[Peter Cohen]

Quote:

---

"The first thing you'll want to do is throw away that silly one button mouse and get a 3 button mouse".

---

And he was right.
Ironically, when Apple sets up systems for gaming events, even they don't use pro mice or the Mighty Mouse (which is wholly unsuitable for gaming because it doesn't let you rest your fingers on the left and right buttons simultaneously without having bad things happen). They usually go with Logitech hardware.

[Peter Cohen]

Quote:

---

How many people play DOOM on a blackberry?

---

It's not Doom, it's Doom RPG. It was developed specifically for mobile devices.

[zarmanto]

Quote:

---

No, it was made in June.

---

Huh? Either I'm confused, or you are, Peter... Looking at the article you linked, I see that the technology behind the game was indeed announced at WWDC, but I don't see any reference to the game itself, which (as you reported yourself) was announced at QuakeCon.

[zarmanto]

Quote:

---

Ironically, when Apple sets up systems for gaming events, even they don't use pro mice or the Mighty Mouse (which is wholly unsuitable for gaming because it doesn't let you rest your fingers on the left and right buttons simultaneously without having bad things happen). They usually go with Logitech hardware.

---

Interesting... I've been using a cheap Logitech wheel mouse instead of my Bluetooth Mighty Mouse for much the same reason. So is this why my Mighty Mouse frequently thinks that I've left clicked when I try to right click? (In Windows or MacOS, and in any application... it's quite frustrating.)

[robco]

IIRC, in one of the demo videos for Android, Quake is being played on a mobile with 3D acceleration. Not bad. I hope Carmack concentrates his efforts on this platform and ignores the iPhone completely. It's a gimped device, still lacking basic functionality available on almost every other phone platform. Apple did it all wrong. The SDK should have been available shortly after the initial announcement so software would be ready by the time the iPhone shipped. Apple's desire for secrecy at all costs is maddening. The exclusivity with AT&T is even worse.
Apple's lack of interest in improving the gaming situation on the Mac is what prompted me to just build a Windows PC and pick up a 360. Now that Leopard is cracked, I don't need to even think about buying a Mac from Apple for the desktop. I'm thinking hard about whether I'll get another Mac. I do like the OS, but the hardware is kinda lacking. Apple makes some pretty dumb moves (like equating size with quality/performance).

[Spark]

Quote:

---

even the most recent iMacs have enough juice to run modern games properly, and by properly I mean at very least 1280x1024 (but games look their best at 1600x1200 and up) with most of the eye candy turned on ... at more than 10 frames per second.

---

I have a new iMac 2.8GHz with ATI (Rage Pro?) card (256MB) and it runs Half-Life beautifully at 1900px rez with full eye-candy turned on. Even my son, who is in the game development industry, loves to play on the iMac. That said, I'm not a big gamer either, and don't have the broadest experience with the most system-taxing games. I am impressed with the iMac's abilities none the less.

[leicaman]

John Carmack is one of the few developers who's been a good supporter of Apple. His focus is big-time on games on portable devices. So I can see how it might be more important to him now than it might have been five years ago.
What I can really appreciate about him is that he's got an ego big enough to get into a heated exchance with Steve Jobs and not be intimidated. Not many people seem to be willing to tell Jobs where to stick it. At least not people who are respected in the industry.

[pumasalad]

why do the mac haters always talk about the mac like it's a toy but when they want to play games they buy a PC? personally, I am kind of proud that my mac is not a gaming machine. I am glad my iPhone is not as well. Gaming on a platform makes it seem so much more, well, cheap and toy-like.

[Arcadia]

Quote:

---

personally, I am kind of proud that my mac is not a gaming machine. I am glad my iPhone is not as well. Gaming on a platform makes it seem so much more, well, cheap and toy-like.

---

Right on. Wait, what?

[palane]

Quote:

---

why do the mac haters always talk about the mac like it's a toy but when they want to play games they buy a PC? personally, I am kind of proud that my mac is not a gaming machine. I am glad my iPhone is not as well. Gaming on a platform makes it seem so much more, well, cheap and toy-like.

---

You're looking for consistency? Come 'on! :-)
If you look at some of the serious gaming rigs, they are anything but cheap and toy-like. I think we've put that baby to bed for the Mac and should do the same for gaming. As for me, I'm happy having a Mac and eventually getting a game rig (probably a Wii) [No time for games right now, but I'm sure my toddlers will get into these eventually.]
BB

[bigpics]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

While your conclusion may (or may not) be correct, I feel that you might well be speculating based upon a faulty premise...

---

Well, my intent was more to take a playful jab at a previous poster (suggesting Carmack had little to no influence). You're correct that I drew a straight line between "heated words" and an SDK a few months later. I've no idea if the announced SDK will be adequate for the game developers' needs.
I have high hopes, though. My wife's Palm (then fiance) is getting a bit long in the tooth and I'm coveting her G1 Nano. I don't think it would take a lot for the Touch to be a terrific tool.
BB

---

Your wife was engaged to a Palm? The times they ARE a-changin!! /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Seriously, I don't play computer games, never have, never will; or rather you might better say that Photoshop and other creative apps are my favorite "games" of all time, because I'm making the rules not running mazes in someone else's pre-defined set of objectives and outcomes, and I "win" when I end up with something that pleases me and hopefully others. But I am invested (emotionally, in hardware and software, and literally) in Apple's success and recognize how huge an industry gaming is, so would like their platforms to be purchased by a good portion of the sunken-eyed, sun-deprived, asocial, gaming geeks out there to increase my personal platform's market share.
And what I'd like to see in this thread is some input by someone knowledgeable about what SDK's and what "developer support" for them really are and amount to, e.g., why a Mactel with resources like Core Animation and Core this-and-that, which support video editing and other demanding apps, would be harder to develop for from a coding perspective. Or is it not the Leopard's SDK problem (and soon the iPhone's SDK's problem) or Apple's lack of whatever developer support is, and purely their minimalist bent in designing hardware so that 90% of the machines they sell aren't suitable for the type of games people play on PC's (and smart phones)?
More specifically in terms of the article, are there any technological or technical support reasons to expect that the forthcoming iPhone SDK won't won't be as friendly to game developers as to any other developers, and that it's up to them to exploit whatever the hardware is capable of?
Then we might know what we're arguing about here.

[Ilgaz]

If Apple customers critise a programming legend such as Carmack who supported Macintosh in its darkest days, there is no hope for Mac platform progress.
Keep dual booting to Windows or running Windows applications masking as .app.
Have a nice day, you deserve all you get.

[Ilgaz]

[indent]Quote:

---

[indent]Quote:

---

[indent]Quote:

---

While your conclusion may (or may not) be correct, I feel that you might well be speculating based upon a faulty premise...

---

[/indent]
Well, my intent was more to take a playful jab at a previous poster (suggesting Carmack had little to no influence). You're correct that I drew a straight line between "heated words" and an SDK a few months later. I've no idea if the announced SDK will be adequate for the game developers' needs.
I have high hopes, though. My wife's Palm (then fiance) is getting a bit long in the tooth and I'm coveting her G1 Nano. I don't think it would take a lot for the Touch to be a terrific tool.
BB

---

[/indent]Your wife was engaged to a Palm? The times they ARE a-changin!!
Seriously, I don't play computer games, never have, never will; or rather you might better say that Photoshop and other creative apps are my favorite "games" of all time, because I'm making the rules not running mazes in someone else's pre-defined set of objectives and outcomes, and I "win" when I end up with something that pleases me and hopefully others. But I am invested (emotionally, in hardware and software, and literally) in Apple's success and recognize how huge an industry gaming is, so would like their platforms to be purchased by a good portion of the sunken-eyed, sun-deprived, asocial, gaming geeks out there to increase my personal platform's market share.
And what I'd like to see in this thread is some input by someone knowledgeable about what SDK's and what "developer support" for them really are and amount to, e.g., why a Mactel with resources like Core Animation and Core this-and-that, which support video editing and other demanding apps, would be harder to develop for from a coding perspective. Or is it not the Leopard's SDK problem (and soon the iPhone's SDK's problem) or Apple's lack of whatever developer support is, and purely their minimalist bent in designing hardware so that 90% of the machines they sell aren't suitable for the type of games people play on PC's (and smart phones)?
More specifically in terms of the article, are there any technological or technical support reasons to expect that the forthcoming iPhone SDK won't won't be as friendly to game developers as to any other developers, and that it's up to them to exploit whatever the hardware is capable of?
Then we might know what we're arguing about here.

---

[/indent]
No commercial game developer would openly critise Apple about the issues on Mac gaming. Carmack can do, he is John Carmack.
I know a game which I won't give name is coded very strictly via OpenAL sound system and after Leopard, its valid OpenAL calls gets misinterpreted. Game is a subscription type game, if it creates couple of problems, people unsubscribe and they lose money.
see how the community treats to a person like Carmack, would you openly critise Apple about such issues? I personally wouldn't. A single OS X update which breaks my game would mean end of my company.
I think iPhone's problem would be: There is no gaming focus. Not at all. That screen, that CPU, that entire OpenGL subsystem.
Some companies/communities learn from Carmack and his open critism about mobile Java which is LOT MORE harsh than this one leaded a lot better J2ME and better gaming support from Sun.
Mobile gaming industry is sized at billions of dollars. Casual/Mobile gaming brought Real Networks back from almost dead.

[feefer]

Another case of people thinking Apple exists as some kind of magic fairy, interested in producing devices that fulfill THEIR wishes, alone.
Newsflash: Apple has a strong track history of NOT supporting gamers, and it seems a bit silly to expect any changes at this point. If it's not clear by now, the oversight is NOT accidental; Apple does NOT want to be seen as a gaming device builder.
If it's not clear, the iPhone is NOT a gaming device (and the idea of spending $400 for a phone to play games on blows my mind). Didn't Jobs make this point clear within the first minute of his keynote introduction of the iPhone, saying it would be a phone, an iPod, and an internet browser? Isn't that trifecta enough, and isn't it obvious he didn't throw in the term, 'mobile gaming platform'?
I can hear the protests: "Why not? The iPhone is simply a 400Mhz ARM processor, so there's no reason that it couldn't be programmed to play games?!"
Well, your refrigerator's or car's onboard microprocessor probably could be hacked to play games, too, but how exactly would that be a good idea? At some point, we're going to have to decide to let cars be cars, and phones be phones!
It reminds me of when MIDI first came out in the 1980's, and we had bass and guitar players triggering drum sounds or playing piano chords, and keyboardists were playing guitar sounds, etc: it got very confusing to figure out who was playing what. Once musicians got over the novelty of the idea, many resorted back to their traditional roles and performed THEIR parts.

As far as appealing to gamers, Apple and it's devices can not be all things to all people: I doubt Apple wants to corner EVERY potential device market (and I'm really upset Apple hasn't released a universal remote control!!). Ever notice how all these other MP3 players will throw in everything, including the kitchen sink? Jobs understands that what's NOT included in the feature-set of a device is just as important as what IS included. This is classic "more-is-less" thinking, and I'd have to say I agree with the concept.
Besides, Apple is just as famous for NOT building devices to appeal to the (for lack of a better term) 'common man'. While the success of the iPod and iPhone seems to have modified that stance somewhat, I think it's clear Apple's NEVER intended to appeal to the gaming market, and once again, that's probably a smart decision. Do you want magazines like Macworld overrun with all those gaming ads, with half-naked Amazon women in drawings, all designed to appeal to zit-faced teenagers? Thanks, but no thanks: I can read PC World if I wanted that. Gaming weakens the Apple brand (and besides, who wants to compete with Nintendo, Coleco, etc?).
Maybe in the future, Apple will decide to release a gaming device. But remember: the decision to release ANY item, including the iPhone or iPod Touch, is APPLE'S.