[DisabledTrucker]

You know I hear everyone blaming Apple for the lack of games on the Mac, yet noone's complaining that most of the games are still made using the DirectX API which never was a decent platform for games. If the stupid game programmers would just create their games for the OpenGL platform instead, then their games would already be compatible with Macs and perform wonderfully on it. The problem lies in the fact the gaming companies are too busy hiring these script kiddies to create the games that couldn't do any real programming if their life depended on it. That's why they are using DirectX and Visual Basic to create their games. Not only would games look better, play faster, and overall have a better gameplay if they were written for the OpenGL platform, they'd also be cross platform compatible out of the box. Apple has provided some neat tools to create games on it's platform that would be specific to it, only that the studios are still refusing to make any use of them. Until you see a serious game written for a Mac, your not going to see Apple get serious about making it's hardware more geared for games. I mean get real, what serious games do we really have that are for Mac and not some crossover garbage written for the PC that needs a layer between it and the Mac OS to run? Zero, Zilch, None, Squat, etc. You're not going to see any either because the companies that can afford to create a decent game are too busy playing footsies with Microsoft, if they were to switch partners for a change and get in bed with Apple instead, you'd see Microsoft go the way of the Dodo really quick as a lot of people migrate in swarms of flocks to Apple.
I mean just look at Apples board of directors, most of the people on it are Me 3 people, or wanna be's. Exactly what Steve Jobs and Apple is happy with being, a wanna be me 3 company! If Steve was really wanting to make Apple a company to reckon with, then he'd get in bed with at least one major game company and create at least one game, gaming desktop, and gaming laptop that could make any gamer proud. This would spark interest in the Mac as a serious gaming platform. I guess after Microsoft decided to choose it's PowerPC processor for the XBOX-360, Apple decided to just give up on gaming altogether since it really didn't have a platform left to build one one themselves. They are more interested in looking at the home business crowd, yet they're main targeted audience isn't interested in something they can't also have fun with on their off time. So Apple decided to give them the ability to do Audio/Photo/Videos instead, then they keep missing the "g-spot" on that. But, as I said above, you really can't fully blame Apple either, if someone like Alex St. John would create a better way to create games for the Mac as he did with DirectX for Microsoft, then Apple would have no choice but to stand up and take notice that their customers also want GAMES! Apple just doesn't have the resources that Microsoft has to dedicate a group of people to only creating something for gamers. They did however go out of their way to assure that every copy of Mac OS has X-Code installed in it so that someone else can take up the slack. Once there's an actual "blockbuster" game that stars on the Mac, Apple and Steve will have to wake up and take notice, until then forget about it and be happy you get to play 3D Chess.

[wardoggie]

DisabledTrucker said:

You know I hear everyone blaming Apple for the lack of games on the Mac, yet noone's complaining that most of the games are still made using the DirectX API which never was a decent platform for games. If the stupid game programmers would just create their games for the OpenGL platform instead, then their games would already be compatible with Macs and perform wonderfully on it. The problem lies in the fact the gaming companies are too busy hiring these script kiddies to create the games that couldn't do any real programming if their life depended on it. That's why they are using DirectX and Visual Basic to create their games. Not only would games look better, play faster, and overall have a better gameplay if they were written for the OpenGL platform, they'd also be cross platform compatible out of the box. Apple has provided some neat tools to create games on it's platform that would be specific to it, only that the studios are still refusing to make any use of them.

PC game companies are pretty successful with their DirectX-based approach. You're suggesting that they abandon this proven approach--and absorb the cost of changing their processes--so they can court a smaller (albeit growing) market segment? I honestly can't say that I blame them for "doing business as usual."

DisabledTrucker said:

Until you see a serious game written for a Mac, your not going to see Apple get serious about making it's hardware more geared for games.

Blizzard has a pretty good track record of releasing titles on PC and mac platforms simultaneously. And last year, a Macworld article on John Carmack of id Software said:

"Carmack has been a big booster of OpenGL as well, so it?s understandable that he?d want to see Apple do the right thing."

http://www.macworld....06/idtech5.html

So maybe we'll get to see the "OpenGL effect" in action soon.

DisabledTrucker said:

If Steve was really wanting to make Apple a company to reckon with, then he'd get in bed with at least one major game company and create at least one game, gaming desktop, and gaming laptop that could make any gamer proud.

http://www.macworld....leearnings.html

I'd say Apple is doing a pretty good job without chasing the gaming market. As a mac user, it pains me to have to switch to another platform to play the latest games. But, at the end of the day, Apple gets my computer money and game publishers get my game money. The fact that I don't play games on my mac much anymore doesn't seem to bother either of them.

[robco]

Blizzard does develop and release Windows and Mac versions simultaneously, however Windows versions still use DirectX. You can force WoW to run under OpenGL under Windows, but typically it runs under DirectX. I also doubt that most devs are using VB, that's just a cheap shot. Windows supports most of the same languages OS X does and depends on the developer. I could also fault Apple for yanking Cocoa support in Java. It was also a brilliant move on MS's part bringing DirectX to the Xbox and 360, makes porting between the two relatively easy.
Apple could help by throwing some resources at OpenGL to bring it up to parity with DirectX, provide better documentation and developer tools and better optimize OS X. But it is a chicken and egg problem. As long as most of Apple's consumer machines are unsuitable for gaming, there's not much market and not much incentive for devs to spend the resources to create a Mac version.
Perhaps Steve is telling me to go get an iLife? Perhaps I should be spending more time out taking pictures, shooting movies, burning DVDs and creating really awful websites and learn to play an instrument.

[DisabledTrucker]

{quote:title=robco wrote:}
snip... Perhaps Steve is telling me to go get an iLife? Perhaps I should be spending more time out taking pictures, shooting movies, burning DVDs and creating really awful websites and learn to play an instrument.{quote}

I'd have to agree wholeheartedly with that last statement...

That aside, OpenGL already has full support in the recent graphics cards, whereas with DirectX it takes a new graphics card to fully support it's features. Granted Apple could do more but, as I already said, until you see a major gaming company produce a "blockbuster" game for the platform, your not going to see Apple make any strides in that area. The media conglomerates using them for media production is why they cater to them. Apples are fully capable of competing in a decent manner against other platforms if the games are written to be used on them and not using a layer to translate the code to do so, such as EA and Blizzards game use. (Okay there are a few and far between that use OpenGL already but, as in WoW, it's not the native platform that it's running on anymore, it's just a port over to it.) Granted I was being a tad facetious with using Visual Basic as an example, they do use C to some extent in the games but, a lot of them can be produced with Visual Basic just as easily with the engines they are using. For that matter a lot of it can be scripted using a scripting language instead, using those engines. Yes, Apple does have a couple of companies that create an engine that can do basically the same thing too, I'm not saying they don't, I'm saying that these major studios are hiring people that can barely program at all to create the games and therefore they have to use the easiest of ways to do that, in this day in age, that happens to be Visual Basic or one of the other Visual programming tools from Microsoft to do it. Which I guess is fine since OpenGL runs just as well on Windows as it does on Macs and every other platform, including Linux, the problem lies in that they aren't programming their games for OpenGL but, using the API DirectX instead. Again because of the ease of use on the part of the kids they get to do the coding. They don't have to actually do any thinking to put a game together when using DirectX, all they have to do is turn on a bit in the code.

Granted it's a great idea to do things that way but, you leave out the rest of the world whom don't use Windows based systems in the process. Okay sure Windows is on over 50% of the computers, there is still the rest of them that are now being left out because of this. (I'm not getting into specific figures I know it's actually higher currently for Windows but everyone knows that Windows isn't the only one out there and more specifically that they are increasingly losing ground these days, especially with governments such as the US switching from using it to other platforms.) Lets say that Mac OS has 45% of what's left and Linux 40% with the rest of the BSD's and everyone else taking up the other 15%. (I believe that's close to the last figures I seen.) Okay now you got OpenGL on at least Windows, Macs, and the Unix's, that's about 90% of the computers, whereas DirectX is only on around 50%, that leaves out the other 40% of users. Granted companies think this is acceptable, I for one don't!

Doctors tell us we need ways to alleviate stress in our lives, well there are many ways to do this, getting out and doing things we like is one of them. Problem lies in that not everyone can get out or even wants to get out, (especially with the way things are today,) and ever increasingly people are turning to video games to relieve this stress in our lives. With this being the case, it would only make sense for studios to create games which could well be played on every platform, not just a specific one. Even your gaming consoles can do OpenGL, so you're not leaving them out at all. All it would take is someone like Alex Saint John to do something with the OpenGL like he did with DirectX to make it easier to program games for it. Then they would have a completely cross platform tool to use to create these games, and until they have something like this none of the major studios are interested in creating "blockbusters" using it. Apple's "Core" technology is a step in the right direction on it's part but, again your talking about platform specific API calls, again your in the same boat. If the major studios were to work together, they could each contribute and come up with a better tool to use with OpenGL and thus end up with something that would work on every platform, essentially killing off DirectX usage except for the dedicated Microsoft companies out there.

Problem is with all the money they are making, none of them are interested in doing this, all their interested in is lining their own pockets. I can't blame them really for that but, in the process they are alienating their future profits by not doing it. Sure the measly 10-15% increase in profits may not seem beneficial for those living in the right now attitude but, if they were to think in terms of future sales instead, they would more than pay for their efforts in the long run since that 10-15% would add up over time. And with the right game, that 10-15% could mean a butt load of cash. Imagine just how filled Blizzards pockets could have been had they released Halo 3 on the Mac and Linux at the same time they had released it on XBOX-360 and Windows. That $300 million could easily had been $400 had they only been cross platform from the start, I'm sorry that's not chump change in my book. (I know that's more than 15% but, it's also a realistic figure and even if it were only $30-45 million that's still not chump change in my book either.)

Granted it's not that simple to write one code and have it work on all platforms but, tweaking code for the others wouldn't be all that hard of work if they were all using the same API. Do you really think that Sony and Nintendo are using DirectX as well? They aren't and that's why the studios have to take so much time to release a game so they can "tweak" their code to work with all those platforms at the same time so as to get it out to as many as they can when it's released. Had the same games been written for OpenGL instead, they'd only have to do their "tweaking" for the hardware it's being run on, not the different API's being used in each and thus save in the long run. "It's much easier to just recompile the code for each device than it is to rewrite it to make it to work." (Even an EA programmer realized this as this was his words to me one time when I asked about why their games weren't on Mac/Linux systems as well. Problem was he went on to tell me that the Nintendo's and Playstations were also not using DirectX on their platforms as well but that they had tools designed to make it just as easy to program for them as there is for DirectX, whereas OpenGL/AL doesn't.) With OpenGL having pixel level control over it's graphics it has the best ability to make the best games, yet the studios just simply don't use it because they have to actually pay people more that can program in languages that can make use of it. Since most graphics cards handle OpenGL natively, it would be a lot faster too. Problems also lie in that they would have to also know the code base for the HID controllers as well as OpenAL for sound, which again would be much simpler to program for since they are basically all using the same instruction base in their categories, even if it took more coding on the programmers part to do it, they would then be more responsive and quicker than using an API such as DirectX.

I know my words on going on deaf ears though, I guess people are happy with the way things are, I for one am not one of those people. Yes, I have an XBOX-360 but, only because my Mac can't play "blockbuster" games on it natively. That $1200 I spent getting the XBOX-360 and all it's attachments, Apple didn't get on it's new toys. I could have easily spent that $1200 on the Apple TV and an iPod touch instead this year, had I not already spent it on the XBOX-360 the prior christmas. You multiply that by around say 15% of all console and their parts sales, and I'm sure Apple would be crying if they did the math. With it being hard for me to concentrate these days, I am working on my own "blockbuster" game using OpenGL/AL, the problem with it lies in that I may never be able to actually finish it with my degrading health. Should I ever get it where I can release it, I'm sure others would agree that I was right all along. I've not just said this in recent times either, I've said this since before DirectX come out back in the 80's. And no I don't want any help with my game, it's my legacy and my ticket to super stardom should I ever get it finished. (I'll either be praised as a GOD or laughed out of existence when it's finally released, either way I'll get my "15 minutes of fame".)

[robco]

MS makes the 360. To move 360s and make money off of game sales, they need exclusive titles. In this case, releasing H3 first as an exclusive title makes good business sense. Programmers also don't like reinventing the wheel every time. They like well-documented APIs. DirectX isn't some new kid on the block, it's on version 10 and is well documented. Creating tools to make development easier is a good thing. Part of the reason Sony is having a difficult time is that their dev tools aren't as good and they're expensive. MS's are free or very cheap. id Software makes a good deal of money off of licensing their game engines, as does Epic now with the Unreal engine. Blizzard also doesn't use Cider or any shortcuts. They start off developing cross-platform from the start. 80-90% of the code is exactly the same between both platforms.

Every business makes decisions. They calculate the cost to do a port vs. the sales. Apple sales are growing, but unfortunately, their growth has been primarily in laptops, mostly MacBooks. These are unsuitable for gaming, as is the mini. So while numbers are growing, the number of machines capable of playing new titles is still pretty low. Apple needs to do some work on the hardware end as well. The MBA bodes well as it shows that now that Apple is very stable financially and has a stable product line, Intel transition is finished and such, that they're willing to develop more niche products.