[utsumi]

Dear smax013:

(1) Many thanks for your extensive descriptions.

(2) I studied Leopard at Apple web site and am more tempted to use it on my PowerBook G4 ? such as Quick Look, Spaces, etc.

I wonder if one of the spaces can be the application of Tiger and the other space the application of Leopard.

(3) My internal hard disk has the capacity at 138 GB (available 76 GB and used 62 GB). It has following major folders;

(a) Applications (6.2 GB)
(b) Applications (Mac OS 9) (120 MB)
© Library (7.3 GB)
(d) System (1.3 GB)
(e) Users (44.2 GB) -- this is for my data files so that it can be moved to the third partition.

This means that my Tiger can be stored into a partition of 25 GB. Pls confirm. If it is OK, Leopard should be able to be stored in the same size of partition.

(4) Application programs (e.g., Microsoft Office, etc.) for each of those OS (Tiger and Leopard) would be stored into the Application folders in each partition of those OS, either Tiger or Leopard.

Does this means that I have to install it twice, one for the Tiger partition and the other for Leopard partition, as expending its account? Or, can I copy it from one partition to the other? My concern is such installation of application program may depend on the OS in its partition. If the application program has to stay with the OS in the partition, I have to have double size of hard disk for the same application program, one for Tiger and the other for Leopard.

(5) I use ?SuperDuper? to backup entire internal HD to a LaCie external HD of 250 GB every evening automatically. It is re-bootable. I think that the Tiger installation disk can make partitions non-destructively on the fly.? pls confirm.

I am very grateful to your valuable suggestions.

Best, Tak (utsumi@columbia.edu)

[macnuke]

K
I am outa this thread. I'll let smax talk you and walk you into certain death.


btw.. if it's a mounted disk... wether it's a partition or an actually disk..... you DO NOT have to install more than once. you can run it from whatever mounted disk or partition you install it on.

I still say that while smax may have the right of it in many ways... you are gunna regret....... multiple OS installs are a pain.
if you are having problems with the simple part of what you want to do, and judging by your repeated questions that smax so diligently answered, you are not going to be happy with it.


fortune to you.
yer gunna need much of it.

[smax013]

macnuke said:

btw.. if it's a mounted disk... wether it's a partition or an actually disk..... you DO NOT have to install more than once. you can run it from whatever mounted disk or partition you install it on.

I not sure if this is always true. I believe that there are some applicaitons that need to have support and/or configuration files in a particular location (i.e. the System folder or in the Library folder(s)). As such, this type of program could require it to be installed on each boot partition in order to run...otherwise, the needed files will not be in the right place. Having said that, it is much less of an issue than it is on Windoze.

[smax013]

utsumi said:

(2) I studied Leopard at Apple web site and am more tempted to use it on my PowerBook G4 — such as Quick Look, Spaces, etc.

I wonder if one of the spaces can be the application of Tiger and the other space the application of Leopard.

I will still maintain that you are MUCH better off not bothering with both Tiger and Leopard. Many of the new features of Leopard can be accomplished with third party applications. The function that is called Spaces has been available for quite a while by way of various third party applications that perform the same basic function. I think that you would be much better served by scrapping the dual boot idea and sticking with Tiger if you want/need OS 9 support. If you want Leopard, then I suggest completely dumping OS 9 and moving into the future. Considering the number of questions that you are asking, I think you are going to really struggle with a dual boot option.



And, no, you cannot run Tiger in one Space and Leopard in another Space. Switching between Tiger and Leopard will require a reboot...you cannot run both at the same time (at least not until Apple "unlocks" the Mac OS enough that someone can run it sufficiently in a virtual environment like Parallels or Fusion or something like it). Each is a completely seperate OS...and only one can run at a time.

utsumi said:

.

(3) My internal hard disk has the capacity at 138 GB (available 76 GB and used 62 GB). It has following major folders;

(a) Applications (6.2 GB)
(b) Applications (Mac OS 9) (120 MB)
© Library (7.3 GB)
(d) System (1.3 GB)
(e) Users (44.2 GB) -- this is for my data files so that it can be moved to the third partition.

This means that my Tiger can be stored into a partition of 25 GB. Pls confirm. If it is OK, Leopard should be able to be stored in the same size of partition.

Be careful with the Users folder. Not everything is necessarily movable. Each User has their own Library folder. This folder contains individual settings and support files for the OS and applications that are User specific (i.e. preference files for an applicaiton for THAT user's settings for that application or the User's email mailboxes, etc). I am pretty sure that moving that stuff will cause some problems. The only content that you should be moving from the User's folder are actual user documents (i.e. stuff from the Documents, Movies, Music, Pictures folders).



Based upon the information that you have provided, it would appear that a 25 GB partition would be fine for Tiger. My guess is that Leopard would similarly be fine, but I don't know for sure. I can say that Apple lists a minimum of 9 GB of disk space for Leopard. Tiger only required 3 GB of disk space (4 GB if you also installed the Developer Tools). This suggests that Leopard will take up more space and might require a partition bigger than 25 GB when combined with programs.

utsumi said:

(4) Application programs (e.g., Microsoft Office, etc.) for each of those OS (Tiger and Leopard) would be stored into the Application folders in each partition of those OS, either Tiger or Leopard.

Does this means that I have to install it twice, one for the Tiger partition and the other for Leopard partition, as expending its account? Or, can I copy it from one partition to the other? My concern is such installation of application program may depend on the OS in its partition. If the application program has to stay with the OS in the partition, I have to have double size of hard disk for the same application program, one for Tiger and the other for Leopard.

Depends on the application. Many applications will run off of only on install, not matter which OS you boot into.



There may be some where you have to install it twice so that the installer can put the appropriate support files in the appropriate places of the boot drive.

utsumi said:

(5) I use “SuperDuper” to backup entire internal HD to a LaCie external HD of 250 GB every evening automatically. It is re-bootable. I think that the Tiger installation disk can make partitions non-destructively on the fly.— pls confirm.

Nope. Disk Utility in Tiger does destructive partitioning. If you resize a partition using Disk Utility, it will need to wipe the entire disk. If you have a portion of unallocated hard drive (i.e. it has never been partitioned), then you should be able to allocate/format that partion without harming any other partition I believe, but I am not 100% sure...and that is not really a common situation.



I believe, however, that Leopard's Disk Utility can now do non-destructive partition operations. I don't know this for sure, so someone else will have to confirm as I am not likely to get around to installing Leopard myself in the immediate future (I have the disks, but I am not quite ready to upgrade yet). If not, then you can look to a program like iPartition. It does non-destructive partitioning.



Regardless, I should note that you should still definitely backup the computer prior to changing any partition, whether you are doing non-destructive partitioning or not. While in theory non-destructive partitioning will not harm any data, it is still an intensive disk operation...and intensive disk operations are inheritly dangerous and can go wrong. No sense taking the risk without a backup.





Now, let me try to be somewhat blunt. I strongly suggest that you forget about dual booting Tiger and Leopard. I suspect that it will be more trouble than it is worth for you, especially for the minimumal benefits that you will get out of it...and considering that you can likely achieve many of the new features of Leopard with third party programs. I would suggest that you either stick with Tiger only to get your OS 9 ability or dive into the future without OS 9 functionality by just going with Leopard alone.

[utsumi]

Dear smax013:

(1) Many thanks again for your informative response.

(2) I visited the web site of iPartition. It sounds very good, and I will purchase it, since the partitioning of my internal HD will make me easier and quicker to backup my actual pertinent data/files (which are not related with the system) frequently, and other system-oriented files/folders (which are in different partitions as mentioned before) less frequently.

At the web site, I learned that the size of the partition can be altered even after installing data, which is very neat, indeed!! (BTW, would you check with your Leopard installation disk if it has the similar capabilities? If so, I would not need to make double investment for the same feature/requirement, since I would need to purchase Leopard, too, anyway.)

(3) There is ?Account? in the System Preference.

I may assign Account A for using Tiger in the partition A, and Account B for using Leopard in the partition B, and letting both of Accounts A and B to access my actual pertinent data/file (in the partition C) mentioned above as using application programs which may be in the Application Folders in Partitions A and B.

By this scheme, can I switch around between them as clicking their names at the left side of iSpotlight at the right top corner of our screen? Or, do I still need to reboot each of the operating systems every time whenever I switch?

(4) Another (probably last resort) may be to use ?Target Disk Mode? as connecting my iBook on Tiger with my PowerBookG4 on Leopard through Firewire connection, so that I may be able to do copy-and-paste between the screens of iBook and PowerBookG4, and also can convert WordPerfect files to MS/WORD 2008 version files on iBook at my leisure time.

(5) As I said before, I have many WordPerfect files with important data, which conversion is a pain and neck operation.

This is because unfortunately, Spotlight of Tiger (and probably even of Leopard, too) do not search on those files, and therefore, I still have to rely on ?Retrieve It!? which was made by Claris many, many years ago ? with, of course, OS 9.

(6) I am awfully sorry for bothering you much, but this dialog have been clearing how to solve my trouble. Thanks a lot, indeed!!

Best, Tak (utsumi@columbia.edu)

[smax013]

utsumi said:

Dear smax013:


At the web site, I learned that the size of the partition can be altered even after installing data, which is very neat, indeed!! (BTW, would you check with your Leopard installation disk if it has the similar capabilities? If so, I would not need to make double investment for the same feature/requirement, since I would need to purchase Leopard, too, anyway.)

That is precisely what "non-destructive" partitioning is...being able to resize partitions with the data on the drive and NOT having to remove/wipe/erase the data to change the partitions (as I said before, you should still perform a back prior to doing ANY partitioning, whether non-destructive or not).



As to the Leopard installtion, I will eventually find out, but I am not ready to install Leopard just yet, so it will not be anytime soon. Thus, you should not rely on me doing testing for it at this point. And it is more than just "looking" at the install disk...I would actually need to monkey with some partitions with data on them to test it. I will eventually do it, but don't expect anything soon.

utsumi said:

(3) There is “Account” in the System Preference.

I may assign Account A for using Tiger in the partition A, and Account B for using Leopard in the partition B, and letting both of Accounts A and B to access my actual pertinent data/file (in the partition C) mentioned above as using application programs which may be in the Application Folders in Partitions A and B.

By this scheme, can I switch around between them as clicking their names at the left side of iSpotlight at the right top corner of our screen? Or, do I still need to reboot each of the operating systems every time whenever I switch?

Nope. Different accounts have ZERO to do with multiple OSs per se. You will have one account in Tiger and one in Leopard, but it will still require re-boots to change OSs. AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU CANNOT RUN TWO OSs AT THE SAME TIME...PERIOD (exception is some sort of emulator or virtual machine, but I know of NO virtual machine that allows someone to run any version of Mac OS X).

utsumi said:

(4) Another (probably last resort) may be to use “Target Disk Mode” as connecting my iBook on Tiger with my PowerBookG4 on Leopard through Firewire connection, so that I may be able to do copy-and-paste between the screens of iBook and PowerBookG4, and also can convert WordPerfect files to MS/WORD 2008 version files on iBook at my leisure time.

Target Disk Mode does not work the way you are thinking it does (as least by how you state things). Target Disk Mode basically turns your computer that is running in Target Disk Mode into a pure, dumb external hard drive and nothing more. It is NOT running an OS at all...just acting as a hard drive to the second computer.



What you might be thinking of is either file sharing or maybe even screen sharing. File sharing would be keeping Tiger running on the iBook so that you can use Classic/OS 9 and WordPerfect, but then running Leopard on the Powerbook with say Word 2008 or 2004 and when needed share the files between computers. Screen sharing/remote desktop would be that you could potentially actually display the contents of the iBook screen on your Powerbook screen and even control the iBook from the Powerbook. For an idea of screen sharing/remote desktop, take a look at this thread: [t-98606]

utsumi said:

(5) As I said before, I have many WordPerfect files with important data, which conversion is a pain and neck operation.

This is because unfortunately, Spotlight of Tiger (and probably even of Leopard, too) do not search on those files, and therefore, I still have to rely on “Retrieve It!” which was made by Claris many, many years ago — with, of course, OS 9.

This last message has caused me to think of another solution for you. You could consider running Tiger on one computer and Leopard on another computer. This could be Tiger on your iBook and Leopard on your Powerbook...or it could be Tiger on your Powerbook and Leopard on a new MacBook (the desire to get a new MacBook is what started you on this thread, after all). You could then have at a minimum file sharing between the two, but also look to maybe doing remote desktop running. Some sort of remote desktop is actually the one way that you could in essence have two OSs on one computer...you don't really have it, but you would in effect.



This would allow you to still do WordPerfect stuff on the older computer running Tiger, but also start "forcing" you into the future. You could force yourself to slowly start converting your WordPerfect files slowly to a new format...you would not need to do it all at once (i.e. jump in the deep end right away).



And this will get you moving in the direction of "modernizing". I still think ultimately your best bet is to just bite the bullet and convert those WordPerfect docs to a new word processor. As has been noted several times, you will eventually HAVE to do it. OS 9 is dead and gone. Relying on it for long term, mission critical stuff is not the wisest thing in the world as at some point it will be down right difficult, if not impossible, to get hardware that can run OS 9 and OS 9 applications. You are MUCH better of choosing to move forward rather than being forced to move forward at some point in the future when you will have not other options and it is some sort of "emergency" timeframe (i.e. your OS 9 machine dies and you cannot get a replacement).

utsumi said:

(6) I am awfully sorry for bothering you much, but this dialog have been clearing how to solve my trouble. Thanks a lot, indeed!!

Not a problem. I have learned that what is perfectly clear to me may not be perfectly clear to someone else, so sometimes it might take a while to get both to the same point/level.

[utsumi]

Dear smax013:

(1) Thanks again for your very informative response.

(2) What is the main difference between (a) File Sharing and (b) Screen Sharing?

I often connect my iBook with PowerBook as enabling ?Sharing? in the System Preference to get a file in the hard disk of iBook appeared on the screen of PowerBook.

Do I need to have a special software to do the Screen Sharing?

Where can I find the thread ?Screen Sharing Leopard with Panther?? I could not find it in Apple?s web site nor under Mac/HELP.

Can this be done through Internet, if I left iBook ON and connected to Internet?

Best, Tak (utsumi@columbia.edu)

[smax013]

utsumi said:

(2) What is the main difference between (a) File Sharing and (b) Screen Sharing?

I often connect my iBook with PowerBook as enabling “Sharing” in the System Preference to get a file in the hard disk of iBook appeared on the screen of PowerBook.

That is file sharing. File sharing is basically "putting" you files on your computer on the network for other computers to access/use. It is kind of turning your computer into a little server.



Screen sharing can either be considered just literally sharing the screen of one computer with another...you basically attach through the network from one computer to another and have what appears on the screen of the second computer appear on your computers screen. It can also extend to actually controlling the second computer...you would see the screen contents of the second computer and actually be able to control the second computer like you were actually sitting at the second computer even though you are sitting at your computer...basically like "remote control" of the second computer.

utsumi said:

Do I need to have a special software to do the Screen Sharing?

Yes and no. Depends on the computer. Leopard has screen sharing built into it. Thus, you would not need any "special" software to share a screen between two Macs running Leopard. It gets a little more messy with Tiger or Panther, etc.

utsumi said:

?

Where can I find the thread “Screen Sharing Leopard with Panther”? I could not find it in Apple’s web site nor under Mac/HELP.

It is a thread here on the MacWorld site. I put a link in the previous post...here it is again: [t-98606] Just click on the link.

utsumi said:

Can this be done through Internet, if I left iBook ON and connected to Internet?

Short answer is yes. Depending on your Internet connection, it might get a little complicated (has to do with a) if you are behind a firewall and b) do you have to deal with dynamic IP addresses or not).

[utsumi]

Dear smax013:

(1) When doing the screen sharing, can the second computer screen be in the one of SPACES of Leopard machine?

(2) I suppose that we can do copy-and-paste between those screens, can?t we?

(3) I will study more about the screen sharing at Apple?s web site, though it seems getting beyond of my comprehension. For instance, does the screen sharing different from remote desktop?

Best, Tak

[smax013]

utsumi said:

Dear smax013:

(1) When doing the screen sharing, can the second computer screen be in the one of SPACES of Leopard machine?

Yes, you should be able to put it in a Space...it is basically just an application running the screen sharing...so you should be able to assign that application window to a Space. I don't know sure as I have not played with Leopard, which means I have not "played" with either Spaces or Leopard's screen sharing.

utsumi said:

(2) I suppose that we can do copy-and-paste between those screens, can’t we?

I don't know. I suspect so, but as I have not "played" with Leopard's screen sharing, I cannot say for sure. I know that there are a lot of "remote desktop" type solutions out there and that some of them do offer that kind of functionality.

utsumi said:

Dear smax013:

(3) I will study more about the screen sharing at Apple’s web site, though it seems getting beyond of my comprehension. For instance, does the screen sharing different from remote desktop?

I don't know what the specific differences might be, if any. They are basically the same concept, but might be implimented differently. I have never used Apple's Remote Desktop program (too expensive to just get to "play with" and I did not really have the need)...and have yet to "play" with Leopard's screen sharing as I have not installed Leopard yet.

[FJackson]

Tak and everybody, I don't understand why you can't get a new Macbook, the cheapest Windows and whatever it takes to run it, and WordPerfect for Windows. Did you get a chance to find out if Wordperfect for Windows will open Mac files?

Otherwise, I'd be interested to know what you came up with. I may try Sheepsaver myself.

FJ

[FJackson]

Well that's weird, just stumbled upon this:

I've built a complete SheepShaver install, including everything needed to run, as well as the last version of WordPerfect and several utilities. To download this 243mb image, go to http://groups.yahoo..../wordperfectmac, to the Links section, to the "SheepShaver and Basilisk" folder, and click "SheepShaver-WordPerfect Install". It's about 20 minutes on a fast connection.

Enjoy,
John

at:
http://www.macosxhin...14879&lsrc=osxh

FJ

[Demonic_Rush]

Utsumi:
I simply MUST ask after reading this EPIC thread of confusion and determination: What exactly are these WordPerfect Documents holding that is SO dear and SOOO special that it can't be converted to RTF w/o much hassle.
I have a suggestion (rather, an idea of a sugestion) to help you out, but first I really must know wtf is in those files that are so special. MS Word is the gold standard of word processors, so I HIGHLY doubt there is something there that MS Word can't handle.

[utsumi]

Demonic_Rush:

(1) I have been using WordPerfect (WP) since the beginning of Mac.

I have many, many WP files which contains many important information.

(2) When I had discussions through this thread a few weeks ago, I was left by discussing colleagues that I had to convert my WP files into WORD of Microsoft, since the use of OS9 for WP in MacBook would be very difficult.

Converting thousands, thousands of those WP files to WORD would be daunting task, but I started to do it. However, I had to stop it, because I found that such conversion made some of important information were deleted or skipped during the operation.

Subsequently, I am now completely at a loss, and feel like a lonely orphan left by Steve Jobs of Apple.

(3) When there was a large demonstration of Leopard with MacBook by Apple people at Columbia University, I complained about the loss of OS9 in MacBook.

They then asked me if I am a lawyer. I asked him why. He said to me that many of lawyers still prefer to use WP, instead of WORD.

(4) I am avid user of Entourage since its beginning.

When they upgraded to 2008 version, I found that all of html formating in Entourage msg were lost when I copied it into WORD to make its pdf file. Therefore, I was forced to still use its 2004 version.

I had many, many phone talks with Microsoft/Office people about this issue and some similar ones, and they finally gave me up and gave me a phone number at which I could claim a money back. Although it has been upgraded recently, it still does not do what I want with the 2008 version of WORD.

For many years, I do not have good experience/impression with WORD -- several years ago, there was a very severe criticism on WORD appeared in the New York Times.

(5) I dismayed when I learned that its inventor earned more than one billion dollars and spent 20 to 40 million dollars for his excursion to space by Russian rocket.

Best, Tak