/Apple.
Anyone?

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If someone can tell me of any computer company whose computers (Linux-compatible at least) are manufactured entirely in the United States then I would switch from the MacOS in a heartbeat, even if it cost twice or thrice as much as the equivalent Apple computer....Anyone?

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Would you like a Commodore 64 revival?
Reality, we are talking reality here aren't we, reality is that what you ask does not exist in the world today. It's easy to postulate favor with that which does not exist. Even the extreme Applemashers could not make cider from such a proposal.
However, there are international channels for supporting human rights in China, Jack. Macworld/MacWorld is not one of them. /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[whitedog]

In the course of this discussion a number of people suggested that we know Apple has done nothing wrong because no lawsuits have been filed related to the issues originally highlighted in Chris's article. That was then; this is now. Providing some tasty fodder for further discussion, several suits are indeed taking shape: two "class action" filings, one claiming that Apple intentionally broke the phones of those who unlocked their iPhones to work on services outside AT&T; the other that locking the iPhone in the first place is illegal. There is one more asserting that the iPhone price cut was somehow "discriminatory." This latter is probably the flimsiest so far.
I don't subscribe to the premise that lawsuits prove Apple's flaws. Such lawsuits are a constant these days; any company in the news and doing well is subject to a constant barrage of legal challenges. Some of these have merit; most are thinly disguised extortion attempts. The kind of mistakes Chris pointed out do not generally involve legal issues, nor was it his intent, as far as I can tell, to claim that they do.
The issues Chris raised have to do with the attitude, insights (or lack thereof) and decisions of Apple management and what these portend for the future of the company and its customers. Not surprisingly, some people saw their sacred cow being gored and took vehement exception. Some took the opportunity to vent their personal opprobrium of Apple. Others more rationally limited their support or disagreement to how they value each item of criticism.
My own conclusion is that not everything we question is necessarily a mistake on Apple's part, nor is all the criticism necessarily misplaced. After all, even the best leaders make mistakes occasionally. The real issue is how they deal with such occurrences. Can they sort out the legitimate criticism from the merely misinformed? And can they set their egos aside in order to take corrective action when necessary? Without some personal humility, every leader will eventually become the victim of their own success.

[Hugolino]

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Reality, we are talking reality here aren't we, reality is that what you ask does not exist in the world today. It's easy to postulate favor with that which does not exist. Even the extreme Applemashers could not make cider from such a proposal.

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While my questions were not insincere, I made them in large part to indicate that questions of ethics can run deeper than the scratch on the surface posed by the original article. And the point I was trying to make was the one you made... people need to come back down to reality.
Keep it in perspective. When it comes to drinking in life, we have a tendency to strain out the gnats and swallow the elephants.